Brexit Referendum Superthread

Water John

The point I'm making is that the Brexit vote may have had outside interference.
I also believe it is rational that any deal negotiated is put in a Referendum to the British people.
That is the only time to make a clear cut decision. When you have the two clear choices. It is ironic that when Scotland were having their Indy Ref that those urging No were clamouring for those in favour to spell out all sorts of issues.

catbear

Water John wrote: »

The point I'm making is that the Brexit vote may have had outside interference.
I also believe it is rational that any deal negotiated is put in a Referendum to the British people.
That is the only time to make a clear cut decision. When you have the two clear choices. It is ironic that when Scotland were having their Indy Ref that those urging No were clamouring for those in favour to spell out all sorts of issues.

Do you mean to post on the other Brexit thread by chance?

Water John

No. The point I'm making is that Brexiters, who I presume were generally in favour of Scotland staying in the Union and demanded every i dotted and t crossed, making the arguement that voting in favour of independence, the Scots were buying a pig in a poke. Yet, do not apply the same rational to the Brexit decision.

masculinist

Water John wrote: »

No. The point I'm making is that Brexiters, who I presume were generally in favour of Scotland staying in the Union and demanded every i dotted and t crossed, making the arguement that voting in favour of independence, the Scots were buying a pig in a poke. Yet, do not apply the same rational to the Brexit decision.

The Scots voted to remain 'Brits' . The Brits voted out of the EU and to be independent and responsible for themselves alone. This was despite all the outside influence in the world and wall to wall media saturation trying to convince them to remain in the EU. Theres nothing else to discuss.

Water John

Sorta obvious question. Why are you posting if you say both issues are settled?
I'm just showing the contradictions in the two stances, taken by generally the same people.

You may wish to be absolute, but very few issues rarely are, and none in politics, which is the art of the possible.

masculinist

Water John wrote: »

Sorta obvious question. Why are you posting if you say both issues are settled?

A bloody stupid question if you ask me. Civic involvement never takes a break. Many like you wish to overturn democratic referendum outcomes. A great Irish example is being forced to vote twice for the Lisbon Treaty. The Greeks voted to reject bailing out banks but was blackmailed by Germany.

Water John

BTW we also voted twice, without EU involvement, on a divorce referendum.

No harm at all to be asked a second time. Actually the practice of two votes, can be used in business also, to ensure a considered outcome on a major decision. If you are firm in your view, that shouldn't phase you.

Maximus Alexander

masculinist wrote: »

A bloody stupid question if you ask me. Civic involvement never takes a break. Many like you wish to overturn democratic referendum outcomes. A great Irish example is being forced to vote twice for the Lisbon Treaty. The Greeks voted to reject bailing out banks but was blackmailed by Germany.

This always crops back up as though it were some sort of affront to democracy, rather than a particularly poignant example of it working at its best. The second Lisbon treaty referendum in Ireland was passed because the concerns that had led to people rejecting it in the first instance were addressed. That's precisely how democracy should work.

People try to portray it as though the results of the referenda were ignored. Whereas infact, we simply voted in favour after our concerns were addressed. And with a substantially higher turnout the second time. It's a weird way to distort reality. You say 'civic involvement never takes a break', then immediately bemoan examples of that being the case.

First Up

masculinist wrote: »

A bloody stupid question if you ask me. Civic involvement never takes a break. Many like you wish to overturn democratic referendum outcomes. A great Irish example is being forced to vote twice for the Lisbon Treaty. The Greeks voted to reject bailing out banks but was blackmailed by Germany.

The Greeks voted to get out of debt but reality wouldn't listen.

Shame that.

Sam Russell

masculinist wrote: »

The Scots voted to remain 'Brits' . The Brits voted out of the EU and to be independent and responsible for themselves alone. This was despite all the outside influence in the world and wall to wall media saturation trying to convince them to remain in the EU. Theres nothing else to discuss.

Actually a major factor pushed be the pro-Union with England was that Scotland would be ejected from the EU if they voted Independence, which they did not want. In the EU referendum, even though the Scots voted to remain, they will be ejected from the EU.

Every argument for or against Scottish independence applies in reverse to the EU leave campaign ironically enough. UKIP campaigned against Scottish independence as did the right wing Tories, but both for Leave the EU, and strongly deny the Sottish having a second Indy referendum (in case they win it).

Democracy is funny, the Tories control Westminster on 37% of the popular vote, while the Labour Party were totally annihilated on 32% of the popular vote.

wes

masculinist wrote: »

This was despite all the outside influence in the world and wall to wall media saturation trying to convince them to remain in the
EU.

That is untrue, plenty of papers like the Daily Mail were pro Brexit. Not that facts matter or anything......

FFS, the right wing British media, where harping on about tons of nonsense about the EU, for decades. To deny this fact, is utterly bizarre.

demfad

masculinist wrote: »

A bloody stupid question if you ask me. Civic involvement never takes a break. Many like you wish to overturn democratic referendum outcomes. A great Irish example is being forced to vote twice for the Lisbon Treaty. The Greeks voted to reject bailing out banks but was blackmailed by Germany.

The big High court that Gina Miller won (which was won again in supreme court) declared that parliament was sovereign to decide on triggering article 50 and not the execute.
The legal obligations of the referendum were satisfied once it was held lawfully, regardless of result. There is nothing that can be overturned.

A Dub in Glasgo

masculinist wrote: »

The Scots voted to remain 'Brits' . The Brits voted out of the EU and to be independent and responsible for themselves alone. This was despite all the outside influence in the world and wall to wall media saturation trying to convince them to remain in the EU. Theres nothing else to discuss.

There is plenty to discuss with respect to Scotland

The media were not wall to wall remain, there were plenty of the British media we were leave

steddyeddy

masculinist wrote: »

The Scots voted to remain 'Brits' . The Brits voted out of the EU and to be independent and responsible for themselves alone. This was despite all the outside influence in the world and wall to wall media saturation trying to convince them to remain in the EU. Theres nothing else to discuss.

Voted to remain Brits on the proviso that they remain members of the EU. Now they're not and should look to greener pastures.

murphaph

masculinist wrote: »

A bloody stupid question if you ask me. Civic involvement never takes a break. Many like you wish to overturn democratic referendum outcomes. A great Irish example is being forced to vote twice for the Lisbon Treaty. The Greeks voted to reject bailing out banks but was blackmailed by Germany.

Rubbish. You can change your mind. That's how governments change in a democracy.

If Brexit is so convincing then it'll have no trouble being passed again when a concrete picture of what it means is presented.

djpbarry

Can't help but notice the champions of democracy are only outraged when the "overturning of democratic referendum outcomes" produces results they disagree with.

Foghladh

Sam Russell wrote: »

masculinist wrote: »

The Scots voted to remain 'Brits' . The Brits voted out of the EU and to be independent and responsible for themselves alone. This was despite all the outside influence in the world and wall to wall media saturation trying to convince them to remain in the EU. Theres nothing else to discuss.

Actually a major factor pushed be the pro-Union with England was that Scotland would be ejected from the EU if they voted Independence, which they did not want. In the EU referendum, even though the Scots voted to remain, they will be ejected from the EU.

Every argument for or against Scottish independence applies in reverse to the EU leave campaign ironically enough. UKIP campaigned against Scottish independence as did the right wing Tories, but both for Leave the EU, and strongly deny the Sottish having a second Indy referendum (in case they win it).

Democracy is funny, the Tories control Westminster on 37% of the popular vote, while the Labour Party were totally annihilated on 32% of the popular vote.

Democracy is funny. In '97 Labour had 43% of the popular vote and that gave them nearly a 200 seat majority in the Commons. That's the FPTP system for you.
Personally speaking, I think that the Scots should have the opportunity for a second referendum. The circumstances have changed since the previous vote and that should be acknowledged. I'm not sure what the impact of the UK now being outside the EU would have on that however. Before it was a case of Scotland taking a place beside the remainder of the Union, with no restrictions on travel, trade etc. Now, dependent on whatever deal is struck with the EU, it could become a case of what is the stronger bond. Is the scottish love for the EU that strong? I don't know enough Scots and their opinions to gauge that one.

Jim2007

masculinist wrote: »

A bloody stupid question if you ask me. Civic involvement never takes a break. Many like you wish to overturn democratic referendum outcomes. A great Irish example is being forced to vote twice for the Lisbon Treaty. The Greeks voted to reject bailing out banks but was blackmailed by Germany.

Well given your answer it is understandable!

Let's take the Lisbon Treaty, you voted twice because there were two different proposals which should not be surprising since there is no obligation on a party to accept the first offer nor to stop negotiations, the first offer having been rejected. Democracies are fully entitled to change their minds and you need to deal with it. Because with 36 state and regional parliaments plus possible 3 state referenda required to approve EU treaty changes you can expect plenty of the same in the coming years.

catbear

technically elections are changes of mind and no one complains about they happening repeatedly.

murphaph

Even wrt membership of "Europe" the UK has voted twice. Once to join and once to leave. They will be voting upon it again, if not before Brexit then in 20 years tops when it's all gone pear shaped trading with countries on the other side of the world.

djpbarry

Foghladh wrote: »

Is the scottish love for the EU that strong?

Not especially - it's unlikely to be the principal motivator in a second independence campaign. Disillusionment with Westminster is likely to play a far bigger role.

Water John

Whilst Scotland is represented in the UK Parliament, they are not represented in the UK Govn't, with only one Conservative MP.
That certainly, gives a sense of detachment.

Jim2007

murphaph wrote: »

Even wrt membership of "Europe" the UK has voted twice. Once to join and once to leave. They will be voting upon it again, if not before Brexit then in 20 years tops when it's all gone pear shaped trading with countries on the other side of the world.

Actually every time they voted in a general election, they voted on Europe! The treaty of Rome allows each member to determine it's own method of treaty approval and in the U.K. that means the government. If the voters were unhappy with the direction the country was heading in, then was chance to correct it.

This "we never voted for it blah blah"is a lot of BS. It just shows their ignorance of how their country is run.

steddyeddy

djpbarry wrote: »

Not especially - it's unlikely to be the principal motivator in a second independence campaign. Disillusionment with Westminster is likely to play a far bigger role.

I'd disagree there. The Scottish have a completely different attitude to Europe than the English do. Brexit is seen as English and Welsh votes taking Scottish people out of the EU against their will.

ancapailldorcha

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'd disagree there. The Scottish have a completely different attitude to Europe than the English do. Brexit is seen as English and Welsh votes taking Scottish people out of the EU against their will.

I don't think the Scottish are quite the Europhilic nation they've been made out to be:

Jayop

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't think the Scottish are quite the Europhilic nation they've been made out to be:

Strange that when it came to voting on the two issues independence got about 49 percent and remaining in Europe got much higher. Whatever questions they asked in that poll the referendum results are complete at odds with it.

ancapailldorcha

Jayop wrote: »

Strange that when it came to voting on the two issues independence got about 49 percent and remaining in Europe got much higher. Whatever questions they asked in that poll the referendum results are complete at odds with it.

Independence got 44.7% of the vote while leaving the EU got 38%. Independence also had a much higher turnout that the EU referendum. More people voted to remain in the UK in Scotland than voted to remain in the EU.

steddyeddy

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't think the Scottish are quite the Europhilic nation they've been made out to be:

Have you got information about the poll handy? I couldn't find the poll size on the original article.

ancapailldorcha

steddyeddy wrote: »

Have you got information about the poll handy? I couldn't find the poll size on the original article.

It's a publicly funded poll so I'd say it's standard practice. If you look at page 14 of this link, you'll find small but increasing Euroskepticism.

CrabRevolution

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Independence got 44.7% of the vote while leaving the EU got 38%. Independence also had a much higher turnout that the EU referendum. More people voted to remain in the UK in Scotland than voted to remain in the EU.

You're not comparing the same electorates though. 16/17 year olds were allowed vote in the independence referendum, as were EU citizens. Neither of those groups could vote in the EU referendum. This meant that the remain side in the EU referendum would have had to get 75% of the vote in Scotland just to match the number of votes no got in the independence referendum.