Brexit Referendum Superthread

An Ciarraioch

Interesting development in EU guidelines: "No agreement between the EU and UK may apply to Gibraltar without agreement between Spain and the UK"!

https://mobile.twitter.com/thespainreport/status/847725867274911744/photo/1

Alun

djpbarry wrote: »

I've pointed out to people a number of times that I'm an immigrant, only to be corrected with something along the lines of "No, not really - you're more of an ex-pat".

I had that in Germany back in the 80's too. Usually from the sad individuals who hung out in the local "English Club" whose HQ was adorned with pictures of the Queen, and (shudder) Margaret Thatcher.

ambro25

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Excellent post. However, who do you blame, the red top or the person who queues up to buy it?

If I hadn't been put into so sanguine a mood post-referendum, by the 'new' UK government quasi-permanently out-Goebblesing the Goebbels (to the extent of private citizens having to mount legal challenges to try and restore centennial constitutional checks and balances) and selling us EU migrants down the river, I'd have leant significantly more towards the red tops, as failing most singularly in their journalistic ethos and remit, and being nothing more than the dog-whistling, shilling mouthpieces of the Murdoch worldview that they were (-on paper to begin with).

But as things are, both of them in equal measure altogether. And may they die a slow, agonising and abject death of penury, in the gutter with their gob open...

...or live in interesting times indeed, that'll do :pac:

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

There was a wide range of information available for consultation prior to the referendum, vast swathes of it for free. <...>

Indeed. However, there are more opportunities than ever before to educate oneself on such subjects. <...>

<...> A research assistant seemed to desperate want someone to do her thinking for her<...>

Apologies for butchering your post so, but it's for focus and effect re. the following.

Now, I'm French, and a fairly pure product of their Cartesian school of thought, which permeates most of the French curriculum to this day still.

That translates as learning to follow the proverbial rabbit all the time, every time, in most contexts and subjects, until you understand the logical ins, the logical outs (to the extent of your cognitive capacities) and form/arrive at your own opinion by yourself. It's as relevant to STEM subjects as to softer subjects, and to my mind critically important to making sense of the world you live in and interact with, at any given time.

A long-time bugbear of mine is the near-total absence of rational/critical thinking lessons and self-development in English schools. I have a young teenager in the British system since primary, and if I haven't butted heads 50 times (in a well-mannered, polite and sensible way, might I add) with this teacher or that headteacher over it, I haven't ever once. The worst being that they mostly agree with me, but can't/won't do anything "because the system".

The extent of spoon-feeding, from kindergarten to year 9 (what I have witnessed first hand so far) is downright frightening, and the willingness with which young(er) masses seem to be accepting social media disinformation/click bait as fact -at least in the UK- does not surprise me in the least. If I didn't take as much of an interest in my daughter's education, and inculcate some methodology to both stoke and sate her curiosity, I'm highly confident she wouldn't have the gumption to question what she sees or reads, then to go find out answers for herself.

Because none of her contemporaries (that we know personally) do: it's always "why is this?" or "why is that?" and, if no answer is provided (as in, we invite them to grab their phone, fire up their browser and try and find out their own answer first, before we answer further), instant shift to different topic or point of interest, curiosity dies with the lack of pre-chewed, parent- or Siri-provided answer.

I hold Facebook and the like as one of the greatest evils of our time. But it's not something I lay at Zuckerberg's feet. No more than Hiroshima, Nagasaki and the nauseating MAD of the Cold War era should be laid at Oppenheimer's and Einstein's feet. Great tools and discoveries, just severely misused by some, sometimes with catastrophic outcomes.

ancapailldorcha

ambro25 wrote: »

If I hadn't been put into so sanguine a mood post-referendum, by the 'new' UK government quasi-permanently out-Goebblesing the Goebbels (to the extent of private citizens having to mount legal challenges to try and restore centennial constitutional checks and balances) and selling us EU migrants down the river, I'd have leant significantly more towards the red tops, as failing most singularly in their journalistic ethos and remit, and being nothing more than the dog-whistling, shilling mouthpieces of the Murdoch worldview that they were (-on paper to begin with).

But as things are, both of them in equal measure altogether. And may they die a slow, agonising and abject death of penury, in the gutter with their gob open...

I'm not sure how bad things have to get before the scales fall from their eyes to be honest. If companies do start heading abroad, I wouldn't be surprised to see the EU get blamed and UKIP to get closer to winning outright. Baffling when you think about it. No wonder Nicola Sturgeon can't get out fast enough.

ambro25 wrote: »

...or live in interesting times indeed, that'll do :pac:
Apologies for butchering your post so, but it's for focus and effect re. the following.

Now, I'm French, and a fairly pure product of their Cartesian school of thought, which permeates most of the French curriculum to this day still.

That translates as learning to follow the proverbial rabbit all the time, every time, in most contexts and subjects, until you understand the logical ins, the logical outs (to the extent of your cognitive capacities) and form/arrive at your own opinion by yourself. It's as relevant to STEM subjects as to softer subjects, and to my mind critically important to making sense of the world you live in and interact with, at any given time.

A long-time bugbear of mine is the near-total absence of rational/critical thinking lessons and self-development in English schools. I have a young teenager in the British system since primary, and if I haven't butted heads 50 times (in a well-mannered, polite and sensible way, might I add) with this teacher or that headteacher over it, I haven't ever once. The worst being that they mostly agree with me, but can't/won't do anything "because the system".

The extent of spoon-feeding, from kindergarten to year 9 (what I have witnessed first hand so far) is downright frightening, and the willingness with which young(er) masses seem to be accepting social media disinformation/click bait as fact -at least in the UK- does not surprise me in the least. If I didn't take as much of an interest in my daughter's education, and inculcate some methodology to both stoke and sate her curiosity, I'm highly confident she wouldn't have the gumption to question what she sees or reads, then to go find out answers for herself.

Because none of her contemporaries (that we know personally) do: it's always "why is this?" or "why is that?" and, if no answer is provided (as in, we invite them to grab their phone, fire up their browser and try and find out their own answer first, before we answer further), instant shift to different topic or point of interest, curiosity dies with the lack of pre-chewed, parent- or Siri-provided answer.

It's crazy. A friend of mine is Manx. He's a news presenter, part time bodybuilder, latest clothes, Rolex, etc... I got into a debate once with him and a few friends with... sympathies for the likes of Farage, LePen, et al... This chap debated really, really well. He spoke well and remained calm throughout. Only after did I find out he did Philosophy at school which explained a lot.

I got no education on the subject when I was younger. Did a module on Critical Thinking at University but still had to Google "Cartesian".

ambro25 wrote: »

I hold Facebook and the like as one of the greatest evils of our time. But it's not something I lay at Zuckerberg's feet. No more than Hiroshima, Nagasaki and the nauseating MAD of the Cold War era should be laid at Oppenheimer's and Einstein's feet. Great tools and discoveries, just severely misused by some, sometimes with catastrophic outcomes.

All Zuckerberg has really done IMO is to enable that laziness and to enable people to create their own daft little narratives by shutting out any info they don't like. I take your point of course but ultimately, things like Facebook are what people make of them.

murphaph

Oh that Gibraltar thing has really ruffled a few right of centre newspapers in Britain. Honestly, did they think Spain would not use this opportunity to push this? Whatever one thinks about the status of Gibraltar, only an idiot could not have foreseen "problems" here. More stuff the Brexiteers just forgot to mention.

The Council under Tusk has already laid down the law to the UK as to the sequence of events. The UK is completely on the back foot. It's almost cringe worthy.

embraer170

This is the Council position... one can imagine that the Commission position (who will be leading the actual negotiation) will be even tougher.

Watching the British reaction to this is hilarious.

Billy86

djpbarry wrote: »

I've pointed out to people a number of times that I'm an immigrant, only to be corrected with something along the lines of "No, not really - you're more of an ex-pat".

Got that too, it's a pain in the hole and I really do hate that term because it tends to be reserved for 'certain types of people'. It's weird how immigrant is basically a slur to some people, it just means you migrated... literally that you moved from Point A to Point B.

My favourite was in Australia when a girl from Oldham was working with kept giving out about all the foreigners in the country. Naturally she meant Asians, and couldn't wrap her head around the fact that she was indeed an immigrant herself (I don't think she was even familiar with the term ex-pat). :pac:

Lemming

murphaph wrote: »

Oh that Gibraltar thing has really ruffled a few right of centre newspapers in Britain. Honestly, did they think Spain would not use this opportunity to push this? Whatever one thinks about the status of Gibraltar, only an idiot could not have foreseen "problems" here. More stuff the Brexiteers just forgot to mention.

The Council under Tusk has already laid down the law to the UK as to the sequence of events. The UK is completely on the back foot. It's almost cringe worthy.

I feel sorry for the people of Gibraltar as they are about to be shown just how much worth the English (as opposed to the British) associate with them, despite their being loyal to the UK. I suspect Northern Ireland wont be far behind, if not in the political negotation stakes but in how little the English have considered their position on matters economic. I expect one or both sets of people to be casually discarded as inconvenient to English nationalism and thrown to the wolves.

Edit: the only thing - when push really comes to shove and not just a shouting match - that might stiffen Westminsters resolve is loss of a militarily strategic port & airstrip.

And if they think this is messy ... just wait until the UK comes to a vote on WTO membership & schedule agreements; more than a few countries around the world that will want to extract a pound of flesh from the UK.

ate cake today. It didn't grow back immediately.

Do I have to cast a spell before or what's the craic with this cake and eat it thing?

stefanovich

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Interesting development in EU guidelines: "No agreement between the EU and UK may apply to Gibraltar without agreement between Spain and the UK"!

https://mobile.twitter.com/thespainreport/status/847725867274911744/photo/1

murphaph wrote: »

Oh that Gibraltar thing has really ruffled a few right of centre newspapers in Britain. Honestly, did they think Spain would not use this opportunity to push this? Whatever one thinks about the status of Gibraltar, only an idiot could not have foreseen "problems" here. More stuff the Brexiteers just forgot to mention.

The Council under Tusk has already laid down the law to the UK as to the sequence of events. The UK is completely on the back foot. It's almost cringe worthy.

What a way to start. Gibralter is a red line issue for the UK. I think it is disgraceful behaviour from the EU.

stefanovich

Lemming wrote: »

I feel sorry for the people of Gibraltar as they are about to be shown just how much worth the English (as opposed to the British) associate with them, despite their being loyal to the UK. I

What exactly do you mean? The only way Gibralter would be taken is by force. If you think the UK is going to sacrifice Gibralter you are delusional.

The anti-English hostility in this thread is pathetic.

stefanovich

Deleted User wrote: »

ate cake today. It didn't grow back immediately.

Do I have to cast a spell before or what's the craic with this cake and eat it thing?

Nice to see someone making a constructive contribution to the thread.

The UK voted to leave and that is what they are doing. Hopefully, over the next two years, they can come to an agreement with the EU that is mutually beneficial.

Calina

stefanovich wrote: »

What a way to start. Gibralter is a red line issue for the UK. I think it is disgraceful behaviour from the EU.

All things considered, from my point of view, threatening to withdraw security cooperation in your divorce notification is amoral. I'm not sure why the UK gets to have what it wants all the time. It's not a 4 year old child, apparently.

First Up

stefanovich wrote:

The UK voted to leave and that is what they are doing. Hopefully, over the next two years, they can come to an agreement with the EU that is mutually beneficial.

Some bits will be more mutually beneficial than others. The EU will negotiate the aspects that apply to the entire Union but each member state is also entitled to look at its bi-lateral issues.

We are being loud enough about having our "special" concerns about the CTA etc adressed. You think Spain shouldn't be allowed raise theirs?

murphaph

stefanovich wrote: »

What a way to start. Gibralter is a red line issue for the UK. I think it is disgraceful behaviour from the EU.

Gibraltar is not part of the UK. That's the legal position. I believe it should stay British if the majority living there want that but whatever deal applies to the UK post Brexit will not apply to the UK's overseas territories (these are colonies that never pushed for independence) and Gibraltar is an overseas territory that Spain had to accept as part of the EU because the UK joined before Spain and brought Gibraltar in with it.

Spain, has a veto on allowing the deal to apply to Gibraltar but every member state has a veto on everything in reality. The council were just making sure the UK is aware of this particular one, perhaps because May's A50 letter did not mention Gibraltar at all!

The UK can keep the military base while still throwing Gibraltarians under the economic bus. It's going to get interesting to see where their priorities lie.

stefanovich

Calina wrote:

All things considered, from my point of view, threatening to withdraw security cooperation in your divorce notification is amoral. I'm not sure why the UK gets to have what it wants all the time. It's not a 4 year old child, apparently.

So you are in favour of Spain taking control of Gibraltar against the will of all who live there?

stefanovich

First Up wrote:

We are being loud enough about having our "special" concerns about the CTA etc adressed. You think Spain shouldn't be allowed raise theirs?

Their concern is one of territory and making a point at the expense of all in Gibraltar.

catbear

stefanovich wrote: »

So you are in favour of Spain taking control of Gibraltar against the will of all who live there?

Are you in favour of may blocking indyref2?

Nody

stefanovich wrote: »

So you are in favour of Spain taking control of Gibraltar against the will of all who live there?

Well that's Westminster stand on Scotland becoming independent after all; consistency has to be applied for all situations and not only those that happen to align with your personal views.

A Dub in Glasgo

stefanovich wrote: »

Their concern is one of territory and making a point at the expense of all in Gibraltar.

all or the majoity?

Water John

Chris Patton will get a new job. Gibralter will go the way of Hong Cong.
It's a disputed territory. NI is not. Both the UK and ROI ceded that it was up to the will of the people of NI.

stefanovich

Nody wrote: »

Well that's Westminster stand on Scotland becoming independent after all; consistency has to be applied for all situations and not only those that happen to align with your personal views.

They had a referendum and they voted to remain in the UK. Nicola is just posturing for political gain.

stefanovich

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

all or the majoity?

99% A fairly massive majority.

Water John wrote: »

Chris Patton will get a new job. Gibralter will go the way of Hong Cong.
It's a disputed territory. NI is not. Both the UK and ROI ceded that it was up to the will of the people of NI.

There is no dispute within Gibraltar. Spain just wants the land, that is it really.

FrancieBrady

stefanovich wrote: »

They had a referendum and they voted to remain in the UK. Nicola is just posturing for political gain.

And the circumstances have changed massively and they require another ref.

stefanovich

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And the circumstances have changed massively and they require another ref.

The Brexit negotiations are ongoing. Nicola just wants disruption. It does no one any good. If they want a referendum then they can get one after 2 years.

They were part of the UK when the Brexit referendum happened and have to accept the result.

Sam Russell

stefanovich wrote: »

They had a referendum and they voted to remain in the UK. Nicola is just posturing for political gain.

They had a vote where the pro UK side said if they voted to leave they would be out of the EU. Now that the voting is over and the UK side won, they are being forced out of the EU anyway. They were also promised enhanced devolved powers that have not happened yet and do not look like happening.

The whole referendum campaign for both the EU and Scottish question were conducted under a blizzard of lies, damn lies, and broken promises.

Such massive decisions being made on a winner takes all - no matter the margin - is just plain nuts. Most democracies demand a minimum margin for constitutional change - like 60% or 75%.

stefanovich

Sam Russell wrote: »

The whole referendum campaign for both the EU and Scottish question were conducted under a blizzard of lies, damn lies, and broken promises.

Such massive decisions being made on a winner takes all - no matter the margin - is just plain nuts. Most democracies demand a minimum margin for constitutional change - like 60% or 75%.

Good thing the majority saw through the lies and voted the right way.

Perhaps they should move to proportional representation like Ireland and enjoy the mess we deal with?

FrancieBrady

stefanovich wrote: »

The Brexit negotiations are ongoing. Nicola just wants disruption. It does no one any good. If they want a referendum then they can get one after 2 years.

They were part of the UK when the Brexit referendum happened and have to accept the result.

So, 'sit down at the back there and let your masters do what they want'? That is not how it works anymore as Westminster is finding out pretty rapidly.

What is wrong with being politically disruptive anyway? Did not Westminster disrupt the last referendum with lies and false promises?

Sam Russell

stefanovich wrote: »

Good thing the majority saw through the lies and voted the right way.

Perhaps they should move to proportional representation like Ireland and enjoy the mess we deal with?

The problem here is not proportional representation but the multi-seat constituencies, where the local parish pump is the most critical issue in the voters mind. Proportional Representation is at least democratic as small parties get represented in the parliament.

The first past the post means the current UK Government has an overall majority on 37% of the popular vote, and only one seat in Scotland. That's true democracy for you.

Lemming

stefanovich wrote: »

What exactly do you mean? The only way Gibralter would be taken is by force. If you think the UK is going to sacrifice Gibralter you are delusional.

The anti-English hostility in this thread is pathetic.

Nothing in what I said was anti-English so take your innuendo and jog on.

This whole farce is being fuelled -mainly - by the rising tide of English nationalism. It's all about what England wants, not the rest of the union. The Welsh are now nervous; they've had empty platitudes. The Scottish don't want it in the first place and submitted an indepth white paper with possible ways forward; they were and are still being ignored. Northern Ireland ; well, nobody knows what to do nor does Westminster seem all that bothered. Gibraltar ; wasn't even named in the A50 letter which shows nobody even thought about them. All of the above points to Westminster pushing Brexit on England's terms, and the everyone else is along for the ride whether they consent or not.

Even if Brexit falls through, I'm not so sure the union can survive in its current guise. It only worked because there was a tolerance between the various component parts. English nationalism was mostly dormant. Now the biggest member in the union is saying "me first" and ignoring the rest of it, it sends a very poor message as to how the rest of the union is valued and regarded.

As for Gibraltar ; the current pack in Westminster are absolute amateurs to have made such a schoolboy error. And again, it shows how much they thought about Gibraltar.