Brexit Referendum Superthread

seamus

Havockk wrote: »

A number of pro-Brexit MP's walked out of a select committee meeting today because the reports presented were 'Too gloomy.' Just what are these politicians doing? I become more convinced each day that they have no idea what they are in fact doing and just blunder from one day to the next merrily ignoring all warning signs.

They've been living in a bubble. These are likely the same politicians who are unaware that Ireland is not part of the UK, and who don't understand that Britain hasn't been a manufacturing powerhouse for decades.

They don't understand that Britain no longer has the power to just flex it's muscles and get what it wants from the international community. They're perplexed by bad forecasts because they think the UK can just fix it to make it better.

Leonard Hofstadter

Very interesting Guardian article, thank goodness that there are at least some in the British civil service that still understand how the world works:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/28/brexit-uk-backing-away-from-threat-to-leave-with-no-deal-say-eu-diplomats

Also worth noting that the Scottish Parliament voted 69-59 for another independence referendum - can't say I blame them, with the disaster that is Brexit there is absolutely no reason for Scotland to stick with the rest of the UK. Not everyone wants the clocks to go back 60 years tomorrow. I know if I was living in Scotland I'd campaign for and vote for independence - Scotland will be far more prosperous as an independent country inside the EU - and best of all, they will no longer have to put up with the Tories telling them what to do - instead they will join the EU table as one of 28 equal countries (hopefully).

Peregrinus

blanch152 wrote: »

Very true, but even more of a problem is that because the UK won't be involved in influencing relevant EU law, UK industry won't get a timely heads-up about what is coming down the line, and consequently will have a shorter timeframe to prepare for change, which usually comes at a cost.

I don't think so. It's impossible that, say, German or Spanish businesses would be aware of regulatory proposals relevant to their industry, and yet UK businesses would not be aware.

The process by which regulations of this kind are developed is actually a pretty transparent one. The whole topic is as dull as ditchwater, so it doesn't get much coverage in regular media, but if you have a commercial interest in knowing about it, you find out about it through the relevant trade press, participation in industry bodies, etc.

The UK, after Brexit, won't be in a good position to influence EU regulatory developments. But they'll know about them, if they care to.

Peregrinus

Good article in the Guardian injecting a note of reality (for partisans on both sides) about how the Brexit negotiations need to proceed.

Lemming

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39417715

That is just .... words fail me. You could not make this stuff up.

Call me Al

Lemming wrote: »

That is just .... words fail me. You could not make this stuff up.

And yet go to telegraph.co.UK and it's party poppers all round, bated breath anticipating if not celebrating the imminent demise of EU, complete with an article accusing BBC of not getting with the programme.
If this is a reflection of their collective ideology then no wonder these Tories walked out. The sudden officially stated shock of the reality that they aren't the Empire they once were must hsve been gauling.

oscarBravo

Peregrinus wrote: »

Good article in the Guardian injecting a note of reality (for partisans on both sides) about how the Brexit negotiations need to proceed.

I don't disagree with the thrust of the article - it's almost a truism that for a negotiation to succeed, each party must recognise the legitimate concerns of the other - but I don't think it makes all that compelling a case that the concerns of the two sides share equal legitimacy.

For example, '...they need to shake off cultural shortsightedness. The EU shrugs off British concerns over immigration as xenophobic and “un-European”...'

The phrase "concerns over immigration" is a hyperlink, and given the context it's not unreasonable to assume that the link target will explain how those concerns are legitimate and reasonable. Instead, it links to a story about how EU nationals in the UK are finding the Home Office, well... xenophobic and un-European, frankly.

Peregrinus

Well, I have to point out that the report these politicians were rejecting wasn't a report written by civil servants, or by independent experts, or anything of the kind. It was a report written basically by opposition politicians.

The idea is that a parliamentary committee (composed of backbenchers from both parties, but traditionally chaired by an opposition member) meets, hears evidence, deliberates and finally produces a report, which is laid before the house. If the report is agreed by all the members, it represents some kind of cross-party consensus or agreement; it's hard for the government of the day to dismiss it as politically motivated, or whatever. Participating in committees and producing reports is one of the ways in which backbenchers can influence the government.

Committee reports aren't always unanimous. Sometimes some members will dissent from parts of the report, or dissent from the entire report and produce a minority report. Usually they will do this because they don't feel the report is a fair presentation of, or a reasonable inference from, the evidence heard by the committee. The more dissent there is from the report, and the more partisan the breakdown between the majority supporting the report and the minority dissenting from it appears to be, the less influential the report itself is.

What's essentially happening here is that the minority are so opposed to the draft report prepared by, or under the direction of, the chairman of the committee that they are walking out. The intention is to undermine radically the credibility of the report by saying that it's not only a report they can't subscribe to, but its a report that they feel has been prepared with such bias from the get-go that they don't feel it's worth proceeding with.

Is this a fair or reasonable stance for them to take? I've no idea; I haven't read the draft report, or seen the evidence put to the committee on which the report is supposed to be based.

djpbarry

Peregrinus wrote: »

Is this a fair or reasonable stance for them to take? I've no idea...

Oh, I think we can hazard a guess.

Bear in mind that a group of (largely) Tory MPs recently sent a letter to the Board of Governors of the BBC, complaining that coverage of Brexit was altogether too gloomy (I would argue that it is slightly too optimistic).

Lemming

Hurrah. I do so love receiving suggestions to live elsewhere. Had a co-worker tell me I could pick one of 27 other countries to live in as I was "still bitter" about Brexit.

ancapailldorcha

Lemming wrote: »

Hurrah. I do so love receiving suggestions to live elsewhere. Had a co-worker tell me I could pick one of 27 other countries to live in as I was "still bitter" about Brexit.

Seriously? What an utterly petty thing to say, especially when the country needs more young, qualified people....

Lemming

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Seriously? What an utterly petty thing to say, especially when the country needs more young, qualified people....

Fairly unprompted too. Private skype message started with how he was disappointed that the magical flying unicorns hadn't materialised yet. Suggested he call BoJo and should expect a clear, concise and completely honest answer. Asked if I was still bitter, and I said I was very angry and that the whole thing was based on so many brazen lies that made normal election promises seem positively quaint & nostalgic. The rest you know.

Zubeneschamali

Lemming wrote: »

Asked if I was still bitter

Of course remainers are bitter.

But perhaps not as bitter as the Brexit voters will be in 10 years when the costs are piling up, protections are being rescinded and the race to the bottom is properly underway.

Professor Moriarty

Lemming wrote:

Fairly unprompted too. Private skype message started with how he was disappointed that the magical flying unicorns hadn't materialised yet. Suggested he call BoJo and should expect a clear, concise and completely honest answer. Asked if I was still bitter, and I said I was very angry and that the whole thing was based on so many brazen lies that made normal election promises seem positively quaint & nostalgic. The rest you know.

Ask him to swop usernames with you.

murphaph

Sad day today.

djpbarry

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

But perhaps not as bitter as the Brexit voters will be in 10 years when the costs are piling up, protections are being rescinded and the race to the bottom is properly underway.

They won't though. There was a public Q&A thing on C4 this evening based in Hull (because it's the UK City of Culture for 2017). The point was made a couple of times (in slightly different ways) that prior to the expansion of the EU in 2004, Hull was on it's knees - immigration has saved the local economy. While nobody denied this, every leave voter still insisted that immigration needs to be brought "under control" - an explanation as to what exactly this meant or why it was necessary was conspicuous by its absence. The take home message is "we don't care if the economy suffers - stop the immigrants coming."

Inquitus

djpbarry wrote: »

The take home message is "we don't care if the economy suffers - stop the immigrants coming."

A lot of the immigration they look down upon is a legacy of the British Empire and feck all to do with the EU, but they never let the facts get in the way......it's also enshrined in the Geneva convention which again has nothing to do with the EU.

wildgreen

murphaph wrote: »

Sad day today.

Pity May didn't wait another three days

Foghladh

Lemming wrote: »

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Seriously? What an utterly petty thing to say, especially when the country needs more young, qualified people....

Fairly unprompted too. Private skype message started with how he was disappointed that the magical flying unicorns hadn't materialised yet. Suggested he call BoJo and should expect a clear, concise and completely honest answer. Asked if I was still bitter, and I said I was very angry and that the whole thing was based on so many brazen lies that made normal election promises seem positively quaint & nostalgic. The rest you know.

So your point is that you work with an asshole?

djpbarry

Inquitus wrote: »

A lot of the immigration they look down upon is a legacy of the British Empire and feck all to do with the EU...

I'm not sure about that.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, there is definitely a perception among the natives that Britain is an oasis of wealth and splendour in a Europe that is teetering on the brink of collapse. The reality is that incomes in the UK are pretty low by Northern European standards.

The popular belief is that nothing has changed since the Iron Curtain came down and people coming from the likes of Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, etc. are desperately poor, have no skills or qualifications and live on bread and water. Of course, the reality is that most of them are vastly more educated than the natives.

djpbarry

Foghladh wrote: »

So your point is that you work with an asshole?

It’s an asshole that, unfortunately, most of us have met at some point and the views he/she espouses are depressingly commonplace.

I live in London, so I’m somewhat sheltered from the worst of it, but I don’t think people in Ireland realise how common the “Britain is amazing – if you don’t like, **** off back where you came from” attitude is. The notion that you’re contributing something valuable and Britain needs you is completely lost on them – apparently, we should be damn grateful that Britain has allowed us to be here.

Lemming

.

edit: DPJBarry put it more eloquently and concisely.


Also got cries of 'traitor' yesterday evening by some random BNP-stereotype sort at a protest in Sheffield in support of EU membership. He got right up in people's faces, but only the women ... funny that. Coward. But yes, it's apparently democratic to vote to leave, but anyone who disagrees with Brexit is a traitor and/or can leave if they don't like it or must shut up because ... wait for it .... democracy. Thisclown wouldn't known the word if it bit him in the arse. And apparently he isn't alone in his understanding of the word.

Sam Russell

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm not sure about that.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, there is definitely a perception among the natives that Britain is an oasis of wealth and splendour in a Europe that is teetering on the brink of collapse. The reality is that incomes in the UK are pretty low by Northern European standards.

The popular belief is that nothing has changed since the Iron Curtain came down and people coming from the likes of Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, etc. are desperately poor, have no skills or qualifications and live on bread and water. Of course, the reality is that most of them are vastly more educated than the natives.

They might be right about Eastern Europeans being poor and living on bread and water but not right about skills and qualifications. Ask the locals British to speak to the immigrants in the immigrant's language and lets see how far they get.

Poles fought bravely for Britain against the Germans in the WW II very successfully and used to be revered for it. Oh how they forget.

Britain has fallen behind the EU average (of the Euro 15) over the years and this may be behind the disaffection.

ancapailldorcha

Lemming wrote: »

.

edit: DPJBarry put it more eloquently and concisely.


Also got cries of 'traitor' yesterday evening by some random BNP-stereotype sort at a protest in Sheffield in support of EU membership. He got right up in people's faces, but only the women ... funny that. Coward. But yes, it's apparently democratic to vote to leave, but anyone who disagrees with Brexit is a traitor and/or can leave if they don't like it or must shut up because ... wait for it .... democracy. Thisclown wouldn't known the word if it bit him in the arse. And apparently he isn't alone in his understanding of the word.

When people use the words like "Traitor" and "Patriot" in this context, you know you're dealing with someone of.... inferior intelligence.

ambro25

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

When people use the words like "Traitor" and "Patriot" in this context, you know you're dealing with someone of.... inferior intelligence.

But then, when the core informational source of their continuous professional development is red tops loudly labelling the judiciary as "enemies of the people", and neither the Prime Minister nor the Justice Secretary utter even a single word about it, is there any wonder?

Lemming is spot on about his picture from the coalface in South Yorks, as is djp about the notional average Brit view of EE EU immigrants.

Personally, I put it down to educational deficit ("cretinisation of the masses through bread Facebook and games") coalescing into rampant insularist jingoism. Until more recently, never better seen in the clear than on the run up to football World Cups. Semi-legitimised for naked opportunism by UKIP and the red tops for the past 10 years, and now full legitimised politically by the Tories and the House of Commons.

By way of background, but for our stint in the Big Smoke between '04 and '08, I've been here on the ground since the mid-90s, then again since '08. I'm not British. I'm the "oh, but we didn't mean you, you're one of the good ones, we want more like you is what we mean". EU immigrants will know that song well :cool:

Alun

ambro25 wrote: »

I'm the "oh, but we didn't mean you, you're one of the good ones, we want more like you is what we mean". EU immigrants will know that song well :cool:

Indeed, I was getting that in Germany in the 80's and Netherlands in the 90's too.

Lemming

ambro25 wrote: »

Personally, I put it down to educational deficit ("cretinisation of the masses through bread Facebook and games") coalescing into rampant insularist jingoism. Until more recently, never better seen in the clear than on the run up to football World Cups. Semi-legitimised for naked opportunism by UKIP and the red tops for the past 10 years, and now full legitimised politically by the Tories and the House of Commons.

By way of background, but for our stint in the Big Smoke between '04 and '08, I've been here on the ground since the mid-90s, then again since '08. I'm not British. I'm the "oh, but we didn't mean you, you're one of the good ones, we want more like you is what we mean". EU immigrants will know that song well :cool:

I have - as you can no doubt attest ambro - encountered some very, very peculiar notions about the EU in all my time in Yorkshire. Some of it from otherwise very intelligent people. In case, from a woman who had actually spent time living in Ireland too. It baffles me. It strikes me as parts incredibly insular attitude, parts woeful ignorance of how national and EU governing assemblies work, and for those people so inclined, part nascent racism/dog-whistle.

One guy I used to work with, who has otherwise taken the time to keep himself aware of politics, just seems to fall through the cracks when it comes to what he thinks the EU is and how it works. So much as to - this morning on facebook - suggest that Ireland might want to break free of being a "vassel to the EU" and would be better off joining a union with the UK. All whilst claiming myself and a friend did not know our own history ...

djpbarry

Sam Russell wrote: »

They might be right about Eastern Europeans being poor and living on bread and water...

Well, no, not really. Is Stoke more affluent than Prague? Sheffield more affluent than Krakow? Sunderland more affluent than Ljubljana?

ancapailldorcha

ambro25 wrote: »

But then, when the core informational source of their continuous professional development is red tops loudly labelling the judiciary as "enemies of the people", and neither the Prime Minister nor the Justice Secretary utter even a single word about it, is there any wonder?

Lemming is spot on about his picture from the coalface in South Yorks, as is djp about the notional average Brit view of EE EU immigrants.

Excellent post. However, who do you blame, the red top or the person who queues up to buy it? There was a wide range of information available for consultation prior to the referendum, vast swathes of it for free. I'm reading Tim Shipman's excellent book at the moment. He details how the Stronger In campaign which was centred on the economy struggled to convince swing voters and non-Tory voters because they didn't understand terms like "Single Market" and "Non-tariff barriers" and had no knowledge whatsoever about the EU save for what those initials stand for.

ambro25 wrote: »

Personally, I put it down to educational deficit ("cretinisation of the masses through bread Facebook and games") coalescing into rampant insularist jingoism. Until more recently, never better seen in the clear than on the run up to football World Cups. Semi-legitimised for naked opportunism by UKIP and the red tops for the past 10 years, and now full legitimised politically by the Tories and the House of Commons.

Indeed. However, there are more opportunities than ever before to educate oneself on such subjects. Take the AV vote of 2011, how many people voted "No" purely because they didn't know what it was. A video on Youtube was released by CGP Grey explaining the concept quite well.

ambro25 wrote: »

By way of background, but for our stint in the Big Smoke between '04 and '08, I've been here on the ground since the mid-90s, then again since '08. I'm not British. I'm the "oh, but we didn't mean you, you're one of the good ones, we want more like you is what we mean". EU immigrants will know that song well :cool:

I was living in Brighton at the time. Green party turf and lots of students. At the medical school though, the admins were mostly Tory/UKIP voters. One o them seemed to think that the government handed out £27,000 a year to each foreigner. I asked her where she got that number from and she had no idea. To her credit, she did buy a book on it and voted remain. A research assistant seemed to desperate want someone to do her thinking for her, usually the Conservative party but that was in disarray at the time. She'd ask me why I thought I was smarter than Boris Johnson to which I'd respond by asking her why she thought she was smarter than 80% of the CBI.

I've gotten the "You're the good type of foreigner" spiel as well. It's patronising to say the least. I used to work for one chap who was quite sound but a proper "Up the empire!" little Englander. Used to tell tales about the British army's heroism. Was quite amused when our head of sales, a South African roared out "You can't say that to him, he's Irish!"

djpbarry

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I've gotten the "You're the good type of foreigner" spiel as well. It's patronising to say the least.

I've pointed out to people a number of times that I'm an immigrant, only to be corrected with something along the lines of "No, not really - you're more of an ex-pat".