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Brexit Referendum Superthread
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Fratton Fred wrote: »You really that’s a massive contradiction, don’t you? If May and her cabinet really were prioritising the rights of EU citizens in the UK, then she wouldn’t be using us as bargaining chips, would she? I personally find the refusal to guarantee our rights very worrying, because I don’t see these negotiations going well at all. I can see the British press getting very nasty indeed when things don’t go as smoothly as May & Co. have promised and EU immigrants will be public enemy number one (if we’re not already).
How many of her citizens voted for the harsh form of Brexit that she seems intent on imposing on them? Nobody’s talking about leaving the single market – remember that?
That’s absolutely ridiculous. What would have happened in reality is EU negotiators would have immediately followed the UK’s lead and guaranteed the rights of UK citizens in the EU (because it is in everyone’s interests to do so), the issue would be put to bed and I could stop worrying about having to apply for work permits at some point in the future.
We in the same boat, are we not?
Has the eu made any such guarantees? can the eu make any such guarantees?
Are the eu council and eu parliament debating the fate of British citizens in the eu?
The Brits are about the leave the EU, not the EU the Brits. Mutual assurances wouldn´t have been a Problem if the Brits had started to guarantee the EU nationals in the UK their rights and giving them residence permissions, but the hostile attitude towards EU immigrants on which the whole Brexit campaign was led gave such reasonable actions almost no quater. With an staunch anti-Immigration PM like May, there was no real consideration on her side to even propose such mutual arrangements.0 -
I think that you´re way much ill-informed and if you had read more articles of the like as the one I have posted the link to, you´d know better. Your "tits-remark" is a non-starter because many people still know that the old Thatcher is still held in high esteem among the die-hard Tories and Mrs May is just one of them.Fratton Fred wrote: »So in short, her words are meaningless as she will expediently discard any "trust me" promises when it suits. But then again "politics isn't a game" right? :rolleyes:
could you point me to a promise she has not stuck to? Article 50 hasn't even been triggered and she is being accused of going back on her promises already :rolleyes:Well, that woman says a lot during a week but either does less or nothing or as Brit expats perceived it, she´s doing quite nothing. Here are the opinions from a couple of Brit expats and what they say about her and her lack of care for them:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/03/government-accused-ignoring-britons-expat-rights-europe-brexit
I know, I'm an expat and I haven't had a call from her yet either, I'll have another quick ring around the other 1,200,000 British citizens living in Europe and see if they've heard from her yet as well.Mrs May is just gambling, nothing else, just like Cameron was gambling (and lost in the end). This time, there is even more at stake than just a referendum to win, it is about people´s lives, which might have to face hard consequences for which they certainly will curse May like many cursed Thatcher.
Of course she's gambling, the whole thing is a gamble. No one has done it before.
There's no playbook for this, it is a case of making the best from a ****ty situation.She´s got it wrong from the very start and I see her only making things worse, cos she is the wrong person at a curcial time in the most important office of the UK. That woman is a hardline anti-immigration politician, she always was that way when she was Home Secretary. All the problems EU nationals in the UK have with that 85 page formula to fill in and send to the Home Office was the brain child of herself. UK citizens in EU countries don´t have those ordeal to work through to get their residence permission.
they don't "Have" to ill in any form https://fullfact.org/immigration/how-difficult-it-eu-nationals-apply-residence-rights-uk/I think the UK could have really started the negotiations off on a good foot by showing they will not play games with peoples lives, instead they are seen as bargaining chips instead.
Oh please. If Verhofstadt had done this, it would have been considered a good logical approach.In my view, it is all the three in her case and most of it, her big ego dictating her to Play the reincarnation of Thatcher.
nice one. She's a Tory and she has tits, therefore she must be the reincarnation of Margaret Thatcher.0 -
I think that you´re way much ill-informed and if you had read more articles of the like as the one I have posted the link to, you´d know better. Your "tits-remark" is a non-starter because many people still know that the old Thatcher is still held in high esteem among the die-hard Tories and Mrs May is just one of them.
it is a stupid, almost sexist, but certainly lazy comparison.
Theresa May and Margaret Thatcher are nothing alike.0 -
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Fratton Fred wrote: »they don't "Have" to ill in any form https://fullfact.org/immigration/how-difficult-it-eu-nationals-apply-residence-rights-uk/
That page doesn't really clear anything up about what is or isn't required for an EU citizen to guarantee their right to remain in the UK. Just says that at the moment it's not needed, but you can apply for permanent resident permit and after that citizenship/ passport if you want to.
It doesn't say if any of that will be required, and is vague on if a permanent residence permit will be honoured in two years time.0 -
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Yes they are and May is turning out to be even worse than Thatcher, in spite your refusal to see that clearly. But wait and see how she conducts her negotiations with the EU once she has submitted the application for the UK to leave the EU according to Article 50.Fratton Fred wrote: »I think that you´re way much ill-informed and if you had read more articles of the like as the one I have posted the link to, you´d know better. Your "tits-remark" is a non-starter because many people still know that the old Thatcher is still held in high esteem among the die-hard Tories and Mrs May is just one of them.
it is a stupid, almost sexist, but certainly lazy comparison.
Theresa May and Margaret Thatcher are nothing alike.
The Sexist is in the eyes of the beholder and that is clearly yourself and not me. But maybe it is you who can´t look through a person and focus on the character rather than the shape of the body. I was always addressing the similarities in the character, not their gender. Maybe one day you´ll get through this too.0 -
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Fratton Fred wrote: »UK citizens are not subject to the Aliens Act 1935. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/rights_of_residence_in_ireland/residence_rules_UK_citizens.html
I never suggested they were subject to it.
Obviously should the U.K. leave the EU then that act would need to be repealed/revised.
Post exit, any of our fellow EU citizens who found themselves being treated worse than a non-EU UK citizen would have a clear cut case that Ireland had discriminated against them contrary to EU law.
There is no way that we could defend treating non-EU citizens better than we treat EU ones.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »Oh please. If Verhofstadt had done this, it would have been considered a good logical approach.
If my aunt had balls she would be my uncle, whats your point seeing he didn't say it?0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »You really that’s a massive contradiction, don’t you? If May and her cabinet really were prioritising the rights of EU citizens in the UK, then she wouldn’t be using us as bargaining chips, would she? I personally find the refusal to guarantee our rights very worrying, because I don’t see these negotiations going well at all. I can see the British press getting very nasty indeed when things don’t go as smoothly as May & Co. have promised and EU immigrants will be public enemy number one (if we’re not already).
How many of her citizens voted for the harsh form of Brexit that she seems intent on imposing on them? Nobody’s talking about leaving the single market – remember that?
That’s absolutely ridiculous. What would have happened in reality is EU negotiators would have immediately followed the UK’s lead and guaranteed the rights of UK citizens in the EU (because it is in everyone’s interests to do so), the issue would be put to bed and I could stop worrying about having to apply for work permits at some point in the future.
We in the same boat, are we not?
Has the eu made any such guarantees? can the eu make any such guarantees?
Are the eu council and eu parliament debating the fate of British citizens in the eu?
It is not up to the EU to do so. The EU countries already have laws & regulations that cover non-EU citizens.
Being outside the EU means being treated as any other non-EU "foreigner" (or "third party national" to use the EU legal phrase). If you chose that status, you can't expect to be treated as an EU citizen when you are not.0 -
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It is not up to the EU to do so. The EU countries already have laws & regulations that cover non-EU citizens.
Being outside the EU means being treated as any other non-EU "foreigner" (or "third party national" to use the EU legal phrase). If you chose that status, you can't expect to be treated as an EU citizen when you are not.
so you would remove all the rights that British citizens have in europe and leave them open to whatever the country they are in decides is appropriate?0 -
That page doesn't really clear anything up about what is or isn't required for an EU citizen to guarantee their right to remain in the UK. Just says that at the moment it's not needed, but you can apply for permanent resident permit and after that citizenship/ passport if you want to.
It doesn't say if any of that will be required, and is vague on if a permanent residence permit will be honoured in two years time.
We don't yet know what will happen after Brexit. But thomas claimed eu nationals have to fill in a form, which they don't. They can if they want, but they don't have to.
how is she? please point out how.Yes they are and May is turning out to be even worse than Thatcher, in spite your refusal to see that clearly. But wait and see how she conducts her negotiations with the EU once she has submitted the application for the UK to leave the EU according to Article 50.The Sexist is in the eyes of the beholder and that is clearly yourself and not me. But maybe it is you who can´t look through a person and focus on the character rather than the shape of the body. I was always addressing the similarities in the character, not their gender. Maybe one day you´ll get through this too.
Please highlight where Thatcher and May have similar characters, as opposed to Major, Blair, Brown and CameronEver considered logic by any chance?
logic? you mean you were guessingI never suggested they were subject to it.
Obviously should the U.K. leave the EU then that act would need to be repealed/revised.
Why?Post exit, any of our fellow EU citizens who found themselves being treated worse than a non-EU UK citizen would have a clear cut case that Ireland had discriminated against them contrary to EU law.
There is no way that we could defend treating non-EU citizens better than we treat EU ones.
eu rules say that eu citizens must be treated the same as the citizens of the country they are in. If British citizens in Ireland were getting better that that, then it wouldn't be just the eu complaining i would guess.
What the eu does not do, is tell eu countries how it can treat citizens of non eu countries. Remember all the talk about the UK could control immigration from outside the eu if it wanted?If my aunt had balls she would be my uncle, whats your point seeing he didn't say it?
I was just pointing out the double standards that seem to be prevelant on here.0 -
In the event that no agreement can be made between the UK and the EU, yes.Fratton Fred wrote: »so you would remove all the rights that British citizens have in europe and leave them open to whatever the country they are in decides is appropriate?
Failure to account for the rights of EU citizens in the UK, in the Brexit bill, is a clear indication of the UK government's intent to adopt an adversarial approach to the negotiations. They're putting everything on the table - including the rights of UK citizens in the EU.
The EU has made no statement about it - it's May and her government who have decided the status of UK citizens in the EU is negotiable.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »You really that’s a massive contradiction, don’t you? If May and her cabinet really were prioritising the rights of EU citizens in the UK, then she wouldn’t be using us as bargaining chips, would she? I personally find the refusal to guarantee our rights very worrying, because I don’t see these negotiations going well at all. I can see the British press getting very nasty indeed when things don’t go as smoothly as May & Co. have promised and EU immigrants will be public enemy number one (if we’re not already).
How many of her citizens voted for the harsh form of Brexit that she seems intent on imposing on them? Nobody’s talking about leaving the single market – remember that?
That’s absolutely ridiculous. What would have happened in reality is EU negotiators would have immediately followed the UK’s lead and guaranteed the rights of UK citizens in the EU (because it is in everyone’s interests to do so), the issue would be put to bed and I could stop worrying about having to apply for work permits at some point in the future.
We in the same boat, are we not?
Has the eu made any such guarantees? can the eu make any such guarantees?
Are the eu council and eu parliament debating the fate of British citizens in the eu?
It is not up to the EU to do so. The EU countries already have laws & regulations that cover non-EU citizens.
Being outside the EU means being treated as any other non-EU "foreigner" (or "third party national" to use the EU legal phrase). If you chose that status, you can't expect to be treated as an EU citizen when you are not.
The thing is, that none of the Brit expats "choose" to become a non-EU citizen and for Long residing UK nationals there should be some easy way to get residence permissions in each EU member state they live in. The EU can arrange that unilaterally in her own interests and above all, the interests of the residing UK nationals which are in some cases married to EU nationals. One doesn´t has to follow the bad example Mrs May is to pursue. For new arrivals after Brexit, the law must of course be the same like for any other non-EU citizen. Otherwise it would be a case like another poster on this thread already pointed out (re discrimination of EU nationals).0 -
Sorry but you appear to be not sharp on the up take, aren´t you? You seem to deliberately mistake many posts on this subject and not just mine. It isn´t all that hard to understand and I suspect you to play some silly game on here.Fratton Fred wrote: »That page doesn't really clear anything up about what is or isn't required for an EU citizen to guarantee their right to remain in the UK. Just says that at the moment it's not needed, but you can apply for permanent resident permit and after that citizenship/ passport if you want to.
It doesn't say if any of that will be required, and is vague on if a permanent residence permit will be honoured in two years time.
We don't yet know what will happen after Brexit. But thomas claimed eu nationals have to fill in a form, which they don't. They can if they want, but they don't have to.
how is she? please point out how.Yes they are and May is turning out to be even worse than Thatcher, in spite your refusal to see that clearly. But wait and see how she conducts her negotiations with the EU once she has submitted the application for the UK to leave the EU according to Article 50.The Sexist is in the eyes of the beholder and that is clearly yourself and not me. But maybe it is you who can´t look through a person and focus on the character rather than the shape of the body. I was always addressing the similarities in the character, not their gender. Maybe one day you´ll get through this too.
Please highlight where Thatcher and May have similar characters, as opposed to Major, Blair, Brown and CameronEver considered logic by any chance?
logic? you mean you were guessingI never suggested they were subject to it.
Obviously should the U.K. leave the EU then that act would need to be repealed/revised.
Why?Post exit, any of our fellow EU citizens who found themselves being treated worse than a non-EU UK citizen would have a clear cut case that Ireland had discriminated against them contrary to EU law.
There is no way that we could defend treating non-EU citizens better than we treat EU ones.
eu rules say that eu citizens must be treated the same as the citizens of the country they are in. If British citizens in Ireland were getting better that that, then it wouldn't be just the eu complaining i would guess.
What the eu does not do, is tell eu countries how it can treat citizens of non eu countries. Remember all the talk about the UK could control immigration from outside the eu if it wanted?If my aunt had balls she would be my uncle, whats your point seeing he didn't say it?
I was just pointing out the double standards that seem to be prevelant on here.
I wasn´t "guessing" I was rather taking some logic and good will into account on the EU side which I have reason for to assume because the tone on the EU side has been more concilable recently than the threats thrown out towards the EU by Mrs May.
I am really wondering about whether it really has any merit to discuss this matter with you even further, when you´re that strongheaded to refuse to simply look at the subject at hand instead to go on cherry picking in the post of others.0 -
One doesn´t has to follow the bad example Mrs May is to pursue. For new arrivals after Brexit, the law must of course be the same like for any other non-EU citizen. Otherwise it would be a case like another poster on this thread already pointed out (re discrimination of EU nationals).
again, you're just guessing. Article 50 hasn't even been triggered yet and people are already talking about what path is being followed. there must be a lot of crystal balls around here. You obviously have a deep mistrust of the Tory party and this is completely clouding your views.
Ireland can treat non eu citizens any way it likes. it isn't up to the eu to tell them what it can and can't do. If Ireland wants to give British citizens the same rights as eu citizens, or even their own citizens, then that is entirely up to them.0 -
Sorry but you appear to be not sharp on the up take, aren´t you? You seem to deliberately mistake many posts on this subject and not just mine. It isn´t all that hard to understand and I suspect you to play some silly game on here.
I wasn´t "guessing" I was rather taking some logic and good will into account on the EU side which I have reason for to assume because the tone on the EU side has been more concilable recently than the threats thrown out towards the EU by Mrs May.
I am really wondering about whether it really has any merit to discuss this matter with you even further, when you´re that strongheaded to refuse to simply look at the subject at hand instead to go on cherry picking in the post of others.
If you don't want to discuss, because your points are being questioned, then fair enough, but that is what discussion forums are for. Unless you think everyone should just agree with you.
You don't seem to be able to back up any of your statements with anything of substance. Please do.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »One doesn´t has to follow the bad example Mrs May is to pursue. For new arrivals after Brexit, the law must of course be the same like for any other non-EU citizen. Otherwise it would be a case like another poster on this thread already pointed out (re discrimination of EU nationals).
again, you're just guessing. Article 50 hasn't even been triggered yet and people are already talking about what path is being followed. there must be a lot of crystal balls around here. You obviously have a deep mistrust of the Tory party and this is completely clouding your views.
Ireland can treat non eu citizens any way it likes. it isn't up to the eu to tell them what it can and can't do. If Ireland wants to give British citizens the same rights as eu citizens, or even their own citizens, then that is entirely up to them.
Oh yes, of course, until the person reaches the Schengen Zone with that special residence permisson and is refused entry because the permission is not valid to cross into other EU member states. Doesn´t makes travel easier, but there you go, the cristal ball is in your Corner now and I am retiring for today.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »Sorry but you appear to be not sharp on the up take, aren´t you? You seem to deliberately mistake many posts on this subject and not just mine. It isn´t all that hard to understand and I suspect you to play some silly game on here.
I wasn´t "guessing" I was rather taking some logic and good will into account on the EU side which I have reason for to assume because the tone on the EU side has been more concilable recently than the threats thrown out towards the EU by Mrs May.
I am really wondering about whether it really has any merit to discuss this matter with you even further, when you´re that strongheaded to refuse to simply look at the subject at hand instead to go on cherry picking in the post of others.
If you don't want to discuss, because your points are being questioned, then fair enough, but that is what discussion forums are for. Unless you think everyone should just agree with you.
You don't seem to be able to back up any of your statements with anything of substance. Please do.
I have had many debates with people of your standing and they are all the same, at some point they start to get boring because all they want is to run in circles and dig for something that isn´t neither here nor there, but have no clue about how things can develop.
You really have a habit to get personal in the first place and I am not interested in going on such a level. I leave you to it and if you like to praise Mrs May, so be it, but I will have no part in that. Thanks but no thanks.0 -
In the event that no agreement can be made between the UK and the EU, yes.Fratton Fred wrote: »so you would remove all the rights that British citizens have in europe and leave them open to whatever the country they are in decides is appropriate?
Failure to account for the rights of EU citizens in the UK, in the Brexit bill, is a clear indication of the UK government's intent to adopt an adversarial approach to the negotiations. They're putting everything on the table - including the rights of UK citizens in the EU.
The EU has made no statement about it - it's May and her government who have decided the status of UK citizens in the EU is negotiable.
Quite so and if Mrs May had made a reverse Statement and reached out to give the EU nationals living in the UK a guarantee of residence permission, I am convinced that the EU had responded on that much positively.0 -
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Fratton Fred wrote: »It is not up to the EU to do so. The EU countries already have laws & regulations that cover non-EU citizens.
Being outside the EU means being treated as any other non-EU "foreigner" (or "third party national" to use the EU legal phrase). If you chose that status, you can't expect to be treated as an EU citizen when you are not.
so you would remove all the rights that British citizens have in europe and leave them open to whatever the country they are in decides is appropriate?
I wouldn't remove any rights from British citizens in Europe given a personal choice.
Instead, it is the British government that will remove them approx 2 years after triggering article 50.0 -
The thing is, that none of the Brit expats "choose" to become a non-EU citizen and for Long residing UK nationals there should be some easy way to get residence permissions in each EU member state they live in. The EU can arrange that unilaterally in her own interests and above all, the interests of the residing UK nationals which are in some cases married to EU nationals. One doesn´t has to follow the bad example Mrs May is to pursue. For new arrivals after Brexit, the law must of course be the same like for any other non-EU citizen. Otherwise it would be a case like another poster on this thread already pointed out (re discrimination of EU nationals).
The Visegard group has already said it will veto any deal that does not protect their citizens rights in the UK (although there has been some back tracking on this statement) so citizens are a bargaining chip already.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »
It would be incompatible with our commitments under the EU Treaties particularly wrt third country nationals.Fratton Fred wrote: »Post exit, any of our fellow EU citizens who found themselves being treated worse than a non-EU UK citizen would have a clear cut case that Ireland had discriminated against them contrary to EU law.
There is no way that we could defend treating non-EU citizens better than we treat EU ones.
eu rules say that eu citizens must be treated the same as the citizens of the country they are in. If British citizens in Ireland were getting better that that, then it wouldn't be just the eu complaining i would guess.
What the eu does not do, is tell eu countries how it can treat citizens of non eu countries. Remember all the talk about the UK could control immigration from outside the eu if it wanted?
The principle of "community preference" is not a new one.
EU/EEA citizens must be given preference over non-EU ones. Hence it is legally indefensible to treat non-EU/EEA ones better than EU ones. UK citizens will have to join the same queue as Brazilians. Egyptians etc and cannot expect to get any preferential testament.
Need I point out that claiming "the eu does not do, is tell eu countries how it can treat citizens of non eu countries" while expecting a non-EU UK-EU deal to do precisely that is contradictory?0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »The Visegard group has already said it will veto any deal that does not protect their citizens rights in the UK (although there has been some back tracking on this statement) so citizens are a bargaining chip already.
I believe that was a response to the UK position but am open to correction on the timing of the respective statements.0 -
I have had many debates with people of your standing and they are all the same, at some point they start to get boring because all they want is to run in circles and dig for something that isn´t neither here nor there, but have no clue about how things can develop.
You really have a habit to get personal in the first place and I am not interested in going on such a level. I leave you to it and if you like to praise Mrs May, so be it, but I will have no part in that. Thanks but no thanks.
My standing?
what is that supposed to mean?
so you don't like having your points countered, so you are taking your ball home?
fine.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »
Ireland can treat non eu citizens any way it likes. it isn't up to the eu to tell them what it can and can't do.
If we were talking about Burundi or somewhere, Ireland could make its own immigration policy and it would be just our business. But we are in uncharted waters as regards how a country departing the EU will be treated. The EU and the UK will be unraveling a range of immigration related issues - travel, working rights, residence, access to services etc - all of these are up for discussion and negotiation as part of the overall divorce settlement.
All the signals are that the EU intends to adopt a single position in negotiations, plus you have the threats from the Visegrad countries to block any Brexit deal that limits their citizens' rights to work in the UK.
Clearly the long standing Ireland/UK FTA and the land border are complications but I expect these will be addressed as a specific issue and not be allowed to be used as negotiating ploy for the wider UK - EU agreement on travel.0 -
The EU has repeatedly said it will say nothing until Article 50 is triggered. It’s the British government that has made this an issue, not the EU.Fratton Fred wrote: »Has the eu made any such guarantees? can the eu make any such guarantees?
I would be amazed if has not been discussed behind closed doors.Fratton Fred wrote: »Are the eu council and eu parliament debating the fate of British citizens in the eu?0 -
The Ireland Act (1949), which thus predates the EU, guarantees the rights of Irish citizens in the UK, and those of UK citizens in Ireland, so hard to imagine that either would want to revoke its terms. That said, unless and until the British government makes their position clear, it's hard to see why any EU country would make the first reciprocal move.0
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That is unfortunately what has to happen if the UK is no longer a signatory to any EU treaties. It's the way it is for all third country nationals.Fratton Fred wrote: »so you would remove all the rights that British citizens have in europe and leave them open to whatever the country they are in decides is appropriate?0 -
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That is unfortunately what has to happen if the UK is no longer a signatory to any EU treaties. It's the way it is for all third country nationals.
I don't think so. The EU is negotiating as an entity and terms will be agreed as an entity. I don't expect we will see bi-lateral deals being agreed across the EU and for sure the migration issue will be part of an overall agreement that covers trade and much more.0
This discussion has been closed.
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