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Brexit Referendum Superthread
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I read this thread with increasing dismay.
I'm an Irishman, who moved to the UK, Scotland first, and then England in 1996, solely for work.
Unfortunately, I fell for ,and married an English girl , who has repelled all efforts to move home since. I adore her however, and the kids are happy and settled.
I have bought a few acres at home, and plan to move home in a few years.
Now I an lucky, in that I make a lot of money, my wife has a good job, and at present, we want for nothing, so I would be one of the few who may benefit from some Singapore type regime, but I am thoroughly sickened by brexit, and I would hope that the European Parliament, their negotiators, and, indeed irish and EU citizens would remember that there are tens of millions of people who are bound to the UK who feel exactly the same.
I am absolutely outraged that Theresa May has apparently hijacked brexit , imposing on it with a mixture of arrogance , ruthlessness and ineptitude, entirely her own vision of what brexit should mean, and she isn't even an elected leader. It is a perfect storm of an idiot calling the referendum (Cameron),an utterly directionless and rudderless opposition, an over-strong media, and voter apathy that has inflicted this on the people of the UK who will actually do the suffering.
I hope it occurs to the EU and their negotiators, that they ought at least bear in mind those voters who want to remain.
I was hoping that may had a plan to go back to the country once the ramifications of the inevitably awful deal become apparent. Unfortunately, it would appear that she is too arrogant.
you should share that with her, you might not get a choice then.0 -
Davis has twice referred to the border in Ireland as an internal UK border and that the CTA was a right to work scheme.It's not really clear to me (not for the first time where Mr. Davis is concerned) what he is saying. There are currently no other news sources carrying this story AFAIK.
Everything he asserts seems based on the way he thinks the world is rather than how it actually is.0 -
I rented an apartment in Berlin to a young Brit couple last night. Felt sorry for them signing the contracts and holding their passports knowing that if everything goes as planned, they are unlikely to be allowed to remain here as new arrivals who have no chance of accumulating permanent residency before the deed is done.
They are working but not in jobs where there is officially a shortage of labour, so it will be very difficult for them to get a blue card. They were quite despondent about the whole thing.0 -
I rented an apartment in Berlin to a young Brit couple last night. Felt sorry for them signing the contracts and holding their passports knowing that if everything goes as planned, they are unlikely to be allowed to remain here as new arrivals who have no chance of accumulating permanent residency before the deed is done.
They are working but not in jobs where there is officially a shortage of labour, so it will be very difficult for them to get a blue card. They were quite despondent about the whole thing.
I hope that the German govt will be more generous to UK citizens living and working in Germany than the Brits are about to treat EU nationals in the UK. It doesn´t has to go the same bad example Mrs May is to perform.0 -
Anyone up for British Citizenship? Seems like David Davis wants any British Citizen to become Irish and vice versa.
Irish and British to get dual citizenship rightsIt had been anticipated that this legislation, which enshrines the free movement of people, would have to be reviewed after Brexit. “What we will aim to do is pretty much identical to the 1949 act, which gives effectively citizenship rights to the citizens of each country,” Mr Davis said.
The 1949 act does not grant British citizenship to anyone from Ireland (the RoI). It allows for people born in the then Irish Free State to retain/formally apply for British Subject status which, should the person move to the UK, can be traded for British Citizenship. That option though is almost twice as expensive as just applying directly to become a British citizen. It is also almost completely redundant since it is of no use to anyone Irish born after 1949.
Nor is there any "vice versa" arrangement under Irish law for British citizens (as either they have a direct/familial Irish connection or they don't).
Nor does or would such an arrangement trump EU law in the matter which is clear that EU citizens get preference over non-EU ones. Any attempt to operate a contrary system would mean we could end up with massive fines from the ECJ which, of course, would not bother Mr Davis in the slightest.
This is just another case of Ireland being expected to roll over and solve a problem created by the Brexiters.0 -
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I hope that the German govt will be more generous to UK citizens living and working in Germany than the Brits are about to treat EU nationals in the UK. It doesn´t has to go the same bad example Mrs May is to perform.
can people not read, or do theynot want to?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-white-paper-plans-what-are-they-main-points-bill-read-theresa-may-parliament-uk-eu-a7559066.html6. Securing rights for EU nationals in the UK, and UK nationals in the EU – We want to secure the status of EU citizens who are already living in the UK, and that of UK nationals in other member states, as early as we can.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-392282450 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »I hope that the German govt will be more generous to UK citizens living and working in Germany than the Brits are about to treat EU nationals in the UK. It doesn´t has to go the same bad example Mrs May is to perform.
can people not read, or do theynot want to?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-white-paper-plans-what-are-they-main-points-bill-read-theresa-may-parliament-uk-eu-a7559066.html6. Securing rights for EU nationals in the UK, and UK nationals in the EU – We want to secure the status of EU citizens who are already living in the UK, and that of UK nationals in other member states, as early as we can.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-39228245
I recall to have come across her phrases regarding the rights of EU nationals living in the UK, but it isn´t just a matter of reading, it is more a matter of trust in her words, and frankly, after the Commons defeated the amendment of the Brexit bill in regards of that matter, there is no reason to trust in her words anyway. That subject is - or better to say always was - a ransom she is holding for the Brexit negotiations with the EU officials.
If the Brit govt had been serious to stick to what you´ve quoted, they would have altered the bill for Brexit to follow what is set out in this white paper. It just went the other way and for the very reason I mentioned before.0 -
The 1949 act does not grant British citizenship to anyone from Ireland (the RoI). It allows for people born in the then Irish Free State to retain/formally apply for British Subject status which, should the person move to the UK, can be traded for British Citizenship. That option though is almost twice as expensive as just applying directly to become a British citizen. It is also almost completely redundant since it is of no use to anyone Irish born after 1949.
Nor is there any "vice versa" arrangement under Irish law for British citizens (as either they have a direct/familial Irish connection or they don't).
Nor does or would such an arrangement trump EU law in the matter which is clear that EU citizens get preference over non-EU ones. Any attempt to operate a contrary system would mean we could end up with massive fines from the ECJ which, of course, would not bother Mr Davis in the slightest.
This is just another case of Ireland being expected to roll over and solve a problem created by the Brexiters.
UK citizens are not subject to the Aliens Act 1935. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/rights_of_residence_in_ireland/residence_rules_UK_citizens.html0 -
I recall to have come across her phrases regarding the rights of EU nationals living in the UK, but it isn´t just a matter of reading, it is more a matter of trust in her words, and frankly, after the Commons defeated the amendment of the Brexit bill in regards of that matter, there is no reason to trust in her words anyway. That subject is - or better to say always was - a ransom she is holding for the Brexit negotiations with the EU officials.
If the Brit govt had been serious to stick to what you´ve quoted, they would have altered the bill for Brexit to follow what is set out in this white paper. It just went the other way and for the very reason I mentioned before.
stipulating that in the Bill would have taken away a bargaining chip the British government has.
Theresa May's first responsibility is to her citizens, so securing their rights abroad is something she has said several times is one of the first things she wants to do and I would imagine the eu wants to do the same thing. If the Bill was amended to state that EU citizens currently living in the UK automatically had rights, there is no reason why the eu would give British citizens the same rights, or if they did, it would be in exchange for something else.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »stipulating that in the Bill would have taken away a bargaining chip the British government has.
So in short, her words are meaningless as she will expediently discard any "trust me" promises when it suits. But then again "politics isn't a game" right? :rolleyes:0 -
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The 1949 act does not grant British citizenship to anyone from Ireland (the RoI). It allows for people born in the then Irish Free State to retain/formally apply for British Subject status which, should the person move to the UK, can be traded for British Citizenship. That option though is almost twice as expensive as just applying directly to become a British citizen. It is also almost completely redundant since it is of no use to anyone Irish born after 1949.
Nor is there any "vice versa" arrangement under Irish law for British citizens (as either they have a direct/familial Irish connection or they don't).
Nor does or would such an arrangement trump EU law in the matter which is clear that EU citizens get preference over non-EU ones. Any attempt to operate a contrary system would mean we could end up with massive fines from the ECJ which, of course, would not bother Mr Davis in the slightest.
This is just another case of Ireland being expected to roll over and solve a problem created by the Brexiters.
Okay, I think I understand but maybe David Davis doesn't. I still don't see how the EU can approve a scheme where the UK can have its citizens working in a EU country but there is no return policy for other EU countries. It will be a compromise from the EU side to allow this to happen for basically Northern Irish citizens. I can see it being done for the GFA though, but surely there will have to be some give from the UK for this to happen.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »I recall to have come across her phrases regarding the rights of EU nationals living in the UK, but it isn´t just a matter of reading, it is more a matter of trust in her words, and frankly, after the Commons defeated the amendment of the Brexit bill in regards of that matter, there is no reason to trust in her words anyway. That subject is - or better to say always was - a ransom she is holding for the Brexit negotiations with the EU officials.
If the Brit govt had been serious to stick to what you´ve quoted, they would have altered the bill for Brexit to follow what is set out in this white paper. It just went the other way and for the very reason I mentioned before.
stipulating that in the Bill would have taken away a bargaining chip the British government has.
Theresa May's first responsibility is to her citizens, so securing their rights abroad is something she has said several times is one of the first things she wants to do and I would imagine the eu wants to do the same thing. If the Bill was amended to state that EU citizens currently living in the UK automatically had rights, there is no reason why the eu would give British citizens the same rights, or if they did, it would be in exchange for something else.
Seriously, if Brexit was a good idea and in the interests of U.K. Citizens, she would not need bargaining chips.
Additionally immigration from third countries is the decision of individual countries, not Brussels. Again, acting in the interests of those citizens is not using them as bargaining chips. UK tells us it wants to be a third country. It can decide what to do about the people living within its borders but it cannot make demands of other countries.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »I recall to have come across her phrases regarding the rights of EU nationals living in the UK, but it isn´t just a matter of reading, it is more a matter of trust in her words, and frankly, after the Commons defeated the amendment of the Brexit bill in regards of that matter, there is no reason to trust in her words anyway. That subject is - or better to say always was - a ransom she is holding for the Brexit negotiations with the EU officials.
If the Brit govt had been serious to stick to what you´ve quoted, they would have altered the bill for Brexit to follow what is set out in this white paper. It just went the other way and for the very reason I mentioned before.
stipulating that in the Bill would have taken away a bargaining chip the British government has.
Theresa May's first responsibility is to her citizens, so securing their rights abroad is something she has said several times is one of the first things she wants to do and I would imagine the eu wants to do the same thing. If the Bill was amended to state that EU citizens currently living in the UK automatically had rights, there is no reason why the eu would give British citizens the same rights, or if they did, it would be in exchange for something else.
Well, that woman says a lot during a week but either does less or nothing or as Brit expats perceived it, she´s doing quite nothing. Here are the opinions from a couple of Brit expats and what they say about her and her lack of care for them:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/03/government-accused-ignoring-britons-expat-rights-europe-brexit
Mrs May is just gambling, nothing else, just like Cameron was gambling (and lost in the end). This time, there is even more at stake than just a referendum to win, it is about people´s lives, which might have to face hard consequences for which they certainly will curse May like many cursed Thatcher. She´s got it wrong from the very start and I see her only making things worse, cos she is the wrong person at a curcial time in the most important office of the UK. That woman is a hardline anti-immigration politician, she always was that way when she was Home Secretary. All the problems EU nationals in the UK have with that 85 page formula to fill in and send to the Home Office was the brain child of herself. UK citizens in EU countries don´t have those ordeal to work through to get their residence permission.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »stipulating that in the Bill would have taken away a bargaining chip the British government has.
Theresa May's first responsibility is to her citizens, so securing their rights abroad is something she has said several times is one of the first things she wants to do and I would imagine the eu wants to do the same thing. If the Bill was amended to state that EU citizens currently living in the UK automatically had rights, there is no reason why the eu would give British citizens the same rights, or if they did, it would be in exchange for something else.
I think the negotiations will depend a lot on how the UK approaches it with the EU. If the UK goes in and is confrontational with the EU regarding the rights of EU citizens in the UK and see them only as a bargaining chip then I think the whole negotiations are not going to go well for either side. Seeing as they have Brexit supporting ministers in the positions that will negotiate I think we will see some tough negotiations ahead.
I think the UK could have really started the negotiations off on a good foot by showing they will not play games with peoples lives, instead they are seen as bargaining chips instead.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »stipulating that in the Bill would have taken away a bargaining chip the British government has.
Theresa May's first responsibility is to her citizens, so securing their rights abroad is something she has said several times is one of the first things she wants to do and I would imagine the eu wants to do the same thing. If the Bill was amended to state that EU citizens currently living in the UK automatically had rights, there is no reason why the eu would give British citizens the same rights, or if they did, it would be in exchange for something else.
I think the negotiations will depend a lot on how the UK approaches it with the EU. If the UK goes in and is confrontational with the EU regarding the rights of EU citizens in the UK and see them only as a bargaining chip then I think the whole negotiations are not going to go well for either side. Seeing as they have Brexit supporting ministers in the positions that will negotiate I think we will see some tough negotiations ahead.
I think the UK could have really started the negotiations off on a good foot by showing they will not play games with peoples lives, instead they are seen as bargaining chips instead.
That´s how it is and therefore Mrs May will have hard time ahead with her negotiations due to her own stubbornness.0 -
I don't see why Ireland should confer Irish citizenship on Britain. That would be effectively us rejoining the Uk. Screw that.I still don't see how the EU can approve a scheme where the UK can have its citizens working in a EU country but there is no return policy for other EU countries.0 -
May announces that she'll block the Scottish referendum until after Brexit - seems a strange decision, given that any momentum appeared to be with the No campaign, whereas this will surely add 5% to the pro-indy camp.0
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An Ciarraioch wrote: »May announces that she'll block the Scottish referendum until after Brexit - seems a strange decision, given that any momentum appeared to be with the No campaign, whereas this will surely add 5% to the pro-indy camp.
The independence campaign, will not go away, and she has just added another head ache for herself.
The funny thing is that, all of this can easily be stopped with a soft Brexit, which will placate the SNP, and take the wind of the sails of Sinn Fein in the North. Instead she is taking a massive risk, and will probably lose the Union. I am not sure if it a case of stunning incompetence, or sheer ego and over confidence.0 -
Minimum. Sturgeon will now milk this for all it's worth - a display of the UK's desire to dominate Scottish politics by dictating what they are and are not allowed to do. Which ironically mirrors exactly why England and Wales voted to leave the EU - a lack of apparent autonomy and sovereignty.An Ciarraioch wrote: »May announces that she'll block the Scottish referendum until after Brexit - seems a strange decision, given that any momentum appeared to be with the No campaign, whereas this will surely add 5% to the pro-indy camp.
May has effectively told Scotland, "No, you may not make decisions for yourselves, that's for us down in London to do". That's likely to polarise people who would have been on the fence. Nothing brings out the rebel in people like being told that you're not allowed to do something.
I wonder will Sturgeon's government go ahead and hold a referendum anyway without the assent of the UK government?
Or is it bizarre options number 3 - she's pushing this with all the vigour she can to demonstrate to the Brexiteers exactly what happens when you play with fire?I am not sure if it a case of stunning incompetence, or sheer ego and over confidence.0 -
I wonder will Sturgeon's government go ahead and hold a referendum anyway without the assent of the UK government?
She should announce a date right now, and keep the pressure on May. If May is unwilling to not compromise, she should keep it up.
I have to say, I am stunned by how stubborn May is being. Surely, she must see that she is leading her nation into disaster.0 -
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It's beautiful for the SNP, they can build their case for independence around all the promises Brexit fails to deliver.An Ciarraioch wrote: »May announces that she'll block the Scottish referendum until after Brexit - seems a strange decision, given that any momentum appeared to be with the No campaign, whereas this will surely add 5% to the pro-indy camp.0 -
In my view, it is all the three in her case and most of it, her big ego dictating her to Play the reincarnation of Thatcher.An Ciarraioch wrote: »May announces that she'll block the Scottish referendum until after Brexit - seems a strange decision, given that any momentum appeared to be with the No campaign, whereas this will surely add 5% to the pro-indy camp.
The independence campaign, will not go away, and she has just added another head ache for herself.
The funny thing is that, all of this can easily be stopped with a soft Brexit, which will placate the SNP, and take the wind of the sails of Sinn Fein in the North. Instead she is taking a massive risk, and will probably lose the Union. I am not sure if it a case of stunning incompetence, or sheer ego and over confidence.0 -
I wonder will Sturgeon's government go ahead and hold a referendum anyway without the assent of the UK government?
She should announce a date right now, and keep the pressure on May. If May is unwilling to not compromise, she should keep it up.
I have to say, I am stunned by how stubborn May is being. Surely, she must see that she is leading her nation into disaster.
I am not, I always Held her in a very low esteem and there is nothing that surprises me in her strong negativity. With some luck, she´ll make it to go down as the very PM who nailed the last nails into the coffin of the UK. Cameron was the grave digger with his Brexit Referendum and May will do the final job. If one thinks that the Tories can´t do worse, one hasn´t seen the end of it yet. There´s more to come from this govt, but one day in the future, they will be held accountable for all of it.0 -
He’ll have 13% of the seats. That’s worth shag-all if nobody else is prepared to work with you.stefanovich wrote: »Mere.... He is due to have the second largest number of seats.0 -
It really doesn’t bode well for the Brexiteers if their government are going to do a massive U-turn every time they encounter a little bit of resistance.Professor Moriarty wrote: »This headline about the budget debacle from the Torygraph made me smile:
The Government's U-turn shows it has the flexibility and dynamism to succeed0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »can people not read, or do theynot want to?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-white-paper-plans-what-are-they-main-points-bill-read-theresa-may-parliament-uk-eu-a7559066.html
You really that’s a massive contradiction, don’t you? If May and her cabinet really were prioritising the rights of EU citizens in the UK, then she wouldn’t be using us as bargaining chips, would she? I personally find the refusal to guarantee our rights very worrying, because I don’t see these negotiations going well at all. I can see the British press getting very nasty indeed when things don’t go as smoothly as May & Co. have promised and EU immigrants will be public enemy number one (if we’re not already).Fratton Fred wrote: »stipulating that in the Bill would have taken away a bargaining chip the British government has.
How many of her citizens voted for the harsh form of Brexit that she seems intent on imposing on them? Nobody’s talking about leaving the single market – remember that?Fratton Fred wrote: »Theresa May's first responsibility is to her citizens…
That’s absolutely ridiculous. What would have happened in reality is EU negotiators would have immediately followed the UK’s lead and guaranteed the rights of UK citizens in the EU (because it is in everyone’s interests to do so), the issue would be put to bed and I could stop worrying about having to apply for work permits at some point in the future.Fratton Fred wrote: »…so securing their rights abroad is something she has said several times is one of the first things she wants to do and I would imagine the eu wants to do the same thing. If the Bill was amended to state that EU citizens currently living in the UK automatically had rights, there is no reason why the eu would give British citizens the same rights, or if they did, it would be in exchange for something else.0 -
They’re already being confrontational. Christ, they’re even being confrontational with the British parliamentary system, never mind the EU. The refusal to guarantee the rights of EU citizens, all this talk of no deal being better than a bad deal and the appointment of Boris as foreign secretary (who has made a career out of insulting other nations and their politicians) is really not setting a very positive tone for the commencement of negotiations.I think the negotiations will depend a lot on how the UK approaches it with the EU. If the UK goes in and is confrontational with the EU regarding the rights of EU citizens in the UK and see them only as a bargaining chip then I think the whole negotiations are not going to go well for either side.
I’m increasingly of the opinion that this is all going to go very, very badly and the Tories are going to throw all their toys out the pram when they realise they’re not going to get half of what they’re promised the electorate.0 -
Actually, support for independence in Scotland seems to be at an all-time high:An Ciarraioch wrote: »May announces that she'll block the Scottish referendum until after Brexit - seems a strange decision, given that any momentum appeared to be with the No campaign, whereas this will surely add 5% to the pro-indy camp.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39265997
Oddly though, anti-EU sentiment is also on the rise.
Scotland is weird.0 -
So in short, her words are meaningless as she will expediently discard any "trust me" promises when it suits. But then again "politics isn't a game" right? :rolleyes:
could you point me to a promise she has not stuck to? Article 50 hasn't even been triggered and she is being accused of going back on her promises already :rolleyes:Well, that woman says a lot during a week but either does less or nothing or as Brit expats perceived it, she´s doing quite nothing. Here are the opinions from a couple of Brit expats and what they say about her and her lack of care for them:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/03/government-accused-ignoring-britons-expat-rights-europe-brexit
I know, I'm an expat and I haven't had a call from her yet either, I'll have another quick ring around the other 1,200,000 British citizens living in Europe and see if they've heard from her yet as well.Mrs May is just gambling, nothing else, just like Cameron was gambling (and lost in the end). This time, there is even more at stake than just a referendum to win, it is about people´s lives, which might have to face hard consequences for which they certainly will curse May like many cursed Thatcher.
Of course she's gambling, the whole thing is a gamble. No one has done it before.
There's no playbook for this, it is a case of making the best from a ****ty situation.She´s got it wrong from the very start and I see her only making things worse, cos she is the wrong person at a curcial time in the most important office of the UK. That woman is a hardline anti-immigration politician, she always was that way when she was Home Secretary. All the problems EU nationals in the UK have with that 85 page formula to fill in and send to the Home Office was the brain child of herself. UK citizens in EU countries don´t have those ordeal to work through to get their residence permission.
they don't "Have" to ill in any form https://fullfact.org/immigration/how-difficult-it-eu-nationals-apply-residence-rights-uk/I think the UK could have really started the negotiations off on a good foot by showing they will not play games with peoples lives, instead they are seen as bargaining chips instead.
Oh please. If Verhofstadt had done this, it would have been considered a good logical approach.In my view, it is all the three in her case and most of it, her big ego dictating her to Play the reincarnation of Thatcher.
nice one. She's a Tory and she has tits, therefore she must be the reincarnation of Margaret Thatcher.0 -
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You really that’s a massive contradiction, don’t you? If May and her cabinet really were prioritising the rights of EU citizens in the UK, then she wouldn’t be using us as bargaining chips, would she? I personally find the refusal to guarantee our rights very worrying, because I don’t see these negotiations going well at all. I can see the British press getting very nasty indeed when things don’t go as smoothly as May & Co. have promised and EU immigrants will be public enemy number one (if we’re not already).
How many of her citizens voted for the harsh form of Brexit that she seems intent on imposing on them? Nobody’s talking about leaving the single market – remember that?
That’s absolutely ridiculous. What would have happened in reality is EU negotiators would have immediately followed the UK’s lead and guaranteed the rights of UK citizens in the EU (because it is in everyone’s interests to do so), the issue would be put to bed and I could stop worrying about having to apply for work permits at some point in the future.
We in the same boat, are we not?
Has the eu made any such guarantees? can the eu make any such guarantees?
Are the eu council and eu parliament debating the fate of British citizens in the eu?0
This discussion has been closed.
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