Brexit Referendum Superthread

ancapailldorcha

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Look slightly more likely to me that she sees an increased majority as meaning she is not in thrall to/can discard the Europhile wing of the Tories and can go for a hard Brexit.

There can't be more than a few Europhile Tories. Ken Clarke and Anna Soubry are the only two that I can name.

Leonard Hofstadter

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

There can't be more than a few Europhile Tories. Ken Clarke and Anna Soubry are the only two that I can name.

Nicky Morgan is one as well. Nearly 75% of Conservative MPs campaigned for remain although most have gone to the dark side now.

It is a sad reflection of the state Britian is in that the greatest opposition to the current Government is from the former Chancellor's new job as editor of the Evening Standard! At least we finally have someone that is some way economically competent opposed to what this dreadful Government is up to!

Enzokk

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

There is still a faint hope that May, the hypocrite, is playing a long game and will use an increased majority - which might mean she will be less in thrall to Major's bastards - to get a soft Brexit.

So we are in a situation where we have to hope that the Prime Minister will be a hypocrite and will not be true to her word. I know politicians aren't known for their integrity but to be in a position where you hope one would lose all sense of her own is a desperate state of affairs.

Yourself isit wrote: »

The election is about democratic legitimacy and about getting the vast majority of the parliament on board.

The people wanted Brexit, Parliament voted for Brexit, Labour is following the government in giving the people what they want. What more did she want?

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Look slightly more likely to me that she sees an increased majority as meaning she is not in thrall to/can discard the Europhile wing of the Tories and can go for a hard Brexit.

Seems that she got more problems from the "soft Brexit" side than those wanting a hard Brexit. We are hoping that she goes back on what she has said so far regarding what she wants from Brexit, no ECJ, no single market access, no customs union.

If she now actively goes into Out Labour areas with the message that Brexit means Brexit and she still insists on those principles (no customs union, no unrestricted EU immigration, no ECJ) then I don't see how she in any way becomes any way not beholden to the Europhile wing of her party.

Seems like she is one of them to me.

ancapailldorcha

captainspeed wrote: »

Nicky Morgan is one as well. Nearly 75% of Conservative MPs campaigned for remain although most have gone to the dark side now.

Fair enough regarding Nicky Morgan but I'd say most of the rest just know that the EU is better for the economy and voted accordingly.

Professor Moriarty

Enzokk wrote: »

So we are in a situation where we have to hope that the Prime Minister will be a hypocrite and will not be true to her word. I know politicians aren't known for their integrity but to be in a position where you hope one would lose all sense of her own is a desperate state of affairs.

Yes, this is the pretty pass to which the Little Englander Tories have brought the UK. However, it's not that May will become a hypocrite (to further personal and party gain at the expense of her country's interests), she is already a hypocrite:


April 2016: "So, if we do vote to leave the European Union, we risk bringing the development of the single market to a halt, we risk a loss of investors and businesses to remaining EU member states driven by discriminatory EU policies, and we risk going backwards when it comes to international trade. But the big question is whether, in the event of Brexit, we would be able to negotiate a new free trade agreement with the EU and on what terms."

January 2017: "I respect the position taken by European leaders who have been clear about their position, just as I am clear about mine. So an important part of the new strategic partnership we seek with the EU will be the pursuit of the greatest possible access to the single market, on a fully reciprocal basis, through a comprehensive free trade agreement."



April 2016: "The reality is that we do not know on what terms we would win access to the single market. We do know that in a negotiation we would need to make concessions in order to access it, and those concessions could well be about accepting EU regulations, over which we would have no say, making financial contributions, just as we do now, accepting free movement rules, just as we do now, or quite possibly all three combined.
"It is not clear why other EU member states would give Britain a better deal than they themselves enjoy."

January 2017: "If we were excluded from accessing the single market, we would be free to change the basis of Britain's economic model.
"But for the EU, it would mean new barriers to trade with one of the biggest economies in the world. It would jeopardise investments in Britain by EU companies worth more than half a trillion pounds... and I do not believe that the EU's leaders will seriously tell German exporters, French farmers, Spanish fishermen, the young unemployed of the eurozone, and millions of others, that they want to make them poorer, just to punish Britain and make a political point."



April 2016: "It is tempting to look at developing countries' economies, with their high growth rates, and see them as an alternative to trade with Europe. But just look at the reality of our trading relationship with China - with its dumping policies, protective tariffs and industrial-scale industrial espionage. And look at the figures. We export more to Ireland than we do to China, almost twice as much to Belgium as we do to India, and nearly three times as much to Sweden as we do to Brazil. It is not realistic to think we could just replace European trade with these new markets."
"And while we could certainly negotiate our own trade agreements, there would be no guarantee that they would be on terms as good as those we enjoy now. There would also be a considerable opportunity cost given the need to replace the existing agreements - not least with the EU itself - that we would have torn up as a consequence of our departure."

January 2017: "We want to get out into the wider world, to trade and do business all around the globe. Countries including China, Brazil, and the Gulf States have already expressed their interest in striking trade deals with us."



April 2016: "What matters is that we have brought about changes in the free movement rules as a result of the negotiation."

January 2017: "As home secretary for six years, I know that you cannot control immigration overall when there is free movement to Britain from Europe."


April 2016: "With no agreement, we know that WTO rules would oblige the EU to charge 10% tariffs on UK car exports, in line with the tariffs they impose on Japan and the United States. They would be required to do the same for all other goods upon which they impose tariffs. Not all of these tariffs are as high as 10%, but some are considerably higher."

January 2017: "And while I am confident that this scenario need never arise - while I am sure a positive agreement can be reached - I am equally clear that no deal for Britain is better than a bad deal for Britain.
"Because we would still be able to trade with Europe. We would be free to strike trade deals across the world. And we would have the freedom to set the competitive tax rates and embrace the policies that would attract the world's best companies and biggest investors to Britain."

Zubeneschamali

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

it's not that May will become a hypocrite (to further personal and party gain at the expense of her country's interests), she is already a hypocrite

Although May was officially a Remainer before the Referendum, she did very little, and there was speculation that she was keeping her options open in case of Brexit.

Craig Oliver is quoted as saying Cameron got very angry at her refusal to weigh in on the Remain side.

whatstherush

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Although May was officially a Remainer before the Referendum, she did very little, and there was speculation that she was keeping her options open in case of Brexit.

Craig Oliver is quoted as saying Cameron got very angry at her refusal to weigh in on the Remain side.

I knew she was remainer and had seen the various transcripts of what she said but have just seen the VT of her supporting remain and its actually quite jarring when compared to the trump level ****e from yesterday.

https://twitter.com/LabourEoin/status/860082122375258114

demfad

whatstherush wrote: »

I knew she was remainer and had seen the various transcripts of what she said but have just seen the VT of her supporting remain and its actually quite jarring when compared to the trump level ****e from yesterday.

https://twitter.com/LabourEoin/status/860082122375258114

She actually comes across a lot better when she is telling the truth.

BlitzKrieg

Nigel shows the depth of his knowledge of the world outside England:

http://www.hotpress.com/Nigel-Farage-blames-EU-for-stoking-Irish-nationalism/20020663.html

It's almost comical that a reoccurring theme of Brexit is British politicians being reminded that Northern Ireland exists.

Enzokk

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Yes, this is the pretty pass to which the Little Englander Tories have brought the UK. However, it's not that May will become a hypocrite (to further personal and party gain at the expense of her country's interests), she is already a hypocrite:

I just wonder how she will be perceived if she has in 12-18 months gone from a Remain advocate to talking about what is a strong Leave position and campaigning on this in this election, only to suddenly switch sides again. I guess we will have to wait and see if she changes he mind with the manifesto but unless her position in that is more moderate than she has been of the past few months I struggle to see her changing her mind yet again.

steddyeddy

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

Nigel shows the depth of his knowledge of the world outside England:

http://www.hotpress.com/Nigel-Farage-blames-EU-for-stoking-Irish-nationalism/20020663.html

It's almost comical that a reoccurring theme of Brexit is British politicians being reminded that Northern Ireland exists.

So basically Farage is warning people about stoking up nationalism. That alone should tell you all you need to know about the man's intelligence.

Billy86

steddyeddy wrote: »

So basically Farage is warning people about stoking up nationalism. That alone should tell you all you need to know about the man's intelligence integrity.

A more fitting word, in my opinion.

ancapailldorcha

Farage was happy to stoop to any depth to accomplish his objective while his contemporaries could step away. The problem is that once Pandora's Box has been opened, the evils unleashed aren't going to just fly back in.

Water John

Demfad, it is usually difficult for a politician to strike the right balance in tone and language, when they adopt a position that in truth they disagree with.
May is at hearth a remainer, but for political oppertunism is fronting Brexit with a false eagerness.
Thus IMO, she's a fraud, every much as Farage.

Rightwing

Water John wrote: »

Demfad, it is usually difficult for a politician to strike the right balance in tone and language, when they adopt a position that in truth they disagree with.
May is at hearth a remainer, but for political oppertunism is fronting Brexit with a false eagerness.
Thus IMO, she's a fraud, every much as Farage.

Farage is no fraud. He ran his campaign very well, and won. I laud him for that.

Billy86

Rightwing wrote: »

Farage is no fraud. He ran his campaign very well, and won. I laud him for that.

So... where exactly is that £350mn again?

Water John

Farage is a fraud, because like Le Pen, he spouts out whatever suits him and doesn't have to deal with the consequences for ordinary people.
May hadn't the gumption to lead with what she believed in. Herself and Johnson are well met.

Rightwing

Billy86 wrote: »

So... where exactly is that £350mn again?

That's what modern politics is all about. He took on the elites and humiliated them.

Consonata

Rightwing wrote: »

That's what modern politics is all about. He took on the elites and humiliated them.

Modern politics is all about lying?

Like I know that's probably true, but I didn't expect people to be so brazen in admitting that. :pac:

Water John

There is no 'modern' politics about. It's Goebbels and Comical Ali territory.

Fratton Fred

Water John wrote: »

Demfad, it is usually difficult for a politician to strike the right balance in tone and language, when they adopt a position that in truth they disagree with.
May is at hearth a remainer, but for political oppertunism is fronting Brexit with a false eagerness.
Thus IMO, she's a fraud, every much as Farage.

Or maybe she just thought it was better her taking on the job than Fox or Johnson?

steddyeddy

Rightwing wrote: »

That's what modern politics is all about. He took on the elites and humiliated them.

He worked in the city. How is he not elite?

Consonata

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Or maybe she just thought it was better her taking on the job than Fox or Johnson?

Go back on your political principles to take the job to deal with arguably one of the most important economic negotiations in this half of the 21st century.

Totally because she had the best interests of the Party at heart. :pac:

Billy86

Rightwing wrote: »

That's what modern politics is all about. He took on the elites and humiliated them.

Outright lying without even any nuance or shade of truth to it is not 'what modern politics is all about' - you'll need to do a better job justifying fraudulent claims about £350mn.

Rightwing

Consonata wrote: »

Modern politics is all about lying?

Like I know that's probably true, but I didn't expect people to be so brazen in admitting that. :pac:

Massive drop in political standards everywhere. Look at Turkey/US/EU etc.

ancapailldorcha

Billy86 wrote: »

So... where exactly is that £350mn again?

It was Vote Leave, the official Brexit campaign who had that (in)famous red bus. Farage was affiliated with Arron Banks' Leave.EU which did not make this claim and he even tried to have it retracted.

Water John

Leave.EU, that's the crowd celebrating their Britishness in Anthony Joshua's win. A coloured man of Irish and Nigerian descent.

Rightwing

steddyeddy wrote: »

He worked in the city. How is he not elite?

How many work in the City? 700,000+ (certainly not all elites...in the political sense at any rate)

FrancieBrady

Anyone see Michael Portillo getting upset with the Financial times not batting for Britain on This Week? Cringe!

AnGaelach

Water John wrote: »

Leave.EU, that's the crowd celebrating their Britishness in Anthony Joshua's win. A coloured man of Irish and Nigerian descent.

I don't understand this thing people sometimes do. They refuse to recognise differences in ethnicities, yet they also use a person's ethnicity as a shtick to beat their opponents.

Either Joshua is British, in which case Farage is right in celebrating him as being British, or he's an Irish/Nigerian and Farage is wrong to celebrate him for being British. Either a person's ethnicity matters, or it doesn't. You can't have it both ways.