Brexit Referendum Superthread

oscarBravo

Lemming wrote: »

Poor turn of phrase, but you get the thrust of the point I'm sure.

I do, and to be fair it wasn't you who introduced the idea of illegally deporting asylum seekers en masse.

Fratton Fred

oscarBravo wrote: »

I get that the concept of human rights is one that a lot of Brexit supporters seem to have an issue with, but wholesale shipping off of asylum seekers is frowned upon under internationally-recognised refugee conventions.

Which begs the question, what will France do with them if they plan on ending the juxtaposed agreement.

Fratton Fred

Jim2007 wrote: »

In that case they are clueless, since you can't joint the EEA without being either a member of either EFTA or EU and all that requires. The obvious but less palatable solution would be to do what is already done in the case of EU borders on mainland Europe - NI to enter into a customs union with Ireland and NI legal framework to be synced with Irish legal framework rather than the UK.

Which is what will likely happen, hence Macron's talk being just bluster for the right wing.

ambro25

Fratton Fred wrote: »

oscarBravo wrote: »

I get that the concept of human rights is one that a lot of Brexit supporters seem to have an issue with, but wholesale shipping off of asylum seekers is frowned upon under internationally-recognised refugee conventions.

Which begs the question, what will France do with them if they plan on ending the juxtaposed agreement.

Let them through onto the UK, of course.

No active shipping or pushing at the a55 required whatsoever, just enough Gallic shrugs at migrants 'hiding' under and within vehicles. They're leaving y'see, not trying to stay in, so hardly France and its custom officers' problem.

Boo-f******-hoo, tbh. Oh, and LOL :pac:

LaChatteGitane

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Which begs the question, what will France do with them if they plan on ending the juxtaposed agreement.

Give them the freedom to leave the country via the Channel.

Water John

Will it be our job to stop people crossing the 'border', who are trying to get into the UK? I don't think so.
Migrant comes in on the ferry from Cherbourg. High tails it to Larne. Not our problem.

murphaph

If the UK's economy takes a turn for the worse after Brexit then the numbers clamouring to get there will presumably fall off anyway. We're already witnessing less legal migration to the UK from the EU in anticipation of Brexit.

catbear

murphaph wrote: »

If the UK's economy takes a turn for the worse after Brexit then the numbers clamouring to get there will presumably fall off anyway. We're already witnessing less legal migration to the UK from the EU in anticipation of Brexit.

But the fact remains that once outside the EU a failed asylum seeker can start the process anew in the UK. The EU aren't going to stop them heading for a third party country.

Fratton Fred

LaChatteGitane wrote: »

Give them the freedom to leave the country via the Channel.

Which in reality they already have.

Fratton Fred

ambro25 wrote: »

Let them through onto the UK, of course.

No active shipping or pushing at the a55 required whatsoever, just enough Gallic shrugs at migrants 'hiding' under and within vehicles. They're leaving y'see, not trying to stay in, so hardly France and its custom officers' problem.

Boo-f******-hoo, tbh. Oh, and LOL :pac:

The same Gallic shrug that let terrorists in to the Bataclan?

I would hazard a guess and say that French security is a tad tighter than that.

Incidentally, how will the eu feel about France having an unpoliced border in to the schengen area?

Calina

I think they will be less worried about who is leaving Fred. Not their problem. Who is coming in otoh....

Fratton Fred

Calina wrote: »

I think they will be less worried about who is leaving Fred. Not their problem. Who is coming in otoh....

Exactly. Without French border control in the UK, anyone can hop on a train and head to any where within the schengen zone.

Zubeneschamali

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Exactly. Without French border control in the UK, anyone can hop on a train and head to any where within the

After brexit, everyone crossing the channel to the Eu will produce "papers please" or face arrest.

It will be up to the UK to police the other way - this is the Major reason for Brexit - control of your borders. The idea that the French or the EU will keep on doing it for you is mental.

Lemming

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Exactly. Without French border control in the UK, anyone can hop on a train and head to any where within the schengen zone.

Erm, Fred? You DO realise that there aren't masses of migrants holded up in Dover trying to get into France right? Or that of all the terrorist incidents that France has suffered over the last couple of years, very little of it has been sourced from across the border with the UK. So why are you trying to make an issue out of an irrelevance?

Nody

Calina wrote: »

I think they will be less worried about who is leaving Fred. Not their problem. Who is coming in otoh....

And all that export from UK sitting at the French border being checked for a few days; I'm sure companies will not mind waiting, right?

Jim2007

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Exactly. Without French border control in the UK, anyone can hop on a train and head to any where within the schengen zone.

It will happen exactly the same as it does in situations where trains cross Schengen external borders. It is nothing new.

Jim2007

Nody wrote: »

And all that export from UK sitting at the French border being checked for a few days; I'm sure companies will not mind waiting, right?

In a world of JIT assembly and manufacturing this will prove to be a decider in choosing UK suppliers. It was one of the drivers for Switzerland to seek a bilateral with the EU - Swiss suppliers were unable provide accurate delivery schedules when selling to EU factories.

Water John

The system between Norway and Sweden is the best around. But then Norway is in the EEA.

Fratton Fred

Jim2007 wrote: »

It will happen exactly the same as it does in situations where trains cross Schengen external borders. It is nothing new.

They will stop them in the middle of the tunnel?

Jim2007

Water John wrote: »

The system between Norway and Sweden is the best around. But then Norway is in the EEA.

But Norway is subject to the EFTA Court, which basis it's rulings in line with the ECJ.

Fratton Fred

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

After brexit, everyone crossing the channel to the Eu will produce "papers please" or face arrest.

It will be up to the UK to police the other way - this is the Major reason for Brexit - control of your borders. The idea that the French or the EU will keep on doing it for you is mental.

Yes, in France apparently.

You do know that the arrangement is reciprocal and that there is French immigration controls on the British side of the channel.

joeysoap

Water John wrote: »

Will it be our job to stop people crossing the 'border', who are trying to get into the UK? I don't think so.
Migrant comes in on the ferry from Cherbourg. High tails it to Larne. Not our problem.

You do know that the Irish authorities have random and frequent checkpoints just outside Dundalk targeting illegal immigrants to this country from NI(U.K.). All traffic is diverted off the M1 for a few hundred yards, and there are armed Garda at these checkpoints?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/eight-illegal-immigrants-detained-by-garda-during-checkpoint-operation-35441661.html

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gardai-man-checkpoints-on-north-border-to-grab-illegals-31448868.html

Enzokk

Francois Hollande just reiterated what many thought was the case but some Brexiteers think is "punishment" from the EU.

"We must not be punitive, but at the same time it's clear that Europe knows how to defend its interests,” said Hollande, adding, “Britain will have a less good position outside the EU than in the EU.”

Now granted Hollande is leaving but seeing as the EU seem united and have been only saying the same thing since the start, a new president (unless its Le Pen) will not deviate too much from this position.

Britain must pay price for Brexit, France’s Hollande warns

Peregrinus

joeysoap wrote: »

You do know that the Irish authorities have random and frequent checkpoints just outside Dundalk targeting illegal immigrants to this country from NI(U.K.). All traffic is diverted off the M1 for a few hundred yards, and there are armed Garda at these checkpoints? . . .

You're just making Water John's point for him, I think. The Irish authorities attempt to detect and prevent people entering the Republic from NI who are not entitled to do so; the UK authorities don't.

And the same will apply in reverse. The Irish authorities won't attempt to stop anybody leaving the Republic and entering Northern Ireland; if the UK authorities are concerned to restrict entry from the Republic it will be up to them to do something about it.

Sam Russell

Peregrinus wrote: »

You're just making Water John's point for him, I think. The Irish authorities attempt to detect and prevent people entering the Republic from NI who are not entitled to do so; the UK authorities don't.

And the same will apply in reverse. The Irish authorities won't attempt to stop anybody leaving the Republic and entering Northern Ireland; if the UK authorities are concerned to restrict entry from the Republic it will be up to them to do something about it.

It is not clear from the report the the people detained, though illegal in Ireland, were not illegal in the UK. If they were legal in the UK, why would the UK have any interest in them?

Peregrinus

Sam Russell wrote: »

It is not clear from the report the the people detained, though illegal in Ireland, were not illegal in the UK. If they were legal in the UK, why would the UK have any interest in them?

Are you talking about the Indo reports to which joeysoap linked? There's nothing in those reports to suggest that the UK did have any interest in the people concerned.

Or have I misunderstood what you are asking?

Sam Russell

Peregrinus wrote: »

Are you talking about the Indo reports to which joeysoap linked? There's nothing in those reports to suggest that the UK did have any interest in the people concerned.

Or have I misunderstood what you are asking?

The point being made is those people were detained as illegal immigrants and were 'returned from whence they came'. The Indo report was quoted to show that the UK authorities do not police illegals entering the Republic.

Well, they may not be illegal in the UK, so why would they do anything about them?

Generally, border patrols only stop people entering, not leaving. It is a while since the Berlin Wall came down.

Peregrinus

I think we're in agreement, Sam. If, in the context of Brexit, the UK wishes to restrict the entry of EU citizens to the UK, or to restrict the entry of people into the UK from the EU (i.e. from the Republic of Ireland) it's up to the UK to do that, whether by border controls or by other measures.

The Irish authorities would be under no obligation to do it for them. Nor would they have any inclination to assist; Ireland's position is that the border should be as open as possible.

Sam Russell

Peregrinus wrote: »

I think we're in agreement, Sam. If, in the context of Brexit, the UK wishes to restrict the entry of EU citizens to the UK, or to restrict the entry of people into the UK from the EU (i.e. from the Republic of Ireland) it's up to the UK to do that, whether by border controls or by other measures.

The Irish authorities would be under no obligation to do it for them. Nor would they have any inclination to assist; Ireland's position is that the border should be as open as possible.

In fact many people in the Republic believe the border should not exist at all.

The only way the UK Authorities can control immigration, either from the EU or from the rest of the world is to introduce ID cards, which need to be carried at all times. These should be matched to work and tax records.

Of course, all this immigration controls will affect tourism, as the USA have found.

Peregrinus

Sam Russell wrote: »

In fact many people in the Republic believe the border should not exist at all.

The only way the UK Authorities can control immigration, either from the EU or from the rest of the world is to introduce ID cards, which need to be carried at all times. These should be matched to work and tax records.

Of course, all this immigration controls will affect tourism, as the USA have found.

Historically the UK, as an island nation, has found it most convenient and effecient to control immigration at the ports and airports - the points of entry. Once you're in the UK there's very little by way of population registration, etc. That's how they have avoided having identity cards up 'til now.

(Ireland, of course, took the same approach, because it too is an island state.)

In theory, the relatively open Irish border would have punched a hole in this system, were it not for the common travel area. In general, people who weren't entitled to be in the UK weren't admitted to Ireland, and vice versa. Thus there was little need for migration controls at the Irish borders.

Right. For the future there's a problem, if the UK is serious about limiting the right of entry of EU citizens. Ireland won't and can't limit the right of entry of other EU citizens, and if the UK/Irish border is unpoliced, that creates an obvious back door into the UK.

So does this mean migration controls at the Irish border? Not necessarily. Ireland wants an open border, the EU wants an open border and, migration issues notwithstanding, for a number of reasons the UK would also like an open border. Secondly, its fairly clear that the UK does want to be open to EU visitors - I predict they will have visa-free entry to the UK. What they will need is permission to work in the UK.

If you recast the UK's objectives not as "immigration control" but as "restricting working rights", then it's less clear that this is best done at borders and ports of entry. If EU citizens have free entry for purposes of tourism, study, business, etc, then it's very easy for those intending to work to get in by being, um, less than frank at the border about the purpose of their visit, so even quite onerous border controls might not be all that effective, and as you point out they'd have very unfortunate side-effects on tourism, commerce, etc.

At the same time, the UK won't want "identity cards", population registration, etc, on the continental model; the historical and political resonances are politically toxic.

I think what they're going to have to do is to police employment restrictions through employment regulation and the tax and benefits system. That's going to require a major investment in redesigning and upgrading systems, and it has some alarming data privacy/civil liberties implications, but I think the UK will decide that it's the way to go. It's when accepting employment, filing tax returns, claiming tax refunds and claiming benefits that people are going to have to establish their status, not at ports and airports.

That's my prediction, anyway.