Brexit Referendum Superthread

First Up

Nody wrote:

Not directed to me but I'd argue the Iron Lady in the top position with Blair in second or third position.

Thatcher certainly changed the UK more than any. Blair helped Labour occupy the middle ground that Thatcher's Tories had vacated and that went well for them for a bit. But a look at the state of them now shows his legacy.

I always thought Blair a glib opportunist.

Inquitus

First Up wrote: »

Thatcher certainly changed the UK more than any. Blair helped Labour occupy the middle ground that Thatcher's Tories had vacated and that went well for them for a bit. But a look at the state of them now shows his legacy.

I always thought Blair a glib opportunist.

It's funny how I'd now take Thatcher and Reagan over the muppet incumbents in both countries today.....

Sam Russell

First Up wrote: »

Thatcher certainly changed the UK more than any.

She certainly did change Britain, but not for the good. Possibly the most divisive leader in the last 70 years. May models herself on Thatcher. Thatcher never had more than 42% of the popular vote, while May's party achieved just 37%.

Lets look at her achievements. British car industry - closed. Coal industry - closed. Steel industry - closed. Shipbuilding - closed. Manufacturing nearly non-existant now. The North of England - closed.

Council houses - sold off cheap, with no further built. House prices - through the roof so now young people cannot buy, particularly in London where foreign buyers have bought up much of the property and keep it empty.

Soft regulation of the financial market, begun by Thatcher, led to the 2008 crash. Certainly part of her legacy.

All public services privatized at great cost to the state finances. She did not privatize the railways because she reckoned it could not be done - but Major did and what a disaster.

The seeds sowed by Thatcher, and Thatcherism still haunt the land - and spawned anti-EU sentiment that led to Brexit.

Professor Moriarty

Nody wrote:

Not directed to me but I'd argue the Iron Lady in the top position with Blair in second or third position.

Thatcher was too right wing. Blair's Third Way was exactly what Britain needed. People say that his record on Iraq erases everything else but context is everything. For example, Thatcher's Falklands jaunt was opportunism and jingoism at its finest. Not to mention her attitude to Northern Ireland.

Lemming

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Thatcher was too right wing. Blair's Third Way was exactly what Britain needed. People say that his record on Iraq erases everything else but context is everything. For example, Thatcher's Falklands jaunt was opportunism and jingoism at its finest. Not to mention her attitude to Northern Ireland.

Indeed, it should be pointed out that had the South Atlantic crisis not occurred, she would not have been returned to office as prior to the Argentine invasion she was facing very poor approval ratings. The Falkland Islands conflict saved her political career.

She did one thing right - if not popular - during her tenure (if you exclude the Falklands which was simply a case of being the person in the hot-seat at the time) which was to stand up to the unions at the turn of the 80s.

First Up

Sam Russell wrote: »

She certainly did change Britain, but not for the good. Possibly the most divisive leader in the last 70 years. May models herself on Thatcher. Thatcher never had more than 42% of the popular vote, while May's party achieved just 37%.

Lets look at her achievements. British car industry - closed. Coal industry - closed. Steel industry - closed. Shipbuilding - closed. Manufacturing nearly non-existant now. The North of England - closed.

Council houses - sold off cheap, with no further built. House prices - through the roof so now young people cannot buy, particularly in London where foreign buyers have bought up much of the property and keep it empty.

Soft regulation of the financial market, begun by Thatcher, led to the 2008 crash. Certainly part of her legacy.

All public services privatized at great cost to the state finances. She did not privatize the railways because she reckoned it could not be done - but Major did and what a disaster.

The seeds sowed by Thatcher, and Thatcherism still haunt the land - and spawned anti-EU sentiment that led to Brexit.

I am not here to defend Thatcher - obnoxious woman - but she made far more fundamental and longer lasting changes to Britain than Blair. I would not agree with everything she did but facing down the unions and recognising that some industries - such as coal and steel - were not sustainable were important building blocks in putting in place a far more enlightened economic strategy than the one she inherited. Yes some old industries are gone but they were going one way or another. Britain's current prosperity owes a lot to her.

She was also a strong advocate of EU membership - despite her many criticisms of it as she understood where Britain's future lay in a globalised world. She would never have participated in the idiocy of Brexit.

Professor Moriarty

Lemming wrote: »

Indeed, it should be pointed out that had the South Atlantic crisis not occurred, she would not have been returned to office as prior to the Argentine invasion she was facing very poor approval ratings. The Falkland Islands conflict saved her political career.

She did one thing right - if not popular - during her tenure (if you exclude the Falklands which was simply a case of being the person in the hot-seat at the time) which was to stand up to the unions at the turn of the 80s.

Many would argue that the Falklands crisis was provoked by the Tories. It turned her popularity and electoral prospects around.

Yeah, the unions did need to be brought to heel but she went much too far. Apart from taking on the unions, which was a mixed bag of success and failure, she was a vicious right winger who did serious long term damage to Britain.

Sam Russell

First Up wrote: »

I am not here to defend Thatcher - obnoxious woman - but she made far more fundamental and longer lasting changes to Britain than Blair. I would not agree with everything she did but facing down the unions and recognising that some industries - such as coal and steel - were not sustainable were important building blocks in putting in place a far more enlightened economic strategy than the one she inherited. Yes some old industries are gone but they were going one way or another. Britain's current prosperity owes a lot to her.

She was also a strong advocate of EU membership - despite her many criticisms of it as she understood where Britain's future lay in a globalised world. She would never have participated in the idiocy of Brexit.

I would dispute most of that. She was a little Englander and shopkeepers daughter who assumed shopkeeper economics applied to national economics - which it does not. She despised the poor, like many of her new found Tory friends.

She had a great intellect but misunderstood social context. Unions = bad, Private profit = good. Britain = Great. A nasty nasty nationalist that got power by accident and ruthlessly kept it. Watch her depiction in Spitting Image clips.

Not a nice person at all but much adored by a certain right wing element of the Tory party.

Bit cynical

One of the few things Thatcher was right about was the Euro.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/04/watch-margaret-thatcher-explain-why-the-euro-is-a-terrible-idea-in-1990/274768/

First Up

Sam Russell wrote: »

I would dispute most of that. She was a little Englander and shopkeepers daughter who assumed shopkeeper economics applied to national economics - which it does not. She despised the poor, like many of her new found Tory friends.

She had a great intellect but misunderstood social context. Unions = bad, Private profit = good. Britain = Great. A nasty nasty nationalist that got power by accident and ruthlessly kept it. Watch her depiction in Spitting Image clips.

Not a nice person at all but much adored by a certain right wing element of the Tory party.

Not her fault where she was born or who to. "Little Englander" usually refers to someone with no interest or affinity with anywhere else. Thatcher was a nationalist but she also a major driver of the single market and of the Single European Act. She saw those as being hugely in Britain's interest so I guess its possible to be a British nationalist and a committed European - something the current crop seem incapable of understanding.

ancapailldorcha

First Up wrote: »

Not her fault where she was born or who to. "Little Englander" usually refers to someone with no interest or affinity with anywhere else. Thatcher was a nationalist but she also a major driver of the single market and of the Single European Act. She saw those as being hugely in Britain's interest so I guess its possible to be a British nationalist and a committed European - something the current crop seem incapable of understanding.

I think her biggest issue was that she expected the markets to improve the UK when she decimated heavy industry and unions. They didn't leading to a feeling of being neglected which contributed to a Leave vote last June.

Harry Palmr

Most of the things Thatcher is blamed/credited for instigating were in fact already in train when she took power - decline of metal and coal based industry and shift towards the tertiary economy, selling off of council houses, etc.

First Up

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I think her biggest issue was that she expected the markets to improve the UK when she decimated heavy industry and unions. They didn't leading to a feeling of being neglected which contributed to a Leave vote last June.

She didn't decimate heavy industry. She recognised that there was no point in continuing to prop it up, when it was obvious that it had no future in the UK.

It will be interesting to see how long it takes Trump to reach the same conclusion about the US.

CrabRevolution

I'm loathe to say anything good about Thatcher, but while she hastened its demise, the coal industry in the UK was in a death spiral long before she took power. This is coal mining jobs vs. year, from wikipedia.



As I've said before, it's strange seeing commentary about Brexit which seeks to connect 2 totally separate issues, like "such a town in Yorkshire has been devastated since the local mine closed in 1980, so it's only natural they voted to leave the EU".

I'd love to know what they expect to happen to that mine now that the EU are out of the picture. Will the seam be restocked with coal for them to mine? Will coal use make an inexplicable comeback despite decades of shrinking demand?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/05/10/britain-gets-no-power-from-coal-for-first-time-on-record/

Sam Russell

CrabRevolution wrote: »

I'm loathe to say anything good about Thatcher, but while she hastened its demise, the coal industry in the UK was in a death spiral long before she took power. This is coal mining jobs vs. year, from wikipedia.



As I've said before, it's strange seeing commentary about Brexit which seeks to connect 2 totally separate issues, like "such a town in Yorkshire has been devastated since the local mine closed in 1980, so it's only natural they voted to leave the EU".

Looking at that graph - she was PM from 1979 till 1990. Hmm, again, what did she do to the coal industry? 250,000 jobs to zero in that time.

Her EU enthusiasm should be seen by her attitude to all things EU - 'how can we get the most out but put the least in'?

First Up

Sam Russell wrote:

Looking at that graph - she was PM from 1979 till 1990. Hmm, again, what did she do to the coal industry? 250,000 jobs to zero in that time.

UK coal industry was in decline since the 1960's.

KingBrian2

She shut down all the factories and declared war on the Unions. You can't expect to get anywhere when you pick fights with the Unions. An agreement should have been reached like European counterparts did but even then it is far better to have good relations with the Unions than what Mrs Thatcher did.

Sam Russell

First Up wrote: »

UK coal industry was in decline since the 1960's.

Yes but completely shut down by Thatcher. Not much better with British Leyland. Nor with Liverpool.

Poll tax was another magnificent attempt at voter suppression that led to massive riots and its eventual abandonment.

She was not in favour of the EEC becoming any more than a trading bloc, so she would have been on the side of Brexit - no question about that.

catbear

Sam Russell wrote: »

She was not in favour of the EEC becoming any more than a trading bloc, so she would have been on the side of Brexit - no question about that.

she even attempted to hinder German reunification.

I reckon the UK could never handle its post cold war diminished role and started its departure by dropping out of ERM.

First Up

Sam Russell wrote:

Yes but completely shut down by Thatcher. Not much better with British Leyland. Nor with Liverpool.

Her policy was to stop propping up failed industries. She didn't completely shut down the coal industry; she let it fail naturally as alternative energy souces took over. Some of it continued under Major but it eventually faded away.

Sam Russell wrote:

She was not in favour of the EEC becoming any more than a trading bloc, so she would have been on the side of Brexit - no question about that.

She was a leading advocate of the single market and she would be horrified with Brexit.

catbear

First Up wrote: »

She was a leading advocate of the single market and she would be horrified with Brexit.

In her own words...

It's your job, the job of business, to gear yourselves up to take the opportunities which a single market of nearly 320 million people will offer.
Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power[fo 4] of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people.
Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it.
It's not a dream.[fo 5] It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.

John Major was a shadow compared to Thatcher and May is merely a sock puppet.

CrabRevolution

Sam Russell wrote: »

Looking at that graph - she was PM from 1979 till 1990. Hmm, again, what did she do to the coal industry? 250,000 jobs to zero in that time.

Her EU enthusiasm should be seen by her attitude to all things EU - 'how can we get the most out but put the least in'?

Like I said, she certainly hastened the coal industry's demise, but 400'000 jobs were lost between ~1958 and 1970 anyway.

There's a slight levelling off in the graph from 1973 on as the oil crisis hit and coal became slightly more economical, but the long term trend indicated that coal would never survive into the 21st century as a major concern.

Sam Russell

CrabRevolution wrote: »

Like I said, she certainly hastened the coal industry's demise, but 400'000 jobs were lost between ~1958 and 1970 anyway.

There's a slight levelling off in the graph from 1973 on as the oil crisis hit and coal became slightly more economical, but the long term trend indicated that coal would never survive into the 21st century as a major concern.

Poland has loads of coal which we import into Moneypoint. Many profitable pits in the UK were closed - out of spite.

catbear

Sam Russell wrote: »

Poland has loads of coal which we import into Moneypoint. Many profitable pits in the UK were closed - out of spite.

I don't think it was that simple. Polish coal mining was mostly open pit which was way cheaper and safer than the UK english pits.

First Up

Sam Russell wrote:

Poland has loads of coal which we import into Moneypoint. Many profitable pits in the UK were closed - out of spite.

Nothing to do with "spite" - simple economics. UK buyers of coal were buying it from cheaper sources and alternative energy sources were getting ever cheaper.

The Scargill nonsense was King Canute stuff. The NUM was acting the maggot long before Thatcher.

KingBrian2

Sam Russell wrote: »

She was not in favour of the EEC becoming any more than a trading bloc, so she would have been on the side of Brexit - no question about that.

None of those countries were in favour of the EU as envisaged nowadays. France originally wanted Algeria to be in the Union instead of Britain or Ireland and the Danes were also reluctant to join. She was not the only European leader to disagree with the European Community she was the first to take a more forceful case against European diktats. The language of UKIP follows this template.

First Up

KingBrian2 wrote:

None of those countries were in favour of the EU as envisaged nowadays. France originally wanted Algeria to be in the Union instead of Britain or Ireland and the Danes were also reluctant to join. She was not the only European leader to disagree with the European Community she was the first to take a more forceful case against European diktats. The language of UKIP follows this template.

Do you know many institutions or countries following the same policies now as they did in the late 1950's?

Thatcher wasn't slow to air her criticisms of Brussels but she understood the value of the EU - to the UK and everyone else. UKIP don't. Thatcher would have squashed Farage like the insect he is. She would never have indulged UKIP or reduced the issue to an idiotic binary referendum.

catbear

KingBrian2 wrote: »

France originally wanted Algeria to be in the Union instead of Britain or Ireland and the Danes were also reluctant to join

Pre 62 Algeria was part of France. Not a colony or territory but actually an internal part of France itself.

I can't see France calling for Algeria's inclusion after the bloody war of independence that saw a million flee back to the French homeland.

KingBrian2

catbear wrote: »

Pre 62 Algeria was part of France. Not a colony or territory but actually an internal part of France itself.

I can't see France calling for Algeria's inclusion after the bloody war of independence that saw a million flee back to the French homeland.

Back then France had different policies. The EEC was designed to contain Germany and Britain was still a competitor. The point i'm making is that Thatcher never wanted the UK in a centralized Europe controlled by one of the big two France or Germany and France was okay with that.

Calina

But it does not matter a damn what Thatcher wanted 30 years ago. That was thirty years ago and this is now. She is dead for God's sake.

What is this tendency people have to fetishize the past and wonder what long dead people would be doing? It is bad enough to be listening to was it for this the men of 1916 died and how Pearse wouldn't have stood for something the interlocutor doesn't like but you are doing it to Thatcher? Projecting onto dead people? Are you all politiconecrophiliacs?

Is it in the UK's interest to Brexit? All other things remaining equal, it is not economically wise, no. But the Brexit campaigners scream blue murder about how it is not about economics and expect the EU to make its decision purely about economics.

But it is nothing other than fantasy to be projecting your ideas and dreams onto Margaret Thatcher because she is dead. The youth of the UK broadly voted in favour of remaining in the EU. Perhaps more attention could be given to their hopes and wants. After all they will be the ones living with this decision. Look to the future and stop second guessing dead people.