Brexit Referendum Superthread

MadsL

Sam Russell wrote: »

There are no British citizens - they are all subjects - of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second [who is largely of German descent with a German/Greek husband - can't get more British than that!].

Errr...no.

https://www.gov.uk/types-of-british-nationality/british-subject

Sam Russell

MadsL wrote: »

Errr...no.

https://www.gov.uk/types-of-british-nationality/british-subject

Now I did not realise they had a category of Citizen. Mind you, their explanation is not very clear, but I think it refers to those people who are from outside the British Isles.

Trompette

Do you know this guy?
He is very clever and clear-sighted about the EU polls..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-6WkmxlfOY&feature=youtu.be

BoJack Horseman

Boris does a good job....
.... terrible resolution on the video though.

stefanovich

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Boris does a good job....
.... terrible resolution on the video though.

Incredible reaction from the crowd. You certainly get an idea about which side is more passionate.

They are saying that inclement weather on the day will go in leave's favour. Imagine that. Not voting because you might get a bit damp.

BoJack Horseman

stefanovich wrote: »

They are saying that inclement weather on the day will go in leave's favour. Imagine that. Not voting because you might get a bit damp.

Apparently there is no data to support that.

Poor weather was a thing back in the day when vehicle ownership was low & more likely among the middle class..... The meme has survived without it being statistically relevant (according to podcast I listened to yesterday).

gandalf

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Boris does a good job....
.... terrible resolution on the video though.

I thought he was dreadful. Look beyond the sound bites and he really said nothing of substance at all. I thought the Scottish MP on the Remain side was excellent and really cut through alot of the crap.

I definitely think the crowd in the arena were more vocal on the leave side alright. Logically I cannot believe that we are looking at the chance the UK will vote to leave. These people are playing Russian Roulette with their futures given the unknown that they are launching themselves into. It appears that immigration has been the driving factor in the whole debate which is interesting as Britain's success over the years has been built on the backs of the immigrants who flowed into the country.

mansize

Ruth Davidson (Con MSP) was excellent for Remain as was Sadiq Khan

https://twitter.com/sunny_hundal/status/745366091988344832

mansize

Gary Linekar comes out for Remain on Twitter

Bob24

It's interesting to read people's comments on the debate. Basically posters who have came across as pro-leave think leave speakers performed well, and posters who have came across as pro-remain think the remain speakers performed well.

It shows one thing to me: the divide is very deep because leaving aside the actual quality of the talkers and the arguments, reality itself is dividing a population composed of people who have different personal interests. What remain campaigners are saying (no matter how greatly or poorly expressed) just doesn't click with people who want to leave because they find it irrelevant to their personal situation, and on the other end of the spectrum people who want to remain are dismissing all the arguments from the leave campaign because in their personal context they find them either irrelevant or secondary compared to consequence of a departure from the EU.

Rjd2

mansize wrote: »

Ruth Davidson (Con MSP) was excellent for Remain as was Sadiq Khan

https://twitter.com/sunny_hundal/status/745366091988344832

Both were very good and I thought leave were erratic. This is from someone who thought they nailed the ITV debate last time around.

However despite a poorish effort, the defining image of the debate for many will be Boris getting a standing ovation, like him or not, but he really clicks with people.

LiamoSail

gandalf wrote: »

I thought he was dreadful. Look beyond the sound bites and he really said nothing of substance at all.

Your average knuckle dragged is unlikely to look beyond that though, and that's exactly the market that the leave campaign both target and appeal to

Wanderer78

Ah I think they'll stay. I think program terrify has done enough

smjm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Ah I think they'll stay. I think program terrify has done enough

Agree with you - and I don't even think the vote will be that close. I'm guessing 60/40 in favour of Remain. The saddest part of the whole thing is the standard of the debate. Shockingly bad from both sides.

ancapailldorcha

smjm wrote: »

Agree with you - and I don't even think the vote will be that close. I'm guessing 60/40 in favour of Remain. The saddest part of the whole thing is the standard of the debate. Shockingly bad from both sides.

Given the similar tones adopted for the Scottish independence referendum and general elections along with the rise of people like Donald Trump I'm given to believe that this is simply the new "business as usual" for politics.

smjm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Given the similar tones adopted for the Scottish independence referendum and general elections along with the rise of people like Donald Trump I'm given to believe that this is simply the new "business as usual" for politics.

Indeed. Sad state of affairs!

Jelle1880

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Ah I think they'll stay. I think program terrify has done enough

Program Terrify ?

You mean like this ?

ancapailldorcha

mansize wrote: »

It's the switcheroo! We are the victims. Don't call us racist but you are SJWs with safe spaces lol

This isn't the forum for this. Please try and post more constructively.

Wanderer78

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Program Terrify ?

You mean like this?

good point. you have to realise, both sides are actually full of s*it. nobody knows what would happen if a country leaves the eu as its never happened before, but if you were to believe the stay campaign, leaving would cause a zombie apocalypse! the whole campaign is a bit of a joke, likes others have said, our election campaigns are a bit of a joke at this stage. all scare tactics. i think this referendum is showing something far more interesting though, its showing many people are extremely unhappy with the way the whole eu is being run as it is. i personally think it will collapse if major reforms are not implemented and soon. im also finding it rather disturbing that we all now think its ok to butt into each others political campaigns. if the shoe was on the other foot, id be telling other countries to butt out! is this what democracy is now!

Sam Russell

Wanderer78 wrote: »

good point. you have to realise, both sides are actually full of s*it. nobody knows what would happen if a country leaves the eu as its never happened before, but if you were to believe the stay campaign, leaving would cause a zombie apocalypse! the whole campaign is a bit of a joke, likes others have said, our election campaigns are a bit of a joke at this stage. all scare tactics. i think this referendum is showing something far more interesting though, its showing many people are extremely unhappy with the way the whole eu is being run as it is. i personally think it will collapse if major reforms are not implemented and soon. im also finding it rather disturbing that we all now think its ok to butt into each others political campaigns. if the shoe was on the other foot, id be telling other countries to butt out! is this what democracy is now!

I remember Nigel Farage coming over here to campaign over Lisbon.

Jelle1880

Wanderer78 wrote: »

good point. you have to realise, both sides are actually full of s*it. nobody knows what would happen if a country leaves the eu as its never happened before, but if you were to believe the stay campaign, leaving would cause a zombie apocalypse! the whole campaign is a bit of a joke, likes others have said, our election campaigns are a bit of a joke at this stage. all scare tactics. i think this referendum is showing something far more interesting though, its showing many people are extremely unhappy with the way the whole eu is being run as it is. i personally think it will collapse if major reforms are not implemented and soon. im also finding it rather disturbing that we all now think its ok to butt into each others political campaigns. if the shoe was on the other foot, id be telling other countries to butt out! is this what democracy is now!

True, both sides seem to have people that indulge in mud slinging, twisting the truth,...

But if Remain are backed by economic experts then I am a bit more inclined to believe their side of things.

It's similar to the Scottish Independence referendum in 2014. Both sides were insulting each other, mistruths and outright lies were spread as gospel but one side was actually backed by financial experts, who apparently were right as it turns out now.

There's a reason Leave is focusing in immigration above all and empty rhetoric like 'We want our country back'.

Wanderer78

Sam Russell wrote: »

I remember Nigel Farage coming over here to campaign over Lisbon.

lisbon, what a wonderful piece of democracy that was! im finding the whole eu, in particular the way in conducts its form of democracy, rather disturbing!

Jelle1880 wrote: »

True, both sides seem to have people that indulge in mud slinging, twisting the truth,...

But if Remain are backed by economic experts then I am a bit more inclined to believe their side of things.

It's similar to the Scottish Independence referendum in 2014. Both sides were insulting each other, mistruths and outright lies were spread as gospel but one side was actually backed by financial experts, who apparently were right as it turns out now.

There's a reason Leave is focusing in immigration above all and empty rhetoric like 'We want our country back'.

ive very little time for economic experts, many of them are employed by think tanks, pinch of salt, but brexit is not an easy decision for the folks of the uk. im sure both in and out options have positives and negatives, but the 'facts' are almost non-existent. i think this whole eu is in a lot of trouble. interesting to watch though but worrying all the same

Chips Lovell

As the Economist put it this week:

...the campaign is now locked into a domestic political logic that intersects only occasionally with reality.

But before we all get too smug about the poor quality of debate over in Britain, lets not forget our own fiasco of the first Lisbon referendum where we had people voting against things that weren't even in the treaty, such as conscription or abortion.

Nermal

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Both sides were insulting each other, mistruths and outright lies were spread as gospel but one side was actually backed by financial experts, who apparently were right as it turns out now.

'Financial experts' have a rather poor record at predicting the future.

A true financial expert would say that it is unknowable.

oscarBravo

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i think this referendum is showing something far more interesting though, its showing many people are extremely unhappy with the way the whole eu is being run as it is.

It's probably a great deal more accurate to say that many people are extremely unhappy with how they think the EU is being run. The overlap with how it's actually run is probably quite small.

BoJack Horseman

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Program Terrify ?

You mean like this ?

That thing about Turkey is a lie....

It's not a visa waiver, it's full membership

EU member states will meet June 30 to agree to open a new negotiating chapter with Turkey on finance and budget affairs.
European Union leaders pledged in March to speed up Turkey's long-stalled membership talks

Though as we know there is no rush, Cameron said Turkey will join in the year 3000....

It's up there with his 'world war 3' campaign promise.

Sam Russell

The Brexit vote is a piece of nonsense.

They are offering the electorate a direct choice: Stay or Leave.

However, the Stay is to continue with what is extant, with a few opt-outs which are not really significant.

On the other hand, on the Leave side, it is a fact-free zone. No negotiations have taken place therefore no-one knows anything. Next, the possible options are scant: do they look for the situation of Norway, Switzerland, or Lichtenstein?

The problem with those is

1: Population - UK = 60 million, Norway = 5 million, Switzerland = 8 million, Lichtenstein = 360,000. The UK would change the EEA fundamentally so no deal on the nod.

2: Immigration - it is fundamental that the EEA has free movement for EU citizens, so no deal if no free movement.

3: EU budget contributions - the EU would continue to demand budget contributions of a similar scale to current contributions - at least in net terms.

So no EEA. What then? Well, there is the Commonwealth. Not sure if they could get a good deal from them, but at least they would keep the head of state.

BoJack Horseman

Sam Russell wrote: »

On the other hand, on the Leave side, it is a fact-free zone

The exact same argument swung the indie referendum in scotland.

Don't change, because the future is unknown.

Of course, this logic is no more valid than do change, because the future is unknown.

There is very little certain about the future.....

The Remanians are no more sooth-sayers than the Brexiters.

Sam Russell wrote: »

The Brexit vote is a piece of nonsense.

And no amount of pompous sneering makes this true.

ancapailldorcha

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

That thing about Turkey is a lie....

It's not a visa waiver, it's full membership

Though as we know there is no rush, Cameron said Turkey will join in the year 3000....

It's up there with his 'world war 3' campaign promise.

This is just more talks. How on earth can you say it's full membership? From your own link:

Since Muslim-majority Turkey formally launched its membership bid in 2005, the EU has opened 15 chapters out of the 35 required to join the bloc.

So far only one chapter has been completed, with disagreements over Turkey's human rights record an obstacle for many EU states.

BoJack Horseman

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

This is just more talks. How on earth can you say it's full membership?

Well Horse, they aren't having talks over the state of the weather or Turkey beating the Czechs last night.

Question: What do you think is the overall objective of the talks?