Brexit Referendum Superthread

catbear

Bit cynical wrote: »

Well strictly speaking they only voted for leaving the EU.

I'm sorry, could you actually point me to the Brexit campaign that specifically did not want to restrict EU freedom of movement?

First Up

Fratton Fred wrote: »

so you are saying that an employer can turn down someone for a job because they are British?

If by being British they are not EU citizens, then yes - as with any non-EU citizens.

Fratton Fred

First Up wrote: »

If by being British they are not EU citizens, then yes - as with any non-EU citizens.

so basically, an employer can tell me that despite having all the qualifications and the right to live and work in Ireland, they are giving the job to a German because of my nationality?

The courts would get very busy, very quickly if that were the case.

Zubeneschamali

Bit cynical wrote: »

Can you give an example of a country where the UK allows all of its citizens to work visa free in the UK for an indefinite period of time and who are not UK citizens or nationals.

No. That has nothing to do with anything, though. That was the arrangement with Ireland before the EU, and it can be again.

The UK, at that site you were looking at, has different rules for different countries, with more rights for people from some Commonwealth countries.

So, the UK, a full EU member, sets its own rules for non-EU citizens. The EU does not.

After Brexit, if Ireland wants to continue to extend rights to UK citizens per our longstanding pre-EU rules, the EU will not overrule us, just as they do not overrule the UKs Commonwealth arrangements.

Zubeneschamali

Fratton Fred wrote: »

the right to live and work in Ireland

This is exactly what the question is about post-Brexit - will you have the right to live and work in ireland, and if so, on what terms?

I think we will revert to our pre-EU rules - UK citizens can live and work in Ireland, and will have equal rights in employment law, likewise irish citizens in the UK, even though other EU citizens will have more hoops to jump through in the UK.

First Up

Bit cynical wrote: »

This is the key issue. Ireland, for a variety of reasons, most likely wants to retain the pre-existing reciprocal working rights between the two countries or as much of it as possible.

Assuming the UK leaves the single market, to what extent will these rights remain and what can Ireland do about it within the EU?

Perigrinus is probably the most knowledgable on this forum and believes (if I understand him correctly) that we should have no problem with the EU and that the problem will mainly be on the UK side. However others believe that the informal arrangements and legislation governing these rights can't be maintained with one country in the single market and the other out.

If the UK is outside the EU and outside the Single Market, it has complete discretion over who it allows in or to have residency, whether they are citizens of an EU country or anywhere else. Free movement is only a requirement in relation to the Single Market.

Similarly every EU country can decide for itself how it wants to treat British citizens. Once the UK leaves the EU, it becomes a bi-lateral issue. Some EU countries (such as the Visegrad Four) may decide to take a common position but that is their business.

devnull

In relation to the NHS, this is something that Tory Politicians and a lot of other politicians have been playing up to and scapegoating the foreigners and migrants to keep heat of themselves, A friend of mine from when I was living in England is married to someone who works for the NHS, and what actually happens versus what the politicians say is happening is very different.

Her hospital had funding cuts that forced them to close down about 10% of beds, despite the numbers attending the hospital on the increase, the hospital and the nurses campaigned for extra funding because it was having an impact on patient care and waiting time and the increased number of patients that were put on trolleys, but no funding was forthcoming.

A local MP came on the news because a spokesperson spoke to the local press about the crisis in the hospital and said something along the lines of: "Have you noticed that if you have been to a hospital lately, there are more foreign people than there used to be and it's the growth in the population that is putting our NHS under pressure."

Thing was that my friends wife reckons there was certainly more foreign nationals attending, but the number that were was only a tiny bit more than the year before. The real impact was the cutting of beds by the government and the restricting of funding that made them have to close down wards and beds to save money and hit government spending targets.

But to the people
More foreigners + more overcrowding = too many foreigners.

People see those two things and come to that conclusion, However the number of extra foreigners availing of health services in the UK is virtually nothing compared with the capacity that has been taken out of the system by the government because of the lack of adequate funding.

So it's a ruse and the guy on the news was merely misleading the public to keep the heat of the government. The problem is that if the UK does kick all the foreigners out as some people are asking them to do, the government might actually have to be accountable for it's actions rather than deflecting the blame onto other people, at the end of the day, like I heard a politician say a few months ago, if they're blaming foreigners, they're not directly blaming the government.

seamus

catbear wrote: »

But that goes against Freedom of Movement.

I'm not sure it does.

As far as I know at present it is perfectly legal for an employer to choose to hire someone based on the fact that they are resident in Ireland, versus someone who is not.

This is a separate matter to nationality. The freedom of movement principle gives EU citizens the right to become resident in Ireland without employment, so disqualifying someone based on their being resident elsewhere, is not in violation of that principle either, provided that you would disqualify anyone of any nationality on that basis.

For example, to the best of my knowledge it is perfectly legal to choose a Pakistani man based in Ireland with a visa, above an Irishman based in Germany, purely on the basis of their location & proximity to the job.

So in the event that UK citizens can retain their right to move to Ireland, it seems that by default it will remain legal to hire a resident UK citizen over a non-resident EU citizen.

Fratton Fred

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

This is exactly what the question is about post-Brexit - will you have the right to live and work in ireland, and if so, on what terms?

I think we will revert to our pre-EU rules - UK citizens can live and work in Ireland, and will have equal rights in employment law, likewise irish citizens in the UK, even though other EU citizens will have more hoops to jump through in the UK.

There isn't really any "Pre-EU" rules, because the British and Irish relationship goes way above what the EU offers its citizens.

As you've pointed out, there is no reason why that can't continue as it is today.

seamus

Fratton Fred wrote: »

As you've pointed out, there is no reason why that can't continue as it is today.

I don't know if it's that simple.

EU law overrides domestic law. The pre-existing agreements don't take precedence just because they've been around longer, that's not how the law works. They apply unless something comes along to supersede them.

So some examination will be required as to whether the exit of the UK from the EU will cause a reversion to "default" rules (i.e. the UK will be no different to any other non-EU country), or does the special status of the IE/UK rules sit outside of the conditions of EU membership?

catbear

I've just done some digging around and according to the UK government as an UK citizen in another EU nation......

You'll have the same rights as nationals of the country you?re working in when it comes to:

working conditions
pay
social security (for example, benefits)

https://www.gov.uk/working-abroad/overview

Now after the UK leaves nothing of the existing arrangements regarding residency rights in each others nations will change as obviously they're pre-EU.

However this is where it gets interesting. Any Irish or EU national can raise an objection in the labour courts if a British citizen is hired before an EU national. I can imagine the cheap british labour suppressing EU wages meme already.

The British applicant whilst having residency is still not an EU national and will only have equal rights in the our EU state when they become full Irish citizens.

All the 1935 act means is that British citizens won't require a visa for live in Ireland but that residency does not confer EU rights.

The issue for Irish citizens in the UK is moot as the UK withdrawal from the EU brings us back under the 1949 republic of Ireland act.

Nody

Fratton Fred wrote: »

so basically, an employer can tell me that despite having all the qualifications and the right to live and work in Ireland, they are giving the job to a German because of my nationality?

The courts would get very busy, very quickly if that were the case.

Already started in Brussels for vacant positions and contracts; the rules are you can't prioritize between EU citizens but after that you'd have to fall back on race/religion/sex etc. and not hiring because you're British would be fair game (post Brexit) in EU countries in general.

murphaph

seamus wrote: »

So in the event that UK citizens can retain their right to move to Ireland, it seems that by default it will remain legal to hire a resident UK citizen over a non-resident EU citizen.

The question is can the employer choose a third country citizen over say a German if both are legally resident in Ireland. I honestly don't know the answer to that one.

I do know that it's possible for third country nationals in Germany to be considered for jobs ahead of equally qualified EU nationals if the third country national has been legally resident in Germany for a set number of years.

catbear

seamus wrote: »

For example, to the best of my knowledge it is perfectly legal to choose a Pakistani man based in Ireland with a visa, above an Irishman based in Germany, purely on the basis of their location & proximity to the job.

I presume the visa is attached to a skill/profession/education or employer because otherwise what's to restrict any casual worker from Pakistan or anywhere else outside the EU?

seamus wrote: »

So in the event that UK citizens can retain their right to move to Ireland, it seems that by default it will remain legal to hire a resident UK citizen over a non-resident EU citizen.

The UK citizens right to reside in Ireland is not subject to a visa but their partaking in our EU job market may face a constitutional challenge.

It is not in our interest for us advocate for UK citizens in this matter as they voted to end freedom of movement for themselves in the EU job market.

Fratton Fred

catbear wrote: »

I've just done some digging around and according to the UK government as an UK citizen in another EU nation......


https://www.gov.uk/working-abroad/overview

Now after the UK leaves nothing of the existing arrangements regarding residency rights in each others nations will change as obviously they're pre-EU.

However this is where it gets interesting. Any Irish or EU national can raise an objection in the labour courts if a British citizen is hired before an EU national. I can imagine the cheap british labour suppressing EU wages meme already.

The British applicant whilst having residency is still not an EU national and will only have equal rights in the our EU state when they become full Irish citizens.

All the 1935 act means is that British citizens won't require a visa for live in Ireland but that residency does not confer EU rights.

The issue for Irish citizens in the UK is moot as the UK withdrawal from the EU brings us back under the 1949 republic of Ireland act.

similarly, any British (or Nigerian, Brazilian, American etc) citizen turned doen for a job because of their nationality can make a claim of discrimination under the Employment Equality Act

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/equality_in_work/equality_in_the_workplace.html

Nody wrote: »

Already started in Brussels for vacant positions and contracts; the rules are you can't prioritize between EU citizens but after that you'd have to fall back on race/religion/sex etc. and not hiring because you're British would be fair game (post Brexit) in EU countries in general.

link please

Fratton Fred

catbear wrote: »

The UK citizens right to reside in Ireland is not subject to a visa but their partaking in our EU job market may face a constitutional challenge.

It is not in our interest for us advocate for UK citizens in this matter as they voted to end freedom of movement for themselves in the EU job market.

whilst acknowledging, of course, that any rights will be reciprocal.

Sam Russell

Fratton Fred wrote: »

similarly, any British )or Nigerian, Brazilian, American etc) citizen turned doen for a job because of their nationality can make a claim of discrimination under the Employment Equality Act

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/equality_in_work/equality_in_the_workplace.html

They would not be discriminated against because of their 'Nationality' but their work visa status. If I wish to work for, say, the British Foreign Office, they could/would decline to employ me because I do not have British nationality. They is not discrimination because of my nationality, it is because of my 'non-nationality' if you see what I mean. They would cite 'national security' or some such.

Bit cynical

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

No. That has nothing to do with anything, though. That was the arrangement with Ireland before the EU, and it can be again.

The UK, at that site you were looking at, has different rules for different countries, with more rights for people from some Commonwealth countries.

So, the UK, a full EU member, sets its own rules for non-EU citizens. The EU does not.

After Brexit, if Ireland wants to continue to extend rights to UK citizens per our longstanding pre-EU rules, the EU will not overrule us, just as they do not overrule the UKs Commonwealth arrangements.

But the argument had been made that because the UK whilst in the EU can allow citizens of other non-EU countries to work in the UK visa free that therefore Ireland can do likewise and allow UK citizens (non-EU after brexit and leaving the single market) to work visa free in Ireland. I was just wondering if the poster could provide examples of this as the countries I looked up (commonwealth countries) appeared to require visas for long term work.

Before both our countries joined the EU, there were more or less reciprocal work rights and after brexit we will be interested in maintaining these for a variety of reasons.

There seems to be disagreement on this forum and I'm looking for clarification of the issue.

Zubeneschamali

seamus wrote: »

EU law overrides domestic law.

So how come the UK has maintained special rules for Commonwealth countries all the way through its EU membership?

Because EU law does not dictate the rules in EU countries for non-EU citizens.

And when the UK is out, it's citizens are non-EU citizens and Irish law can treat them differently to Chilean citizens if we want, just as UK law treats Commonwealth citizens differently to non-Commonwealth, non-EU citizens.

catbear

Fratton Fred wrote: »

whilst acknowledging, of course, that any rights will be reciprocal.

The right to reside in eachothers nations is not a reciprocal agreement.

You know yet persist to ignore that fact.

I don't know if you're trolling or whatever but I find you're relentless ignoring of this fact to be tiresome and stupid.

Bit cynical

catbear wrote: »

I'm sorry, could you actually point me to the Brexit campaign that specifically did not want to restrict EU freedom of movement?

Can you point me to the referendum that specified restriction of movement?

Didn't think so. That's because it wasn't in the text of the question.

The referendum was about whether the the UK should leave or stay in the EU. However, as I said, polls indicate that significant numbers of people want restriction of movement and we can expect whoever wins this upcoming election to give due consideration to those polls.

seamus

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

So how come the UK has maintained special rules for Commonwealth countries all the way through its EU membership?

Sorry, of course that should read, "EU Law overrides non-EU law (for areas in which EU Law has a competency and no specific opts-out or special clauses have been provided for countries to manage their own special arrangements and requirements)"

Bit cynical

catbear wrote: »

The right to reside in eachothers nations is not a reciprocal agreement.

I think what you mean is that it is not a formal reciprocal agreement, i.e. there's no formal written treaty establishing it.

Fratton Fred

catbear wrote: »

The right to reside in eachothers nations is not a reciprocal agreement.

You know yet persist to ignore that fact.

I don't know if you're trolling or whatever but I find you're relentless ignoring of this fact to be tiresome and stupid.

between the UK and Ireland? why wouldn't it be?

Zubeneschamali

Bit cynical wrote: »

I think what you mean is that it is not a formal reciprocal agreement, i.e. there's no formal treaty establishing it.

To see it is is a reciprocal agreement, try unilaterally changing one side and see what happens!

Fratton Fred

Sam Russell wrote: »

They would not be discriminated against because of their 'Nationality' but their work visa status. If I wish to work for, say, the British Foreign Office, they could/would decline to employ me because I do not have British nationality. They is not discrimination because of my nationality, it is because of my 'non-nationality' if you see what I mean. They would cite 'national security' or some such.

a government position isn't a good example, as there are opt outs for those.

as for nationality/non-nationality isn't tomato/tomato? if someone isturned down for a role stacking shelves in Tesco because they are British, then they are being discriminated against due to their nationality which is against the Irish equality laws.

Bit cynical

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

To see it is is a reciprocal agreement, try unilaterally changing one side and see what happens!

Exactly. That is why I think it is important to establish Ireland's powers in this matter.

Jim2007

Bit cynical wrote: »

So if Ireland manages to get an agreement out of the EU, then the CTA which is essential to us can continue. Doctrinaire EU rigidity is the big danger.

CTA is useful but not essential by any stretch of the imagination. Schengen is the answer if the UK wants to continue visa free travel, there is no reason why we need to set up something different just for the UK. And it unrealistic to expect the EU to agree to having a third country issuing visa's for movement within the EU without it being subject to the same legal structure etc...

catbear

Bit cynical wrote: »

Can you point me to the referendum that specified restriction of movement?

Didn't think so. That's because it wasn't in the text of the question.

Don't be so silly. Leaving the EU can means at the very basic level the withdrawal from all EU treaties, including the Freedom of movement.

The simple one line question which was passed entirely redefines the UK relationship with the EU as that of an outsider.

What institutions like movement are now to be discussed between London and Brussels.

ambro25

Fratton Fred wrote: »

so you are saying that an employer can turn down someone for a job because they are British?

Fratton Fred wrote: »

so basically, an employer can tell me that despite having all the qualifications and the right to live and work in Ireland, they are giving the job to a German because of my nationality?

The courts would get very busy, very quickly if that were the case.

Except that no employer, even semi-sentient, would ever admit to the fact, or 'tell' you any of that, so good luck with that claim