Brexit Referendum Superthread

catbear

joeysoap wrote: »

Could the U.K. insist that whatever border we get with NI should apply to Gibraltar? In other words drag us in to conflict with Spain on hard/soft border controls.

Not a hope. The difference is that Gibraltar never produced a domestic terror treat for the streets of britain.

They're hyping up Gibraltar for the domestic british consumption and not out of concern for the people there. NI on the other hand has a proven record of consequences on British streets.

djpbarry

catbear wrote: »

They're hyping up Gibraltar for the domestic british consumption and not out of concern for the people there.

Yep. I'd be surprised if many people in Britain could even point to Gibraltar on a map.

That said, the call to arms presented on the front of many tabloids in recent days is genuinely disturbing. It's essentially planting the idea in the public's minds that if Britain doesn't get what it wants because the EU is being unreasonable (what other explanation could there be?), military force is an option.

FrancieBrady

djpbarry wrote: »

Yep. I'd be surprised if many people in Britain could even point to Gibraltar on a map.

That said, the call to arms presented on the front of many tabloids in recent days is genuinely disturbing. It's essentially planting the idea in the public's minds that if Britain doesn't get what it wants because the EU is being unreasonable (what other explanation could there be?), military force is an option.

Genuinely disturbing depending on how much of Maggie's PR stunt in the South Seas was orchestrated to deflect from realities at home.

Francis Pym, Alexander Haig from the US, The UN, Peru and even Reagan himself tried to put forward proposals for diplomatic negotiations but Thatcher was for war from the off. The task force of 100 ships was on the way just 3 days after the invasion.

Professor Moriarty

Guy Verhofstadt, chief Brexit negotiator for the European Parliament, sums the clusterfúck up beautifully:

" A catfight in the Conservative party that got out of hand - a loss of time, a waste of energy and a stupidity."

catbear

May is a pound shop Thatcher.

Now will those Leave voters in Spain do the patriotic thing and return home in solidarity?

Water John

That was really mind boggling. UK people who had retired to Spain voted for the UK to leave the EU.

djpbarry

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Genuinely disturbing depending on how much of Maggie's PR stunt in the South Seas was orchestrated to deflect from realities at home.

Francis Pym, Alexander Haig from the US, The UN, Peru and even Reagan himself tried to put forward proposals for diplomatic negotiations but Thatcher was for war from the off. The task force of 100 ships was on the way just 3 days after the invasion.

I'm not suggesting that May is seriously contemplating war with Spain.

What I am suggesting is that I would not be at all surprised if a sizeable minority of the British populace supports the idea of Britain threatening military action if it doesn't get its way. The tabloids are doing their utmost to imply (a) Spain has demanded Britain return control of Gibraltar and (b) a military stand-off is already underway:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3259092/gibraltar-stand-off-spanish-warship-british-boat-admiral-lord-west/
http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/life/788064/Spain-wants-Britain-give-up-Gibraltar-no-intention-Morocco-enclaves

steddyeddy

The BBC reports MEPs agree basics of EU/UK trade agreement. At this point Nigel Farage referred to MEPs as being akin to the mafia.

• transitional arrangements should be time-limited to three years and be enforced by the EU's Court of Justice
• UK citizens in the EU and EU citizens in Britain should receive "reciprocal" treatment
• the final deal should not include a "trade-off" between trade and security co-operation
• the UK should adhere to EU environmental and anti-tax evasion standards to get close trade ties
• the European Banking Authority and European Medicines Agency should be moved out of London
• the UK should pay towards costs for the EU that "arise directly from its withdrawal"

The chairman of the largest group of MEPs said this:

During the debate in Strasbourg Manfred Weber, chairman of the largest group of MEPs, the centre-right European People's Party, said: "Cherry-picking will not happen. A state outside the European Union will not have better conditions than a state inside the European Union."

FrancieBrady

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm not suggesting that May is seriously contemplating war with Spain.

What I am suggesting is that I would not be at all surprised if a sizeable minority of the British populace supports the idea of Britain threatening military action if it doesn't get its way. The tabloids are doing their utmost to imply (a) Spain has demanded Britain return control of Gibraltar and (b) a military stand-off is already underway:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3259092/gibraltar-stand-off-spanish-warship-british-boat-admiral-lord-west/
http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/life/788064/Spain-wants-Britain-give-up-Gibraltar-no-intention-Morocco-enclaves

Yeh, I know what you are saying. I am saying it is genuinely disturbing to consider what might happen if Britain decides it actually needs a war, a war it can convince its people is a necessary one.

steddyeddy

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm not suggesting that May is seriously contemplating war with Spain.

What I am suggesting is that I would not be at all surprised if a sizeable minority of the British populace supports the idea of Britain threatening military action if it doesn't get its way. The tabloids are doing their utmost to imply (a) Spain has demanded Britain return control of Gibraltar and (b) a military stand-off is already underway:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3259092/gibraltar-stand-off-spanish-warship-british-boat-admiral-lord-west/
http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/life/788064/Spain-wants-Britain-give-up-Gibraltar-no-intention-Morocco-enclaves

It isn't just the tabloids though is it? It's the ex head of the Tory party and ex head of the navy that talked of "crippling" Spain's navy.

R P McMurphy

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm not suggesting that May is seriously contemplating war with Spain.

What I am suggesting is that I would not be at all surprised if a sizeable minority of the British populace supports the idea of Britain threatening military action if it doesn't get its way. The tabloids are doing their utmost to imply (a) Spain has demanded Britain return control of Gibraltar and (b) a military stand-off is already underway:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3259092/gibraltar-stand-off-spanish-warship-british-boat-admiral-lord-west/
http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/life/788064/Spain-wants-Britain-give-up-Gibraltar-no-intention-Morocco-enclaves

You should have placed a warning on those links ... sun campaign for 'Spain and the EU to keep their hands off out rock'.

djpbarry

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yeh, I know what you are saying. I am saying it is genuinely disturbing to consider what might happen if Britain decides it actually needs a war, a war it can convince its people is a necessary one.

Fair point.

djpbarry

R P McMurphy wrote: »

You should have placed a warning on those links ... sun campaign for 'Spain and the EU to keep their hands off out rock'.

Unfortunately, a lot of people read The Sun.

catbear

djpbarry wrote: »

Unfortunately, a lot of people read The Sun.

My prediction is that when the general UK property market slows down (which it has already showed signs of doing at the top end) you'll start seeing the Sun reading White Van man becoming nervous and liable to do some really silly nationalist stuff.

steddyeddy

The MEPs voted for recognition that the island of Ireland faces unique circumstances.

The European Parliament has endorsed a resolution which states that Brexit negotiations must recognise the "unique and special circumstances confronting the Island of Ireland".

The resolution tabled by four separate groupings in the parliament, including the largest group the European People's Party, insists that negotiators must "ensure continuity and stability of the Northern Ireland peace process, and avoid the reestablishment of a hard border".

The resolution also notes that Ireland will be particularly affected by the withdrawal of the UK from the European Union, and say that the negotiating process must fully reflect the positions and interests of the citizens of all member states including Ireland.

The European Parliament's chief Brexit negotiator has said resolving the question of the Irish border would be "very difficult" but "very high on the priority list".

Guy Verhofstadt said negotiators wanted to ensure that there was no return of a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic.

European Parliament President Antonio Tajani echoed those sentiments, saying Europe was "working for peace, not against it".

They were speaking at a press conference following a vote by MEPs in Strasbourg to adopt a resolution setting out the parliaments priorities during the Brexit discussions.

Speaking during a debate on Brexit, Manfred Weber from the European People's Party said that "the Northern Ireland question is a decisive one" saying it is important to "avoid a hard border in Northern Ireland".

He also warned Britain that there would be no cherry-picking once it leaves the EU.

"A state outside of the European cannot have the same or better conditions than a state inside the European Union," he said.

Gianni Pitella, leader of the Alliance of Socialists and Democrats, said the EU had to defend the peace process in Northern Ireland.

But Phillippe Lamberts of the Green Party said the UK had chosen the most extreme interpretation of the referendum, and opted for a hard Brexit.

"How can you have a hard Brexit, without having a hard border in Ireland?" he asked.

Mr Verhofstadt, said the relationship between Europe and Britain was never a love affair, "there was no wild passion … it was more of a marriage of convenience" he said.

UKIP MEP Nigel Farage accused the European Parliament of acting like the Mafia, in extorting a price from Britain which it could not afford.

"You've shown yourselves to be vindictive and nasty, thank God we're leaving," he said.

"If you wish to have no deal, it is not us that will be hurt, it is you. We don't have to buy German motorcars, drink French wine, or eat Belgian chocolate there are a lot of other people who will give us those things," he said.

He added: "If you continue down that route it won't just be the United Kingdom that triggers Article 50, there will be many more to com

e."

djpbarry

steddyeddy wrote: »

"If you wish to have no deal, it is not us that will be hurt, it is you. We don't have to buy German motorcars, drink French wine, or eat Belgian chocolate there are a lot of other people who will give us those things," he said.

I'm curious to know who those other people are?

Zubeneschamali

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm curious to know who those other people are?

Indian motorcars, Australian wine, American chocolate?

But Farage is talking nonsense - if there is no deal, people in the UK will still buy German cars - they will just get less German car for their money.

demfad

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Indian motorcars, Australian wine, American chocolate?

But Farage is talking nonsense - if there is no deal, people in the UK will still buy German cars - they will just get less German car for their money.

The Germans could leave the engine out of Farage's new BMW to illustrate the point.

To be considered also is that many of the components for the British based car plants have to cross the channel some more than once or twice.

FrancieBrady

Looking bleak on the Indian front too.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/04/india-britain-trade-charm-offensive-business-neighbours?CMP=fb_gu

catbear

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Looking bleak on the Indian front too.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/04/india-britain-trade-charm-offensive-business-neighbours?CMP=fb_gu

And people wonder what remains of former empires.

steddyeddy

Even one small apology over the past would be enough. Apologise for partition and the bengal famine and India might be more receptive.

Sam Russell

djpbarry wrote: »

Unfortunately, a lot of people read The Sun.

I thought most just looked at the pictures.

djpbarry

Sam Russell wrote: »

I thought most just looked at the pictures.

Well, ok, they read the headlines.

An Ciarraioch

Interesting development in the European Parliament debate, with the Catalans backing Gibraltar against the Spanish government. It would be ironic if the UK supported Catalonia in order to gain tactical leverage in the negotiations, effectively recognising a unilateral vote!

http://www.elespanol.com/espana/politica/20170404/205980092_0.html

In terms of Gib, perhaps it could declare independence, and negotiate a similar arrangement to those Andorra, Monaco and San Marino have with the EU?

seamus

About as surprising as Sinn Féin MEPs taking an anti-UK stance tbh. There aren't enough Catalan MEPs to have any impact. I think it would be silly of the UK to get sidetracked on a minor issue like Catalonia to try and prove a point. The UK recognising Catalonia would mean nothing more than being provocative for the sake of it and Spain would be more likely to dig their heels in on Gibraltar.

A Little Pony

steddyeddy wrote: »

Even one small apology over the past would be enough. Apologise for partition and the bengal famine and India might be more receptive.

Partition was formed because of the religious reality in India.

ambro25

seamus wrote: »

About as surprising as Sinn Féin MEPs taking an anti-UK stance tbh. There aren't enough Catalan MEPs to have any impact. I think it would be silly of the UK to get sidetracked on a minor issue like Catalonia to try and prove a point. The UK recognising Catalonia would mean nothing more than being provocative for the sake of it and Spain would be more likely to dig their heels in on Gibraltar.

Sound logic...but if those who (like myself) suspect that May is being frogmarched into a no deal exit are right, expect that recognition sooner rather than later, as just another one of a battery of signal-giving litmus tests, duly met.

In other news, Fox's utterances of "shared values" whilst visiting Duterte are beyond contemptible. When to expect him patting Putin's back about "shared values", one wonders?

Leavers not afflicted with a terminal case of the blinkered nationalistics must feel so proud :pac:

FrancieBrady

catbear wrote: »

And people wonder what remains of former empires.

Never mind the empire, it just doesn't seem they have any clout with India.

steddyeddy

A Little Pony wrote: »

Partition was formed because of the religious reality in India.

Which partition in India? They tried it twice and it only stuck the second time. The partition of India made no sense along sectarian lines.

wes

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Looking bleak on the Indian front too.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/04/india-britain-trade-charm-offensive-business-neighbours?CMP=fb_gu

Understandable, when the message is, we want your money, but your people aren't welcome.