Brexit Referendum Superthread

FreudianSlippers

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Frankly, I'm not sure what the position pre-1997 has to do with anything?

It's all part of "Call me Dave" Cameron's project fear.

There was a border before 1997.... despite being in the EU.
Therefore the EU had nothing to do with the removal of said border.

Like elaborating on who Britain would attack or be attacked by thus sparking his predicted WW3.... Dave got a free pass on his make believe.

Regardless of whether a border is in any way related to EU membership, it seems logically flawed to leave the EU for inter alia immigration concerns and then to fail to have border checks on your one border with the EU. Would you disagree?

The alternative, as pointed out in PMQ, is to do these checks on people entering Britain from Northern Ireland, which as I pointed out would greatly anger me were I a UK citizen of any political leaning living in NI and perhaps more importantly I would wager it is probably unlawful.

BoJack Horseman

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

The alternative, as pointed out in PMQ, is to do these checks on people entering Britain from Northern Ireland, which as I pointed out would greatly anger me were I a UK citizen of any political leaning living in NI and perhaps more importantly I would wager it is probably unlawful.

What checks were done at the ROI/NI border prior to EU membership?

FreudianSlippers

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

The alternative, as pointed out in PMQ, is to do these checks on people entering Britain from Northern Ireland, which as I pointed out would greatly anger me were I a UK citizen of any political leaning living in NI and perhaps more importantly I would wager it is probably unlawful.

What checks were done at the ROI/NI border prior to EU membership?

Customs and identity checks at various military checkpoints. I'm still not quite sure what point you're attempting to make here in connection to what I have said? I hasten to put words in your mouth but is your point that because there weren't checks prior to EU membership that there can't be any in the future?

Bob24

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Regardless of whether a border is in any way related to EU membership, it seems logically flawed to leave the EU for inter alia immigration concerns and then to fail to have border checks on your one border with the EU. Would you disagree?

I would disagree in this particular case. The UK and Ireland do have the CTA, special rules in their national laws to let each other's citizen easily settle in the other country (i.e. this exists independently of the EU), and a special and historical relationship. Plus I doubt the British government or people want to do anything which could stir up memories of the troubles.

FreudianSlippers

It has absolutely nothing to do with the CTA or pre-EU state of affairs. Ireland is a member of the EU and with that membership comes other EU citizens (boo hiss "Eastern Europeans coming here and taking all our British jerbs!"), so it makes fundamentally no sense to on one hand complain that immigration from the EU is a significant reason for leaving and then on the other allow your only border with the EU to be left unchecked.

I'm struggling to understand why it's so difficult to see the wood from the trees here. Cameron said it as clear as day in PMQ and it makes sense. If you can just fly to Dublin and then drive to Belfast and pop over to Britain on the ferry from there without having to go through a border check, the whole argument of immigration as a reason for leaving is totally moot.

Therefore Cameron said you're left with two (undesirable) options:
1) Border checks between Ireland & NI;
2) Border checks between NI and Britain (arguably more undesirable).

There seems to be some flawed thinking that border checks would mean anything but inconvenience for Ireland (island)-born citizens.

Bob24

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

It has absolutely nothing to do with the CTA or pre-EU state of affairs. Ireland is a member of the EU and with that membership comes other EU citizens (boo hiss "Eastern Europeans coming here and taking all our British jerbs!"), so it makes fundamentally no sense to on one hand complain that immigration from the EU is a significant reason for leaving and then on the other allow your only border with the EU to be left unchecked.

You have to differentiate border control (crossing the border) and immigration (settling in the country and working) though. Britain could have a border free travel area with Ireland and allow EU citizens to enter its territory freely as tourists so that the spend money and UK citizens enjoy the same right when visiting Europe, but start requiring they obtain work permits if they wish to settle and take employment. That would be a massive change addressing leave voter's concerns that jobs are being taken from them (whether those concerns are misguided or not is another story). Implementing such a change would require a Brexit as it would clearly be in breach of the directive of free movement, but would not require to suppress the CTA.

Not I am not commenting on whether this would be beneficial for the UK or accepted by the EU, just saying that from the UK's perspective it would not be that illogical to leave the EU and keep the CTA if the goal is to control the number of EU workers in the UK (your "Eastern Europeans coming here and taking all our British herbs!").

BoJack Horseman

Jezza struggling with what he thinks & what he is supposed to say.

https://youtu.be/oVQew5SG-Us

Groop

The UK will have control over the fishing teritories also, like the Faroe islands which huge exclusion zone and manage theyre fish stocks in thier own way, thats beneficial to thier own economy. id like to see uk exit to see what happens and how they benefit or not. Maybe we should bring our own fishing rights back, and actually have a fishing industry develop.

Hasnt there bieng a free movement agreement with Ireland and the UK for decades?, surely that wont change at all if they exit.

Sam Russell

Groop wrote: »

Hasnt there bee a free movement agreement with Ireland and the UK for decades?, surely that wont change at all if they exit.

The free movement is very old and only applies to Irish citizens and UK subjects. I knew a Chinese woman who was born in China but lived in HK from the age of two, but her husband was born in Hong Kong. Both were living in Dublin. He got a job in Edinburgh with no problems as he had a UK passport (HK version), but she was not allowed to go to Scotland as she needed a visa. Nothing was there to stop her going, but if caught, she would be illegal and suffer consequences. She chose to stay in Dublin.

Ireland has a power of veto in the nature of the institution of the European Commission's negotiations with Britain, in the unlikely event of an exit.

Ireland should insist that an open border between NI & the Republic be a fundamental principle (although customs checks would be required), otherwise it will not allow a negotiation to proceed.

mansize

Were the CTA (and residency rights and benefits associated with it) to continue, what would stop EU citizens freely moving to Ireland and becoming Irish citizens (as is their right) then move to the UK under CTA?

If there is a Brexit the CTA cannot remain as it is now

Bob24

mansize wrote: »

Were the CTA (and residency rights and benefits associated with it) to continue, what would stop EU citizens freely moving to Ireland and becoming Irish citizens (as is their right) then move to the UK under CTA?

If there is a Brexit the CTA cannot remain as it is now

The right for Irish citizens to settle in the UK is not really part of the CTA.

The CTA is a border control policy (like the Schengen area) and the right for Irish citizens to settle is an immigration policy (like the EU directive for free movement).

Also while Ireland is fairly liberal in the way it is granting citizenship, it doesn't happen in a day and is not automatically granted. Not sure investing 5 years of their life working in a country which is not really the one they want to go to and then not even being sure of getting what they want is something many people would do in practise. You are right the UK would probably receive some "new Irish", but I doubt it would be in very significant numbers.

Burty330

Sorry if this has been answered already , but will Irish still be able to apply for a national insurance number to work in the UK after/if they vote leave?

Sam Russell

Burty330 wrote: »

Sorry if this has been answered already , but will Irish still be able to apply for a national insurance number to work in the UK after/if they vote leave?

If the vote is to leave, no-one knows what will happen with anything except that sterling will drop like a stone.

Everything is open to negotiation that will take years, possibly a decade. During this time, the uncertainty will cause a serious recession within the UK. After that, anything is possible but mostly bad for the EU and for the UK. If Scotland votes heavily to remain and England votes to leave, then the Scots (as already signalled) will look for a re-run of the Scotish referendum to leave the UK - this time to remain within the EU. [Last time, they were told if they leave the UK, they would have to leave the EU - now, if the vote is to leave the EU, they will be forced to leave the EU anyway even if they vote to remain - there is democracy for you].

Burty330

Sam Russell wrote: »

If the vote is to leave, no-one knows what will happen with anything except that sterling will drop like a stone.

Everything is open to negotiation that will take years, possibly a decade. During this time, the uncertainty will cause a serious recession within the UK. After that, anything is possible but mostly bad for the EU and for the UK. If Scotland votes heavily to remain and England votes to leave, then the Scots (as already signalled) will look for a re-run of the Scotish referendum to leave the UK - this time to remain within the EU. [Last time, they were told if they leave the UK, they would have to leave the EU - now, if the vote is to leave the EU, they will be forced to leave the EU anyway even if they vote to remain - there is democracy for you].

So i'm guessing a leave vote would not trigger an immediate curtailment on job seeker's into the country..

Such a huge decision that lies in the hands of people who seem to not know the what ramifications their vote will have on the future.

Bob24

Burty330 wrote: »

Such a huge decision that lies in the hands of people who seem to not know the what ramifications their vote will have on the future.

It's called democracy ;-)

Yes some voters will be ill-informed (though to be fair in this case absolutely non-one knows what the full ramifications would be). But on the other hand if you leave all the decisions to bureaucrats and never directly ask the people what they want on important choices, after a while those bureaucrats can forget they are there first and foremost to serve the interest of the the people, and citizens can feel they are losing control of their country's destiny.

oppenheimer1

Sam Russell wrote: »

The free movement is very old and only applies to Irish citizens and UK subjects. I knew a Chinese woman who was born in China but lived in HK from the age of two, but her husband was born in Hong Kong. Both were living in Dublin. He got a job in Edinburgh with no problems as he had a UK passport (HK version), but she was not allowed to go to Scotland as she needed a visa. Nothing was there to stop her going, but if caught, she would be illegal and suffer consequences. She chose to stay in Dublin.

Now and again you'll hear of Non-EU English language students getting nabbed on the enterprise train to/from Belfast.

Bob24

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Now and again you'll hear of Non-EU English language students getting nabbed on the enterprise train to/from Belfast.

Yep that's clearly a design flaw of the CTA. Having a common travel area without having a unified visa system doesn't really make sense.

mansize

Sam Russell wrote: »

If the vote is to leave, no-one knows what will happen with anything except that sterling will drop like a stone.

Everything is open to negotiation that will take years, possibly a decade. During this time, the uncertainty will cause a serious recession within the UK. After that, anything is possible but mostly bad for the EU and for the UK. If Scotland votes heavily to remain and England votes to leave, then the Scots (as already signalled) will look for a re-run of the Scotish referendum to leave the UK - this time to remain within the EU. [Last time, they were told if they leave the UK, they would have to leave the EU - now, if the vote is to leave the EU, they will be forced to leave the EU anyway even if they vote to remain - there is democracy for you].

The London Government told them they'd have to leave, Europe didnt comment, there is nothing to say that while rUK is organising exit, an independent Scotland couldnt remain an EU member- its not definite.

MadsL

Bob24 wrote: »

It's called democracy ;-)

Democratic? Speaking as a UK citizen expat; the UK in it's "wisdom" decided that ex-pats who have not registered to vote in the past 15 years are denied the right to vote. I purposefully didn't vote in political elections as I didn't live there, but voting to take away my EU citizenship rights without my vote is not what I would call democratic. 5 million ex-pats and only 200,000 of them qualified to vote.

Ironically there are planty of Irish citizens who do get a vote in this referendum.

Bob24

MadsL wrote: »

Democratic? Speaking as a UK citizen expat; the UK in it's "wisdom" decided that ex-pats who have not registered to vote in the past 15 years are denied the right to vote. I purposefully didn't vote in political elections as I didn't live there, but voting to take away my EU citizenship rights without my vote is not what I would call democratic. 5 million ex-pats and only 200,000 of them qualified to vote.

Ironically there are planty of Irish citizens who do get a vote in this referendum.

I think you have to separate the concept of referendum itself (as opposed to a technocratic decision) from concerns about who gets voting rights.

I would agree on both your points: on something like this which very much has to do with nationality, every British citizen in voting age should be allowed to cast a ballot no matter what, and no non-British citizen should be allowed to vote. But it is more a technicality which the UK should have debated rather than an argument against the idea of a referendum itself.

MadsL

MadsL wrote: »

Democratic? Speaking as a UK citizen expat; the UK in it's "wisdom" decided that ex-pats who have not registered to vote in the past 15 years are denied the right to vote. I purposefully didn't vote in political elections as I didn't live there, but voting to take away my EU citizenship rights without my vote

You want to vote for the future of individuals in a country where you have not lived, or paid any taxes, for 15 years?

That's democratic to you?

No representation without taxation sounds a lot more democratic, if you ask me. Citizenship implies obligations, and not just privileges.

Bob24

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

You want to vote for the future of individuals in a country where you have not lived, or paid any taxes, for 15 years?

That's democratic to you?

No representation without taxation sounds a lot more democratic, if you ask me. Citizenship implies obligations, and not just privileges.

To be fair if I was a British citizen living elsewhere in the EU I wouldn't be too impressed not to be allowed to vote, given that the result could actually have a very big impact on my personal life. And because someone is not living in the UK anymore doesn't mean they are not part of the British nation of making a positive contribution to Britain anymore.

MadsL

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

You want to vote for the future of individuals in a country where you have not lived, or paid any taxes, for 15 years?

That's democratic to you?

The very reason I dropped off the electoral register, not paying taxes I was happy to have no voice, which is your point. However this vote is not about 'local' issues, it is the removal of the benefits of EU citizenship over which now I have no say. That strikes me as a tough penalty for removing myself from petty party politics.

Some of those individuals are my family.

No representation without taxation sounds a lot more democratic, if you ask me. Citizenship implies obligations, and not just privileges.

What obligations do expats have?

Bob24 wrote: »

To be fair if I was a British citizen living elsewhere in the EU I wouldn't be too impressed not to be allowed to vote, given that the result could actually have a very big impact on my personal life. And because someone is not living in the UK anymore doesn't mean they are not part of the British nation of making a positive contribution to Britain anymore.

The issue basically is that the UK doesn't give a toss about it's diaspora.

A Dub in Glasgo

Actually, the UK offers far better diaspora voting rights than Ireland as an example

MadsL

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Actually, the UK offers far better diaspora voting rights than Ireland as an example

Sorry for your troubles, maybe those forced to leave during the bust would not have returned FF to political significance.

Bob24

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Actually, the UK offers far better diaspora voting rights than Ireland as an example

I think Ireland's problem is that it is willing to hand-out citizenship to more Americans that Irish people actually living in Ireland ;-) (some of those who have never been to Ireland and don't have current connections with Ireland)

This makes unconditional voting rights for citizens voting abroad difficult.

But most other European countries are different and let their citizens vote from abroad.

Sam Russell

Bob24 wrote: »

To be fair if I was a British citizen ......

There are no British citizens - they are all subjects - of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second [who is largely of German descent with a German/Greek husband - can't get more British than that!].

A Dub in Glasgo

Bob24 wrote: »

But most other European countries are different and let their citizens vote from abroad.

and the UK does as well and is quite generous as well

Who can register as an overseas voter?

If you are a UK citizen living abroad, you can apply to be an overseas voter.

You must have been registered to vote in the UK in the last 15 years and be eligible to vote in UK Parliamentary general elections and European Parliamentary elections.

If you were too young to register when you left the UK, you can still register as an overseas voter. You can do this if your parent or guardian was registered to vote in the UK, as long as you left the UK no more than 15 years ago.

Bob24

Sam Russell wrote: »

There are no British citizens - they are all subjects - of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second [who is largely of German descent with a German/Greek husband - can't get more British than that!].

Well it's a bit technical and I am not sure very relevant to the discussion, but I can see on their website the UK government is definitely using the term British citizen: https://www.gov.uk/types-of-british-nationality/british-citizenship