Brexit Referendum Superthread

Chips Lovell

May reportedly told Juncker she wanted EU citizens to have the same rights as any other non-EU citizen in the UK post-Brexit.

ambro25

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

May reportedly told Juncker she wanted EU citizens to have the same rights as any other non-EU citizen in the UK post-Brexit.

Seriously? :eek:

That's diplo speak for third party national, with full-on applicability of the UK's PBS.

steddyeddy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

the papers will spin it whichever way suits their agenda. The Torygraph will see it as interfering with the election, the Guardian will see it as confirmation the Tories are evil and incompetent.

In fairness Fred Labour might be a mess right now but they will likely look for a softer Brexit than the Tories are.

ancapailldorcha

steddyeddy wrote: »

In fairness Fred Labour might be a mess right now but they will likely look for a softer Brexit than the Tories are.

I'm not so sure. A softer Brexit will mean adhering to EU regulation if membership of the single market is the goal. The Tories on the other hand might be able to go that if they gain enough seats to be able to discard the Euroskeptics and the DUP.

demfad

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm not so sure. A softer Brexit will mean adhering to EU regulation if membership of the single market is the goal. The Tories on the other hand might be able to go that if they gain enough seats to be able to discard the Euroskeptics and the DUP.

I think the option of a soft Brexit has long being gone. As Donald Tusk said early on its a hard-Brexit or no Brexit.

Rightwing

demfad wrote: »

I think the option of a soft Brexit has long being gone. As Donald Tusk said early on its a hard-Brexit or no Brexit.

Why would they even bother leaving if it was a soft Brexit? This whole thing was about immigration. That alone means it's a hard brexit.

mickoneill31

Rightwing wrote: »

Why would they even bother leaving if it was a soft Brexit? This whole thing was about immigration. That alone means it's a hard brexit.

At the time of the referendum don't think that was given much thought. I remember the interviews. They were going to save so much money and still have all the benefits they wanted.

And then some Brexiteers maintain it had nothing to do with immigration. It was all about taking back control. Again, not working out brilliantly so far.

Mezcita

Hard Brexit without them paying the bill is my call.

A quick look at the comments section of any Daily Mail Brexit related article shows that they're going mental about the EU's apparent bullying of them. If May comes back having agreed to pay up a £60bn+ bill it's not exactly going to go down too well with the people who are expecting a glorious new dawn for the UK.

Almost the perfect storm with this whole situation. Labour are massively weakened with Corbyn in charge and he almost seems ambivalent about the whole Brexit situation. The Lib Dems should do a bit better but I don't think much of Farron. One state party here we come.

Rightwing

Mezcita wrote: »

Hard Brexit without them paying the bill is my call.

A quick look at the comments section of any Daily Mail Brexit related article shows that they're going mental about the EU's apparent bullying of them. If May comes back having agreed to pay up a £60bn+ bill it's not exactly going to go down too well with the people who are expecting a glorious new dawn for the UK.

Almost the perfect storm with this whole situation. Labour are massively weakened with Corbyn in charge and he almost seems ambivalent about the whole Brexit situation. The Lib Dems should do a bit better but I don't think much of Farron. One state party here we come.

The EU are irresponsible with the 100bln bill. They could it up it again. No question about that. This will get ugly.

Professor Moriarty

Rightwing wrote: »

The EU are irresponsible with the 100bln bill. They could it up it again. No question about that. This will get ugly.

TBF, it was the FT who came up with that figure based on EU criteria. The EU hasn't formally requested that amount. This is the FT article: https://www.ft.com/content/cc7eed42-2f49-11e7-9555-23ef563ecf9a

Professor Moriarty

And so it continues. As predicted, the evil EU is trying to undermine poor Britain. It's just not cricket.

Theresa May has accused the European Union of seeking to influence the result of the General Election in an unprecedented attack.
The Prime Minister has claimed that the European Commission's position had hardened over the last few weeks and that officials do not want Britain to "prosper."
She also suggested that Britain's negotiating position has been misrepresented in the European press.

A Tory complaining about misrepresentation in the press. Delicious ironing.

djpbarry

EDIT: Professor Moriarty beat me to this...

Mezcita wrote: »

A quick look at the comments section of any Daily Mail Brexit related article shows that they're going mental about the EU's apparent bullying of them.

And now May is fanning the flames by accusing EU officials of meddling with the general election:

"Britain's negotiating position in Europe has been misrepresented in the continental press," she said, in a reference to a German newspaper's account of her dinner with the EU Commission chief.

"The European Commission's negotiating stance has hardened. Threats against Britain have been issued by European politicians and officials.

"All of these acts have been deliberately timed to affect the result of the general election that will take place on 8 June."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39787353

I'd interpret this as further posturing in an effort to secure more votes from the Daily Mail brigade, but all of this could backfire very badly if her position is perceived as genuine in Brussels.

Professor Moriarty

djpbarry wrote: »

EDIT: Professor Moriarty beat me to this...

And now May is fanning the flames by accusing EU officials of meddling with the general election:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39787353

I'd interpret this as further posturing in an effort to secure more votes from the Daily Mail brigade, but all of this could backfire very badly if her position is perceived as genuine in Brussels.

It may be posturing but it's further alienating and insulting people that Britain needs to strike a deal with. Yet again, the Tories place party above country.

mickoneill31

It'll be nice some time in a far future when the UK governments don't blame the EU for everything. I suspect we're going to see several more years of it though.

Professor Moriarty

mickoneill31 wrote: »

It'll be nice some time in a far future when the UK governments don't blame the EU for everything. I suspect we're going to see several more years of it though.

Yes. Blame is the ultimate expression of irresponsibility.

steddyeddy

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm not so sure. A softer Brexit will mean adhering to EU regulation if membership of the single market is the goal. The Tories on the other hand might be able to go that if they gain enough seats to be able to discard the Euroskeptics and the DUP.

I'm not convinced May is the remainer I thought she was.

Yourself isit

Enzokk wrote: »

Funny that she accuses the EU of trying to disrupt the negotiations yet she has called for an election that will take away almost 2 months from an already tight schedule. Already the EU blaming has begun from the PM and not even the press, not even a month after article 50 has been triggered.

The election is about democratic legitimacy and about getting the vast majority of the parliament on board.

The UK has been a lot classier so far than junker et al. Releasing the details of a meal to embarrass May is shocking anti diplomatic behaviour.

Yourself isit

djpbarry wrote: »

EDIT: Professor Moriarty beat me to this...

And now May is fanning the flames by accusing EU officials of meddling with the general election:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39787353

I'd interpret this as further posturing in an effort to secure more votes from the Daily Mail brigade, but all of this could backfire very badly if her position is perceived as genuine in Brussels.

Well they probably are, right? There are European funded organisations in the UK. Makes far more sense than the Russian controlling Trump narrative.

A Dub in Glasgo

Yourself isit wrote: »

The election is about democratic legitimacy and about getting the vast majority of the parliament on board.

The UK has been a lot classier so far than junker et al. Releasing the details of a meal to embarrass May is shocking anti diplomatic behaviour.

The election is opportunism and the it is clear that May and the Tories do not like people disagreeing with them. The UK is turning into a 1 party state

Yourself isit

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The election is opportunism and the it is clear that May and the Tories do not like people disagreeing with them. The UK is turning into a 1 party state

If it turned into a "one party state" because of the elections it would be because people voted that way.

A one party state isn't a state with multiple parties and one large party but one with only one party.

What is happening here is what happened to the snp post election - the leave voters deserting labour.

A Dub in Glasgo

Yourself isit wrote: »

If it turned into a "one party state" because of the elections it would be because people voted that way.

A one party state isn't a state with multiple parties and one large party but one with only one party.

What is happening here is what happened to the snp post election - the leave voters deserting labour.

May clearly hates when people disagree with her, she can't handle it and will blow a gasket the longer this Brexit goes. Look at her pathetic statement today, if someone came out with that on this very forum, the mods would have shipped them off the the Conspiracy Theories forum

The 'one party state' is a subtle reference to the what unionists and the media have been saying about the choice of the voters in Scotland

Yourself isit

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

May clearly hates when people disagree with her, she can't handle it and will blow a gasket the longer this Brexit goes. Look at her pathetic statement today, if someone came out with that on this very forum, the mods would have shipped them off the the Conspiracy Theories forum

The 'one party state' is a subtle reference to the what unionists and the media have been saying about the choice of the voters in Scotland

Nobody expects a leader to agree with the opposition.

Anyway - this will be a hard brexit. There's clearly no compromising with the EU

ambro25

Yourself isit wrote: »

Nobody expects a leader to agree with the opposition.

Anyway - this will be a hard brexit. There's clearly no compromising with the EU

Nobody's asking her to agree with the opposition. Everybody's asking her to engage however.

Which a "strong & stable" leader and PM shouldn't have any problem with, still less when the opposition is as neutered and subservient as it currently is.

Heck, even John Major had arguably more strength of character and self-respect than May.

Some explanations and a manifesto wouldn't go amiss either, to try and elevate the GE campaign, because so far it's starting to look, waddle and quack like the Leave campaign all over again. At this rate, I'm banking on a manifesto eventually surfacing in week 7, full of typos and rushed copy-pastes, Brexit White Paper-hours-before-the-Article-50-vote in Parliament -style.

ancapailldorcha

Yourself isit wrote: »

Nobody expects a leader to agree with the opposition.

Anyway - this will be a hard brexit. There's clearly no compromising with the EU

Why on earth should the EU compromise exactly? It's been clear about the four freedoms from the very beginning and was clearer prior to the vote. I see no reason why it should join us in pandering to a Tory leader's attempt to satisfy the radicals in her party.

steddyeddy

In fairness to the EU they're the only ones telling the truth about Brexit. For the last couple of years the UK has seen most empty nationalist rhetoric gone completely unchallenged.

You can get lost with your "rigging election" crap. The British public have been lied to and misled by Farage, Boris and even May. It's not the EU's fault for telling the truth about the situation.

CrabRevolution

Yourself isit wrote: »

Nobody expects a leader to agree with the opposition.

Anyway - this will be a hard brexit. There's clearly no compromising with the EU

Blaming the EU in advance seems to be becoming a more and more common tactic as this develops. If I may quote myself from a few months ago:

CrabRevolution wrote: »

They're already getting their first shots in for the blame game for when everyone inevitably suffers, e.g. "We don't want a hard border with the RoI, the EU are forcing it" "we didn't ask to leave the single market".

As someone made the analogy here before: Its like asking for a divorce, but demanding the house, full custody of the kids, and to get to keep all joint assets. When the partner inevitably refuses you break out with "I never wanted a long and messy court battle, so this is all your fault"

Just stating your unreasonable demands and blame the other side for not giving in to your terms.

djpbarry

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It may be posturing but it's further alienating and insulting people that Britain needs to strike a deal with. Yet again, the Tories place party above country.

Yep. Laura Kuenssberg summed it up nicely:

...the prime minister was standing at a lectern in Downing Street accusing some in Brussels of trying deliberately to interfere in the election, to make trouble for her politically at home, and of wanting the Brexit talks to fail.

...

It seems the prime minister is intent on playing the Brexit card for all it's worth in the next election.

It's no coincidence that the Tories want every UKIP voter to turn to them, no coincidence that many Labour seats were Out areas in the referendum, no small matter that in 71 Labour constituencies, the UKIP vote was bigger than the size of the eventual majority.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39798588

ancapailldorcha

It seems that, having got the result they wanted on apocryphal arguments the Brexiteers seem to be pushing ever more flimsy arguments and preparing for failure early by blaming absolutely anyone else. If the EU27 want the talks to fail, all they have to do is to not turn up and wait for the two years to expire. That's it.

djpbarry

Yourself isit wrote: »

The election is about democratic legitimacy and about getting the vast majority of the parliament on board.

Democratic legitimacy my arse. The Tories had to be ordered by the courts to even recognise the legitimacy of parliament.

Yourself isit wrote: »

Releasing the details of a meal to embarrass May is shocking anti diplomatic behaviour.

You have no idea if anything was "leaked" by anyone. All you know is a German newspaper printed a story containing "quotes" from "a source".

And by the way, a British politician getting upset about something printed in a European newspaper is more than a bit rich considering the absolute nonsense that gets printed in British tabloids about the EU.

Yourself isit wrote: »

Well they probably are, right? There are European funded organisations in the UK.

I work for an organisation that receives funding from the EU. Please explain how I am "meddling with the general election"? By intending to vote in it?

Yourself isit wrote: »

There's clearly no compromising with the EU

When it comes to facts? No, I guess not.

ArmaniJeanss

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

There is still a faint hope that May, the hypocrite, is playing a long game and will use an increased majority - which might mean she will be less in thrall to Major's bastards - to get a soft Brexit.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm not so sure. A softer Brexit will mean adhering to EU regulation if membership of the single market is the goal. The Tories on the other hand might be able to go that if they gain enough seats to be able to discard the Euroskeptics and the DUP.

Look slightly more likely to me that she sees an increased majority as meaning she is not in thrall to/can discard the Europhile wing of the Tories and can go for a hard Brexit.