Brexit Referendum Superthread

djpbarry

yosser hughes wrote: »

I am sorry, you've lost me there. Are you accusing me of hypocrisy?

Indeed I am.

You dismissed The Guardian as unobjective, accusing a poster of only reading that which confirms their own bias.

But, in dismissing the Guardian as a source, then surely you are guilty of the same?

ancapailldorcha

Posts deleted. Less of the digs please.

yosser hughes

djpbarry wrote: »

Indeed I am.

You dismissed The Guardian as unobjective, accusing a poster of only reading that which confirms their own bias.

But, in dismissing the Guardian as a source, then surely you are guilty of the same?

Yes I did dismiss the Guardian as being unobjective because it is. If I confined myself to reading an unobjective news source with an opposing view, then I would have been hypocritical. But I don't confine myself to one news source or publication. I read opinions from both sides and I also respect the democratic vote rather than look down on and sneer at those who voted Brexit.

First Up

yosser hughes wrote:

I also respect the democratic vote rather than look down on and sneer at those who voted Brexit.

It is possible to do both.

yosser hughes

First Up wrote: »

It is possible to do both.

Sneering and looking down on people who chose an option you do not like, is not respect.

Thomas__

yosser hughes wrote: »

First Up wrote: »

It is possible to do both.

Sneering and looking down on people who chose an option you do not like, is not respect.

You might tell that the Brexiteers who - by every occasion - like to do excatly that towards the remainers. Calling them "sour losers" is just the mildest form of their way to "deal" with them. Respect works both ways or it doesn´t works at all. But you´re right, I have no respect for Brexiteers, none of it and they will have their harsh awakening, sooner or later, that´s for sure.

First Up

yosser hughes wrote:

Sneering and looking down on people who chose an option you do not like, is not respect.

I didn't say I respected them.

Thomas__

First Up wrote: »

yosser hughes wrote:

Sneering and looking down on people who chose an option you do not like, is not respect.

I didn't say I respected them.

I don´t have any respect for chauvinists, nationalistic extremists and people who dream of a revival of a long gone imperialistic era. I simply avoid them.

djpbarry

yosser hughes wrote: »

Yes I did dismiss the Guardian as being unobjective because it is.

In your subjective opinion.

yosser hughes wrote: »

If I confined myself to reading an unobjective news source with an opposing view, then I would have been hypocritical. But I don't confine myself to one news source or publication. I read opinions from both sides and I also respect the democratic vote rather than look down on and sneer at those who voted Brexit.

Given your apparent disdain for The Guardian and those who read it, I find your assertion that you seek out information from a variety of sources somewhat hard to believe.

Regardless, everyone draws the line somewhere. The overwhelming majority of people obtain their news from a very limited number of sources. Hence, accusing someone of reading only that which confirms their own bias is somewhat hypocritical, because pretty much everyone is guilty of being biased and lacking objectivity to some extent.

yosser hughes wrote: »

Sneering and looking down on people who chose an option you do not like, is not respect.

Says the guy who is sneering at people who read The Guardian.

Anyway, who says I have to respect Brexit voters? Who says I have to respect non-Brexit voters for that matter? I can respect the outcome of the referendum, even if I think the decision to hold it in the first place was stupid, but that doesn’t mean I have to respect people’s reasons for voting as they did.

If someone told you they voted to remain in the EU because they heard that the EU is made of chocolate, would they earn your respect?

ancapailldorcha

yosser hughes wrote: »

I also respect the democratic vote rather than look down on and sneer at those who voted Brexit.

I'm confused. It's ok for the triumphant Brexiteers to rub over 16 million people's noses in it after the referendum? We've had endless aphorisms about the will of the people and remoaners and yet still the right-wing nationalists still trot out their victim complex at every turn.

yosser hughes

Thomas__ wrote: »

I don´t have any respect for chauvinists, nationalistic extremists and people who dream of a revival of a long gone imperialistic era. I simply avoid them.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm confused. It's ok for the triumphant Brexiteers to rub over 16 million people's noses in it after the referendum? We've had endless aphorisms about the will of the people and remoaners and yet still the right-wing nationalists still trot out their victim complex at every turn.

Indeed. Just to clarify, everyone who voted Brexit are right-wing,chauvinistic,nationalist exremists?
Well carry on so.
This is hilarious.

First Up

yosser hughes wrote:

Indeed. Just to clarify, everyone who voted Brexit are right-wing,chauvinistic,nationalist exremists?

Not what he said.

You are good at jumping to the wrong conclusion - possibly because you do it so often.

djpbarry

yosser hughes wrote: »

Indeed. Just to clarify, everyone who voted Brexit are right-wing,chauvinistic,nationalist exremists?
Well carry on so.
This is hilarious.

Couldn't help notice you didn't answer my question - here it is again in case you missed it...

If someone told you they voted to remain in the EU because they heard that the EU is made of chocolate, would they earn your respect?

djpbarry

Getting back to the general level of delusion among the those who voted for Brexit, this is one of the most "liked" comments under the article on the BBC website announcing that Theresa May will trigger Brexit on the 29th:

Good. Let's get this Brexit show on the road ������

Let the negotiations begin: a sport the EU are dreadful at, while we enjoy a star lineup of arguably the finest negotiators on the planet augmenting our own, loaned from our fabulous Commonwealth Family members: Australia and NZ.

Sit back and enjoy the 2 year comedy of bumbling Michel Barnier (EU Chief Brexit negotiator) being schooled.

Now, I'm not saying this is representative of everyone who voted for Brexit, but it's illustrative of the hopelessly high expectations that May et al. have raised going into the negotiations. I can see people getting very angry very quickly when it becomes apparent that this is going to be whole lot tougher than expected.

ancapailldorcha

djpbarry wrote: »

Now, I'm not saying this is representative of everyone who voted for Brexit, but it's illustrative of the hopelessly high expectations that May et al. have raised going into the negotiations. I can see people getting very angry very quickly when it becomes apparent that this is going to be whole lot tougher than expected.

It precedes May by a long way. For decades, the media have been feeding American-style little Englander nonsense to the masses to the point where they can't compute that the UK's wealth and status might be due, at least in part to its relationships with its neighbours. For example, how many times have you heard it claimed that countries were queuing up to sign trade deals with the UK post-Brexit?

dinorebel

djpbarry wrote: »

Getting back to the general level of delusion among the those who voted for Brexit, this is one of the most "liked" comments under the article on the BBC website announcing that Theresa May will trigger Brexit on the 29th:



Now, I'm not saying this is representative of everyone who voted for Brexit, but it's illustrative of the hopelessly high expectations that May et al. have raised going into the negotiations. I can see people getting very angry very quickly when it becomes apparent that this is going to be whole lot tougher than expected.

At a guess that comment is laying the irony on with a trowel.

djpbarry

dinorebel wrote: »

At a guess that comment is laying the irony on with a trowel.

Maybe, but there are plenty more like it.

I'm obviously inclined to take these things with a pinch of salt, but look at the comments section under any article that mentions Brexit, even in passing, and the most popular comments make for depressing reading.

BoatMad

djpbarry wrote: »

Maybe, but there are plenty more like it.

I'm obviously inclined to take these things with a pinch of salt, but look at the comments section under any article that mentions Brexit, even in passing, and the most popular comments make for depressing reading.

of course , The " Bulldogs" hackles are up , the Little Englanders are frothing , re-readding comments after Sturgeons call for a independence referendum, made it feel like what it must have been like when Ireland was pushing home rule and then the treaty

" Sturgeon , will find tanks on her lawn" etc etc

The sad thing is the bulldog is an aged, dying mongrel with no teeth and is about to find that this isnt going to be anything like he thought it would be

Just like Trump supporters will find same

Its a sad corruption of democracy , brought about by a convergence of lack of political ethics ( Farage , Johnson ) , certain media organisations and the guible nature of social media news

The sad thing , is that the very ones that supported this " the so-called forgotten , or dispossessed etc " , will of course be let down again , as someone said to be recently , imagine, " the unemployed and dispossessed of Wales and the North East, believing that the Tory party is going to look out for them , absolutely incredible ".

Leonard Hofstadter

On Saturday the clocks go forward an hour, on Wednesday they go back 60 years in the UK. They haven't a clue what they're doing, and they are deluded beyond belief, there is no point in even trying to reason with them now. In any case, when it inevitably goes wrong, they will blame the EU once more for merely making sure that being in a club is better than being outside it.

BoatMad

captainspeed wrote: »

On Saturday the clocks go forward an hour, on Wednesday they go back 60 years in the UK. They haven't a clue what they're doing, and they are deluded beyond belief, there is no point in even trying to reason with them now. In any case, when it inevitably goes wrong, they will blame the EU once more for merely making sure that being in a club is better than being outside it.

its illustrative to watch reruns of Faulty Towers, which was written when the UK was about to join the EEC

its like listening to a Brexit campaigner

well at least we will have no more UK inspired EU legislation thank God not Boris Johnsons fake "straight " banana stories

wes

BoatMad wrote: »

thank God not Boris Johnsons fake "straight " banana stories

They will probably make up even nuttier stuff, to distract from the mess. See North Korean anti-western propaganda for an example, of what I think we will see from the UK tabloid press. Some may think I am exaggerating, but some of the tabloids in the UK aren't far off that level of propaganda as it is.

stockdam

captainspeed wrote: »

On Saturday the clocks go forward an hour, on Wednesday they go back 60 years in the UK. They haven't a clue what they're doing, and they are deluded beyond belief, there is no point in even trying to reason with them now. In any case, when it inevitably goes wrong, they will blame the EU once more for merely making sure that being in a club is better than being outside it.

Nobody knows what will happen so what makes you certain that things will go wrong? They may do and they may not. Who knows what will happen to the UK or the USA or even to the EU or the world?
The UK will find a way forwards and money will talk. They have the 5th or 6th largest economy in the world and countries will find a way of doing business with them.
People of the UK are not deluded.....that's just a silly thing to say as their views are wide and vary from person to person.
I'd suggest not reading articles about it as most will be extreme. People like reading doom and gloom rather than "business as usual". I'd guess that some things will be worse, some things will get better, some times will be hard and some times will be good and the sun will rise every day.

First Up

stockdam wrote:

Nobody knows what will happen so what makes you certain that things will go wrong? They may do and they may not. Who knows what will happen to the UK or the USA or even to the EU or the world?

Nothing is certain but there are ways of assessing the balance of probabilities and those probabilities are heavily stacked towards an economic winter in Britain.

This isn't a game played in internet chat rooms. There is an old saying that capital goes where it is made most welcome; a lot of peoples' livelehoods depend on decisions made about where to invest, whether or not to expand and who to do business with.

The UK leaving the EU has made it less likely that they will be at the right side of those choices. It is mostly happening behind the scenes but you can be 100% sure that a lot of those choices are under review.

Thomas__

yosser hughes wrote: »

Thomas__ wrote: »

I don´t have any respect for chauvinists, nationalistic extremists and people who dream of a revival of a long gone imperialistic era. I simply avoid them.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm confused. It's ok for the triumphant Brexiteers to rub over 16 million people's noses in it after the referendum? We've had endless aphorisms about the will of the people and remoaners and yet still the right-wing nationalists still trot out their victim complex at every turn.

Indeed.  Just to clarify, everyone who voted Brexit are right-wing,chauvinistic,nationalist exremists?
Well carry on so.
This is hilarious.

In my view, the many of them really are and it wasn´t surprising to me at all, given my experiences with some British posters on BBC MBs over years (until the BBC closed down those MBs for various reasons) of which not less held some nostalgic feelings and view on the British Empire and their obsession with WWII was always striking. When I read in some British newspaper that the Brexiteers gathered at the Imperial War Museum in London to "celebrate" their "victory" in the Brexit referendum, this was only poving my point and view I had about them. Mr Farage talking about making 23rd June the British "Day of Independence", this was just another stupid remark coming from the same person I always deemed to be an utter fool.

But I tell you something. I did have my unterstanding for the Brexiteers POV and some of the critics that came up in the debates in regards of the way the EU is run were not far-fetched and by my own Standing, the EU needs dearly to untertake reformation on herself in order to become attached to the public again when she likes to survive in the mid to the long run. I was to agree with them on some points regarding reforming the EU, but what I always really found abhorrent was and is their sense of chauvinistic nationalism I never had any part of and never liked to have. Their "sense of patriotism" is the opposite to what I had in regards of the UK. For them it is rooted in exactly that chauvinistic nationalism and by some people even a racist one. My sense of UK patriotism was that of modern Britain, an open and diversity welcoming society, liberal and tolerant to every way of life within the frame of the law by live and let live.

I clearly have given away any soft of understanding for the Brexiteers the day this Neo-Nazi murdered the Labour MP Mrs Jo Cox, a man who has been of that creed for decades - as this turned out and was proven during the Court Trial - and who crossed the line to take someones life by feeling encouraged to do so in the increased mood of exactly this chauvinistic nationalism, always propagaded by the far-right and picked up by the right-wings - politicians and media alike - in order to stir anti-EU feelings and it paid off for them. But the bill isn´t written yet and they´ll see what the total amount will be in the future.   

The EU certainly has some faults, but I certainly stay with the EU than to associate myself with the likes of Brexiteers who represent all the things I only have deepest contempt for. Again, the murder of Mrs Cox was the very end for any understanding of the Brexiteers cause because she felt victim to that bad and hatefilled mood stirred up by irresponsible far-right and right-wing propagandists.

When I held EU-sceptic thoughts in the past, Brexit and the aftermath with all the nasty incidents that went along for weeks after the Brexiteers have won, it changed already with the murder of Mrs Cox, but since this Brexiteers "victory" I have become even more pro-EU than I ever have been and you can be sure that this pro-EU stance I have will last with all my determination.

Lemming

stockdam wrote: »

Nobody knows what will happen so what makes you certain that things will go wrong? They may do and they may not. Who knows what will happen to the UK or the USA or even to the EU or the world? The UK will find a way forwards and money will talk.

On the balance of probability and all things considered, the odds are not looking good for the UK coming out anywhere remotely "on top", never mind "even". But you are right about one thing, money talks & bullsh1t walks; the question in that sentiment is just who is holding the most bullsh1t in their hands ...

They have the 5th or 6th largest economy in the world and countries will find a way of doing business with them.

Not any more they don't. The UK's economic standing has alreay slid to somewhere around 7th/8th after the kicking that GBP has taken thus far.

People of the UK are not deluded.....that's just a silly thing to say as their views are wide and vary from person to person.

I have heard - in my time here - some very, very peculiar notions about what the EU is and/or what it can do expressed by enough people to know it's a bit more widespread than not.

The general level of knowledge as to what the EU is and what it can do and how it relates to national legislature is shockingly ignorant. And that's across the board.

catbear

Lemming wrote: »

Not any more they don't. The UK's economic standing has alreay slid to somewhere around 7th/8th after the kicking that GBP has taken thus far.

By GDP/PPP the UK is 9th.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)

Sterling has been given a downgrade warning as a global reserve currency because of Brexit, so another rung down the ladder for the nation awaits.

djpbarry

BoatMad wrote: »

well at least we will have no more UK inspired EU legislation thank God not Boris Johnsons fake "straight " banana stories

Don’t know about that – I can see absolutely everything that goes wrong in the UK in the future being blamed on the EU – “Look, they’re punishing us again!”

djpbarry

stockdam wrote: »

Nobody knows what will happen so what makes you certain that things will go wrong?

The UK is leaving the largest trading block in the world, which happens to be right on their doorstep and is, by some distance, their largest trading partner. It defies all logic and I have yet to see anyone provide even a semi-realistic explantion of how the inevitable loss of trade is going to be compensated for. There’s a whole lot of talk of new “opportunities”, but virtually nothing in the way of detail.

stockdam wrote: »

The UK will find a way forwards and money will talk. They have the 5th or 6th largest economy in the world and countries will find a way of doing business with them.

I’m sure they will, but there is absolutely no reason to believe that the terms of those business deals will be better than that which the UK currently has with the EU.

stockdam wrote: »

People of the UK are not deluded...

Quite a lot of them are. Recent data from YouGov suggests that the Brits think the EU needs the UK at least as much as the UK needs the EU:
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/02/08/most-brits-think-eu-needs-uk-least-much-uk-needs-e/

Data from last November showed that the overwhelming majority of people in Britain wanted the UK to remain in the EU single market, but also be able to control EU immigration:
http://natcen.ac.uk/news-media/press-releases/2016/november/voters-want-uk-to-stay-in-the-eu-single-market-but-be-able-to-control-immigration/

Both represent, at the very least, a somewhat warped view of reality.

Chips Lovell

djpbarry wrote: »

Don’t know about that – I can see absolutely everything that goes wrong in the UK in the future being blamed on the EU – “Look, they’re punishing us again!”

Yep, I'd agree with that. I think it's quite likely that any negative consequences of Brexit will be widely blamed not on Brexit, but on the EU.

Leonard Hofstadter

Be in no doubt they'll blame the EU, sure Farage has already started doing so! The right wing press is already starting to blame the EU.

You know what, I've always been a little bit ambivalent in terms of my support towards the EU (despite being a lifelong FG supporter, the most pro EU party in the country) and there are times when the EU annoys me but when I see the carry on in Britain with the little Englanders and their arrogance and wilful disdain of other countries (including some of their own, such as the North and Scotland) it has made me double down my support of the EU, I've gone from being slightly Eurosceptic to an avowed Europhile - and the little Englanders can thank themselves for completely alienating someone whose natural instincts are to vote for Conservative or centre right parties (the outward looking and socially liberal kind, not the over religious and backward kind naturally).