Brexit Referendum Superthread

First Up

catbear wrote:

I don't think anyone in the EU is waiting to be thought of as anything other than the enemy in the British tabloid press.

The EU (and its constituent parts) could give a hoot about the British tabloids.

Leonard Hofstadter

Unfortunately it's behind a paywall, but a very interesting story is going to be published in tomorrow's UK Times, it seems like the great big white hope for the UK - a free trade deal with the US - is further down Mr Trump's list of priorities than.... the same thing with the EU!

Could the leave fanatics honestly please tell me how 'taking back control' and leaving the EU is working out for them?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/trump-puts-eu-ahead-of-britain-in-trade-queue-l7t8zwn7k?CMP=Sprkr-_-Editorial-_-TheTimesandTheSundayTimes-_-News-_-Imageandlink-_-Statement-_-Unspecified-_-ACCOUNT_TYPE&linkId=36769142

Nody

captainspeed wrote: »

Unfortunately it's behind a paywall, but a very interesting story is going to be published in tomorrow's UK Times, it seems like the great big white hope for the UK - a free trade deal with the US - is further down Mr Trump's list of priorities than.... the same thing with the EU!

Could the leave fanatics honestly please tell me how 'taking back control' and leaving the EU is working out for them?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/trump-puts-eu-ahead-of-britain-in-trade-queue-l7t8zwn7k?CMP=Sprkr-_-Editorial-_-TheTimesandTheSundayTimes-_-News-_-Imageandlink-_-Statement-_-Unspecified-_-ACCOUNT_TYPE&linkId=36769142

Free version confirming the above from the Independent; damn zee Germans again!

Donald Trump has bumped Britain down the queue for a new free trade agreement after Angela Merkel convinced him he should first strike a deal with the EU, it has been claimed.

Ms Merkel's lobbying reportedly led to a "realisation" in Washington that a deal with the EU would benefit the US far more than one with the UK post-Brexit.

murphaph

Just spoke with our B&B host about Brexit (actually I've been trying to avoid the subject) and surprise surprise he's convinced it'll all be great for the country. He's "sick of being told what to do" apparently. Then he says "but I'm retiring soon and want to spend half my time in Spain". Best of luck with that when the UK can't afford to cover medical treatment in the Spanish system post Brexit.

Water John

Yeah, saw last year, UK people retired in Spain and they were voting Brexit.
Fed up of the EU!!!

Calina

murphaph wrote: »

Just spoke with our B&B host about Brexit (actually I've been trying to avoid the subject) and surprise surprise he's convinced it'll all be great for the country. He's "sick of being told what to do" apparently. Then he says "but I'm retiring soon and want to spend half my time in Spain". Best of luck with that when the UK can't afford to cover medical treatment in the Spanish system post Brexit.

In a way I feel quite sorry for people like this. There seems to be a lot of them in the UK who are not good at connecting dots.

In one respect, I think the drop in sterling might be good for tourism for the UK but you cannot build your entire economy on that.

And yes, there seems to be this conviction that what Britain wants, Britain gets, so we will see it's perfectly okay for Britain to shut out people moving into the UK (unless they are wealthy) but god forbid the Spaniards would do likewise because Spain "needs" their old people who "spend money" and Germany needs Brits who "buy their cars". But they cannot see that both Spain and Germany might consider it an investment not to need Brits.

The whole disconnect between Brits doing what they want and going where they want and Euros doing it....it's sad. In a way it is evidence of utter self-absorption. And I don't think their media are good at opening their minds either.

I don't know how you fix this, or even if there's a general realisation that there's a problem. I would say it's an education thing and those tend to take a minimum of a generation or two to fix. Maybe that part is getting there but..

My feeling is that at some point in the future, if and when it all goes pearshaped for the UK, that there needs to be a supply of magnanimity on the part of the rest of the EU to do the prodigal son thing and help fix the mess. But for that to happen, I think Brexit has to come first. And it saddens me that it has come to this. I have no great desire to live in the UK again but London is, in many respects, a fabulous city, as is Edinburgh. What little I have seen of Manchester suggests it is as well.

But I think Britain needs a reboot because for all that, vast swathes of the country have not recovered from economic shocks and not only that, whereas in Ireland those shocks got absorbed by people moving around, the same level of internal migration does not seem to happen so people don't get out and see how things can be different/better. Ireland benefitted massively from being open to the world in many respects - it took years because by god we were still a backwater by the 1990s.

I remember reading an interview years ago with a senior civil servant who said one of the key pluses about joining the EEC (at the time) for Ireland was that it unshackled the country from necessarily taking its view from what was being done in the UK. It opened us up to recognising that there were many ways of solving problems. It seems to me that the UK may not have benefitted from that because it lacked the ability to see that other people solved problems differently.

In the meantime, I don't have the Schadenfreude in me to wish your B&B host finds out they'll be spending half a year in Skegness rather than Andalucia for the rest of their lives. I just regret that they cannot see the link between the EU and the freedom of the idea of spending half a year in Andalucia... Such dreams may well have remained the preserve of the rich, famous and appearing in Hello Magazine without the EU at the end of the day.

catbear

It is true Ireland within the EU is actually far more global than Britain.

Sam Russell

In the 60s and 70s when Britain was going through one of their difficult patches, the cry often heard, when German success was evident, was 'Well who won the war?' when it was a Pyrrhic victory for them as they lost all their wealth and their empire. They were left with outdated industries and a useless class war that had the unions striking against the Government and the bosses in a mutual destruction that ended coal mining, ship building, steel production, and the British owned car industry.

They will take a generation to rebuild if they are lucky, or it will take three if they are not.

Lemming

Calina wrote: »

The whole disconnect between Brits doing what they want and going where they want and Euros doing it....it's sad. In a way it is evidence of utter self-absorption. And I don't think their media are good at opening their minds either.

I meant to take a photo of the newspaper stand outside the petrol station near where I work last Thursday. If I remember next week I'll do and post it for you to see just how dire, and exceedingly biased, much of the UK media is when it comes to anything "Foreign" but especially if the words "EU" or "Europe" are involved. People complain about Irish papers being 'rags' frequently, but you haven't seen how bad it gets until you come to the UK. Christ, the Onion would be considered a broadsheet next to some of the sh1t on display here.

I remember reading an interview years ago with a senior civil servant who said one of the key pluses about joining the EEC (at the time) for Ireland was that it unshackled the country from necessarily taking its view from what was being done in the UK. It opened us up to recognising that there were many ways of solving problems. It seems to me that the UK may not have benefitted from that because it lacked the ability to see that other people solved problems differently.

Part of me suspects that much of the current British intransigence towards anything foreign stems from the fact that the UK, as a nation, has never really been humiliated on the international stage or had to deal with an emasculating situation. The nation has never been on the losing side of a major conflict where it mattered. And whilst true that it effectively waved goodbye to its empire and fortunes at the end of WW2, the national psyche wrapped itself in a safety blanket of phyrric victory so never really 'dealt' with the bigger picture. There's this sort of "We're f*cking awesome we are, the sun shines etc." thing going. And whilst pride in ones nation is perfectly normal, there would appear to be an absence of underlying introspection where Britain is concerned. Brexit may prove to be the international humiliation required to give the national psyche a brutal albeit apparently very much needed kick to the head. The tragedy will be the cost in lost lives for a generation or two because of the pride of the parents & grandparents.

Calina

Lemming wrote: »

I meant to take a photo of the newspaper stand outside the petrol station near where I work last Thursday. If I remember next week I'll do and post it for you to see just how dire, and exceedingly biased, much of the UK media is when it comes to anything "Foreign" but especially if the words "EU" or "Europe" are involved. People complain about Irish papers being 'rags' frequently, but you haven't seen how bad it gets until you come to the UK. Christ, the Onion would be considered a broadsheet next to some of the sh1t on display here.

In a way, media landscapes fascinate me. I live in Luxembourg which has a population of around half a million and somehow it is supporting a mad array of relatively decent broadsheetish newspapers in 2-3 languages.

But yes, the UK has the Daily Express which is the weirdest newspaper I have encountered that isn't actually trying to convince us aliens have landed and of course there is the Daily Mail which localises its front page heavily between England, Scotland and Ireland.

One of the sad things for the UK is that on average their language skills (for those not in multicultural backgrounds specifically) have deteriorated massively over the last 10 years particularly for those educated in the state school system. This means that increasingly, their options for getting views from outside their own bubbles are decidedly limiting. One of the things which fascinates me atm for example is the difference in coverage of the French election between the UK and France. Strangely, the UK is significantly more unbalanced than coverage in France. The UK is primarily interested in the possibility of Marine Le Pen winning in France. In the same way, they were only interested in Geert Wilders in the NL a few months ago. There is an angle which is focusing on suggesting the most disruptive result is also the most likely. This is not limited to the rags btw.

I don't understand papers like the Express though. I can't understand how people who work for the Express and the Mail make some of the headlines that they do. The Mail in particular had the Enemies of the State one before Christmas and the election one the other day. I mean, how can they not understand that they are undermining their own democracy with headlines like that?

Lemming wrote: »

Part of me suspects that much of the current British intransigence towards anything foreign stems from the fact that the UK, as a nation, has never really been humiliated on the international stage or had to deal with an emasculating situation. The nation has never been on the losing side of a major conflict where it mattered. And whilst true that it effectively waved goodbye to its empire and fortunes at the end of WW2, the national psyche wrapped itself in a safety blanket of phyrric victory so never really 'dealt' with the bigger picture. There's this sort of "We're f*cking awesome we are, the sun shines etc." thing going. And whilst pride in ones nation is perfectly normal, there would appear to be an absence of underlying introspection where Britain is concerned. Brexit may prove to be the international humiliation required to give the national psyche a brutal albeit apparently very much needed kick to the head. The tragedy will be the cost in lost lives for a generation or two because of the pride of the parents & grandparents.

The UK was broke after WW2 but against that, it got the biggest tranche of Marshall Plan funding. You could suggest that while they won the war - although I don't think it's arguable in such simplistic terms - they lost the peace and I think that rankles and that is why there are so many harp backs to the war. But the UK had opportunities and tools and more so than Germany did where the women were literally picking through the rubble on the streets to try and rebuild the cities and towns. I also think there are elements of this which are borne in English nationalism rather even than the UK. I've felt for a long time that devolution to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland was right, but it should have been accompanied by some sort of devolution for England as well. You can see this that fundamentally, the referendum was mostly an English result. Wales was marginally more in favour than Remain than England was although both voted in favour of Brexit.

The thing is, the UK, and England in particular, has generally had a huge PR, and they have massive cultural assets. The problem I think is less the UK's position in the world and less its postwar position and economic up and downs. More, I do honestly think that the biggest problem with England in particular is the level of inequality and the problems that drives in terms of opportunity, the messing with the school system has to have had a serious issue over the last 15-20 years. A lot of the wealth transfers to the poorer parts of the UK were coming from the EU because the UK just wasn't doing it at all. I don't think the UK politically would have managed a unification like German unity and the costs and transfers and tax increases that entailed because they just wouldn't have funded it.

Against that, the UK has done some massively fantastic things to temper these problems 50-70 years ago. The NHS is one thing, the Open University which even in the era of MOOCs is almost unique in the world, these were things to open up society to the poorer people. But the NHS is under serious pressure at the moment and the Open University got completely kiboshed by the Cameron fees policy resulting in a massive fall in the number of part time students.

I suppose what I am leaning towards here is the biggest problem for the UK is less the fact that it won the war and then lost its empire, and feels it should be able to lord it over other countries, and more the fact that its political structure is dysfunctional and leads to less consensus building and more entrenched positions which can then be fed out over the media. Would the Tories be the way they were if they were subject to PR and the need to negotiate coalitions more frequently? Would they be able to kill Aneurin Bevan's great if they weren't being handed massive majorities via FPTP?

Nothing is ever that simple of course, but while it's accepted that FPTP is poor from a democratic representation point of view, the impacts are rarely looked at in detail and certainly, the tendency of "my vote doesn't count anyway I live in a safe seat" contributed a lot to the referendum set up where people who voted no were genuinely surprised that on this occasion, in fact, it did count.

I'm going to close by saying no prime minister in the UK has come close to producing a visionary speech for the country of where it is and what it has got like Hugh Grant's speech in Love Actually. In a way, that's reflective of the UK and it is also rather tragic.

devnull

Calina wrote: »

And yes, there seems to be this conviction that what Britain wants, Britain gets, so we will see it's perfectly okay for Britain to shut out people moving into the UK (unless they are wealthy) but god forbid the Spaniards would do likewise because Spain "needs" their old people who "spend money" and Germany needs Brits who "buy their cars". But they cannot see that both Spain and Germany might consider it an investment not to need Brits.

And the other thing is that if the EU doesn't give the UK what they want, the UK Media accuses the EU of 'punishing them' or being bitter about Brexit because of the fact that the UK voted to leave and therefore are going to give them a bad deal because of the fact they are holding a grudge against the UK and everyone in the EU hates the UK and that they want to see the country fail because the EU is on the brink of failure and will soon collapse and they are trying to make the UK take the brunt of that before they leave.

You're seeing it now with the United States as well where a large number of them believe that he is going to be the saviour of the British Economy and he is going to agree some massive great big deal because he loves the UK and Obama hated it, but they have a very big shock coming to them because if they think Donald Trump is going to give them preferential treatment they are very much mistaken, Donald Trump is clearly only going to do whatever suits the United States and he's not going to care about the UK on it's own more than the whole of the EU who have far more to offer than a single country

What the Brexit supporters believe is that by leaving the EU they can have all the benefits of it without any of the drawbacks in a deal to be agreed with the EU and if it doesn't work out it's going to be the fault of some European Bureaucrats who are trying to do the UK down out of bitterness, because after all everyone should dance to the Brits tune, then you have people (I know a few) talking about the British Empire and the War and how they coped then and they can now, how Merkel is a failed leader who has a country full and over-run by migrants, all of which of course, have never been to Germany.

They seem to think if they kick all the foreigners out and suddenly the country will have more money and less will be spent on welfare and there will be more money for public services, despite the fact it's been proven that EU migrants contribute a lot more than they take out and for British Nationals it's the other way around, so rather than actually improving the states books it will make it worse, because there are a lot of hard-working foreigners who are essentially subsidising British people who do not want to work but this is never spoke about in the UK, thousands of Brits can scrounge for years and nothing is said, if one EU migrant does then it's all over the Daily Mail and Express.

Water John

There already saying the EU moving the 2 EU Institutions from UK is being done as punishment. They seem to think it's one of the things that should be in the negotiations. Absolutely daft.

Sam Russell

devnull wrote: »

....... talking about the British Empire and the War and how they coped then and they can now, how Merkel is a failed leader who has a country full and over-run by migrants, all of which of course, have never been to Germany.

You reminded me of an interview with an elderly gentleman being asked if he had ever been to Germany, and he replied: 'The only time I was in Germany, I was at 10,000 ft looking through a bomb site'. Clearly the war made a deep impression on many and it was probably the only time people would openly talk to neighbours and strangers without feeling the class thing. It was also a time when the nation's health was at its best, and continued so up until the 1970s, when junk food made its debut.

Much of this nostalgia has been passed on to later generations. The likes of the BBC and papers like the Daily Heil Mail, the Express, Telegraph and Sun like to foster this nostalgia.

Zubeneschamali

devnull wrote: »

And the other thing is that if the EU doesn't give the UK what they want, the UK Media accuses the EU of 'punishing them' or being bitter about Brexit

I think it is a foregone conclusion that no matter what happens, the UK rags will blame the EU.

But whereas before, the EU had to care (at least officially), now it is not our problem. The UK rags can say whatever they want as the UK sinks below the waves, it is not our problem anymore.

Jim2007

devnull wrote: »

You're seeing it now with the United States as well where a large number of them believe that he is going to be the saviour of the British Economy and he is going to agree some massive great big deal because he loves the UK and Obama hated it, but they have a very big shock coming to them because if they think Donald Trump is going to give them preferential treatment they are very much mistaken, Donald Trump is clearly only going to do whatever suits the United States and he's not going to care about the UK on it's own more than the whole of the EU who have far more to offer than a single country.

Even if he wanted to, Trump cannot do it under WTO rules... no doubt he will have one of those who knew it was so complicated moments! The UK will have to either deal with all members on the same bases (most favoured nation) or form a customs union with one or group members and accept restrictions on it's negotiating abilities.

devnull

Sam Russell wrote: »

Much of this nostalgia has been passed on to later generations. The likes of the BBC and papers like the Daily Heil Mail, the Express, Telegraph and Sun like to foster this nostalgia.

I generally do not watch the BBC because of the same reason and throughout a lot of the stuff I do watch on there I get the feeling of smugness in a lot of their programming and I totally detest the Mail, the Sun and the Express, the Telegraph is less bad, but not really what I would call a quality newspaper, but then again do I really believe that such a Newspaper exists in the UK? Not really.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I think it is a foregone conclusion that no matter what happens, the UK rags will blame the EU. But whereas before, the EU had to care (at least officially), now it is not our problem. The UK rags can say whatever they want as the UK sinks below the waves, it is not our problem anymore.

Of course, but the UK rags do not agree with that because they are asking for things which are completely crazy and are not going to be possible, after all the UK wants to leave the EU, so why should the EU care about them? It's this usual stuff about some superiority complex and feeling that everyone should dance to the UK's tune.

You have the crazy situation where they want to quit the EU whilst at the same time wanting the EU to care about the UK and help them prosper, but why should the EU do something to help the UK who will no longer be a member, to the detriment of the countries that are still there. The UK has a right to go it alone, but they want their cake and to eat it.

Zubeneschamali

devnull wrote: »

The UK has a right to go it alone, but they want their cake and to eat it.

They have a perfect right to ask that they have cake, get to eat it and have the EU replace it for them.

But they'd better get used to hearing the word "Non".

Sam Russell

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

But they'd better get used to hearing the word "Non".

That is the very expression used by De Gaule when they tried to join the first time. They were very upset.

Zubeneschamali

Sam Russell wrote: »

That is the very expression used by De Gaule when they tried to join the first time. They were very upset.

When they were EU members, however reluctant, entitled and demanding, we had to pretend to care about their feelings. Not any more.

catbear

From merely glancing whenever I'm in a shop the Daily Express seems to have four major themes, obviously Brexit being the most popular but other that seem to recur almost on a fortnightly schedule are.....

CURE FOR AZLHEIMERS

MIGRANT CHAOS

THINKING CAUSES CANCER

DO ISIS HAVE MADDIE?

and then during winter months

KILLER FREEZE ON THE WAY

devnull

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eBT6OSr1TI

The Daily Mail to a T.

Water John

De Gaulle may have had it right. The British did not have a European way of thinking.

murphaph

Water John wrote: »

De Gaulle may have had it right. The British did not have a European way of thinking.

Yeah I'm wondering when the dust settles and they've left and it's all gone pear shaped and they've applied for membership again....Will anyone except maybe​ Ireland support their application?!

I'm quite sure they will be back seeking admission in my lifetime but will a qualified majority want a by then economically sick member....

catbear

murphaph wrote: »

...Will anyone except maybe​ Ireland support their application?!

Being a large country has been so much a part of their "they've got to give us what we want" approach that it's entirely in keeping that they'll turn on us in spite when they finally realise they're getting no hop off the continentals.

I can see their talk of wanting to keep the CTA turning to threats of a militarised EU border as revenge, after all they ditched the CTA during the war.

They assume we'll be the most forgiving because they feel they can intimidate us but we may well be the ones least likely to support their readmission if they resurrect their Victorian era Punch magazine contempt for us.

Plus economically we'll want to protect the business that the UK will have lost to us too.

Lemming

devnull wrote: »

I generally do not watch the BBC because of the same reason and throughout a lot of the stuff I do watch on there I get the feeling of smugness in a lot of their programming and I totally detest the Mail, the Sun and the Express, the Telegraph is less bad, but not really what I would call a quality newspaper, but then again do I really believe that such a Newspaper exists in the UK? Not really.

The Financial Times is your best bet in that regard; it's primary target market is less concerned with jingoism as "money talks & bullsh1t walks" so tends to be a bit more point-of-fact. It too, is not immune of course. The BBC for all its critiscm is reasonably impartial; or tries to be at any rate. It's interesting that you have criticised it as it's also been vehemently criticised by leave voters if you ever have a look at the comments sections on any Wrexsh1t articles.

The Telegraph has another name by the way ... "The Torygraph"

ancapailldorcha

Lemming wrote: »

The Financial Times is your best bet in that regard; it's primary target market is less concerned with jingoism as "money talks & bullsh1t walks" so tends to be a bit more point-of-fact. It too, is not immune of course. The BBC for all its critiscm is reasonably impartial; or tries to be at any rate. It's interesting that you have criticised it as it's also been vehemently criticised by leave voters if you ever have a look at the comments sections on any Wrexsh1t articles.

The Telegraph has another name by the way ... "The Torygraph"

I take the fact that the BBC is so universally criticised as evidence that it performs its duties at least competently.

I'd say The Economist is another good source.

Sam Russell

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I take the fact that the BBC is so universally criticised as evidence that it performs its duties at least competently.

I'd say The Economist is another good source.

The BBC commentators often appear to me to be biased towards the Tories because they are undeclared Tories - but I could be biased myself. [I always think the ref has it in for our team].

ancapailldorcha

Sam Russell wrote: »

The BBC commentators often appear to me to be biased towards the Tories because they are undeclared Tories - but I could be biased myself. [I always think the ref has it in for our team].

I have noticed bits here and there which have made me pause alright. However, I think that the best the BBC can do is to have a team of political columnists and analysts with diverse opinions so that when, say Andrew Neil savages Natalie Bennett on the Sunday Politics, Andrew Marr can give her a much fairer hearing.

Water John

Brits wanting to live in Australia, don't understand when they are christian and english speaking that they shouldn't get priority.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/apr/23/obviously-we-speak-english-brits-complain-about-australias-new-citizenship-crackdown

Sam Russell

Water John wrote: »

Brits wanting to live in Australia, don't understand when they are christian and english speaking that they shouldn't get priority.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/apr/23/obviously-we-speak-english-brits-complain-about-australias-new-citizenship-crackdown

Just to rewrite your post a little - Brits wanting to live in Australia, don't understand when they are English, christian and english speaking that they shouldn't get priority.

I think that being English is the standout point. I think English nationalism is behind much of Brexit. They do not like foreigners, particularly their neighbours - France, Ireland, and Scotland. They have not liked the Irish for a very long time - see Victorian Punch cartoons.