Brexit Referendum Superthread

murphaph

BoatMad wrote: »

Yes, the end of the " whose next " after the uk , nonsense

The uk is clearly the crazy outlier

The right wing DM didn't even mention the French election result on the front page today. Disgraceful excuse for a NEWSpaper.

murphaph

@demfad, yeah I read that yesterday and I am amazed it isn't a bigger deal in parliament. It's like they have all turned to zombies. I mean come on, how would the feckin DUP have known to seek out this tiny firm in Alberta. The DUP aren't the cleverest bunch you'll come across! There is clearly coordination at play here.

Professor Moriarty

murphaph wrote: »

@demfad, yeah I read that yesterday and I am amazed it isn't a bigger deal in parliament. It's like they have all turned to zombies. I mean come on, how would the feckin DUP have known to seek out this tiny firm in Alberta. The DUP aren't the cleverest bunch you'll come across! There is clearly coordination at play here.

Sadly, that graphic is far too complicated for the average Mail/Express/Sun reader and it wouldn't be published by the Telegraph. Besides which, the voters who read those papers have been so conditioned that they would dismiss it as ''Fake News'.

murphaph

If May had the slightest shred of integrity she would have set Brexit aside and convened a public enquiry into the referendum to see just how above board it was or wasn't. It's very worrying that the crucial swing voters can be targeted with messages (often complete lies) they are likely to be receptive to. This is a new era. It simply wasn't possible to do this in years gone by.

demfad

murphaph wrote: »

If May had the slightest shred of integrity she would have set Brexit aside and convened a public enquiry into the referendum to see just how above board it was or wasn't. It's very worrying that the crucial swing voters can be targeted with messages (often complete lies) they are likely to be receptive to. This is a new era. It simply wasn't possible to do this in years gone by.

A spark has been lit now. A few questions need to be answered.
The idea that Brexit, Trump and other RW election 'campaigns' are centralised is getting traction in the UK now.
Russia's disastrous (IMO) decision re the Macron hack means another investigation. The French don't mess around here and the admin is 100% behind the investigation this time. If (when) Trump, Russia explodes severe contagion to Brexit is inevitable.
How some British politicians react now will be very interesting.

ambro25

demfad wrote: »

The great British Brexit robbery: how our democracy was hijacked

<...>

I've rarely been happier at still not having a FB or Twitter account.

And have a serious axe to grind with the French consulate, which has obviously passed or otherwise leaked my (non-public) email address [provided once only last year or 2 years ago, when I last renewed my passport and ID card, solely for private comms with the Consulate and the government's official bodies] to all the official campaigns going, in view of the sheer volume of French political spam in my inbox in the past 6 weeks or so (10 to 12 emails/day, 7/7, all of them from all candidates' official teams, for the presidential, and now legislative elections) :mad:

Water John

Its ironic that strong Le Pen and Brexiteer supporters would have more facist leanings and would be aligned with the Third Reich in their day.


With the grave misstep in targetting Macron, Puitin is madly rowing back today.
Donald can now be dealing with Putin and May as his friends.
The rest of the world will move on. The dark hand is being exposed and will hopefully whither in the light.

djpbarry

We will trigger a domino effect. After us, other northern European countries will leave, starting with Denmark.

The EU is about to collapse, disintegrating in several pieces.

Nigel Farage, June 2016.

Denmark was a bit of a random choice.

Fred_Johnson

djpbarry wrote: »

Nigel Farage, June 2016.

Denmark was a bit of a random choice.

Well, it's interesting. Last year i got talking to this female doctor from Northern Ireland. Highly educated and from a solidly Presbyterian background. Even though her family was farming stock, they were resolutely pro-Brexit. After the referendum i remember she mentioned something about how she hoped Denmark and Netherlands would follow the UK's lead. I thought nothing of it at the time. Then it hit me - of course, those are all PROTESTANT countries. Remember how Ian Paisley called the EU a Papist plot?

We all like to think we're past these sorts of things, but don't for a moment underestimate the sectarian aspect of this. Deep in English and British DNA, it's there.

catbear

Fred_Johnson wrote: »

We all like to think we're past these sorts of things, but don't for a moment underestimate the sectarian aspect of this. Deep in English and British DNA, it's there.

I would say in Englands case it more the notion of splendid isolation but certainly it's religion in Northern Irelands case. The fact they gerrymandered the politics to the point where many catholics didn't have a vote while protestants in the republic did tells you what kind a sectarian fiefdom they ruled without interference until the collapse of Stormont.

They had complete control and the instinct to put up a border again was too strong to resist.

Fred_Johnson

catbear wrote: »

I would say in Englands case it more the notion of splendid isolation but certainly it's religion in Northern Irelands case. The fact they gerrymandered the politics to the point where many catholics didn't have a vote while protestants in the republic did tells you what kind a sectarian fiefdom they ruled without interference until the collapse of Stormont.

They had complete control and the instinct to put up a border again was too strong to resist.

Yes, but don't forget that the feeling of splendid isolation or being different from the continent probably has its roots in the Reformation.

As for the Northerners, i completely agree. Seems to me that the Nationalist community in the North has moved a mile to accommodate unionism, but not an inch has been given the other way. Brexit was just seen as yet another way to jab at the fenians.

catbear

Fred_Johnson wrote: »

Yes, but don't forget that the feeling of splendid isolation or being different from the continent probably has its roots in the Reformation.

As for the Northerners, i completely agree. Seems to me that the Nationalist community in the North has moved a mile to accommodate unionism, but not an inch has been given the other way. Brexit was just seen as yet another way to jab at the fenians.

The end of partition is the end of the Unionist identity as protestantism exists in the republic.

Aside.

As for the reformation many in reformed churches would consider the Anglican church as half reformed, Henry VIII simply usurping the role of Pope over the catholic church in England but keeping the church hierarchy intact for his own uses. For example he made denial of transubstantiation a secular offense punishable by burning! This was not popular with those influenced by Luther or Calvin whose works were banned in Henry III new nation.

In ways the high anglican church preserved traditions that have changed in the RCC.

Anyway there'll be plenty of threads to cover that in this year of the 500 anniversary of Luther's 95 Theses.

steddyeddy

Ian Duncan Smith warns Marcon "French people will suffer if you take hardline on Brexit". Some of these Brexit fantascists are going to destroy the UK.

http://talkradio.co.uk/news/iain-duncan-smith-warns-emmanuel-macron-french-people-will-suffer-if-you-take-hardline-brexit

oscarBravo

djpbarry wrote: »

Denmark was a bit of a random choice.

It makes superficial sense, if you look at it from a Brexiteer's perspective without bothering to understand how other nationalities think.

Denmark, like the UK, has a number of opt-outs from the EU treaties. It's tempting for someone like Farage to lazily conclude that this means that Danes are as skeptical as Brits about the EU, but they're not.

Danes are (in my experience) pragmatic people. The fact that they have opt-outs from the EU treaties doesn't mean that they want to leave the EU; it means that they have assurances that the aspects of the EU they're not comfortable with don't apply to them, which logically means that they're fine with the rest.

Of course, this is a sweeping generalisation. Some Danes want out of the EU; some Danes want to join the Euro. But, on balance, most Danes are perfectly content to be in the EU.

Professor Moriarty

oscarBravo wrote: »

It makes superficial sense, if you look at it from a Brexiteer's perspective without bothering to understand how other nationalities think.

Denmark, like the UK, has a number of opt-outs from the EU treaties. It's tempting for someone like Farage to lazily conclude that this means that Danes are as skeptical as Brits about the EU, but they're not.

Danes are (in my experience) pragmatic people. The fact that they have opt-outs from the EU treaties doesn't mean that they want to leave the EU; it means that they have assurances that the aspects of the EU they're not comfortable with don't apply to them, which logically means that they're fine with the rest.

Of course, this is a sweeping generalisation. Some Danes want out of the EU; some Danes want to join the Euro. But, on balance, most Danes are perfectly content to be in the EU.

Support for the EU in Denmark rose 10% in a week - from 59% just before the referendum to 69% immediately after the Brexit result. Dunno what that says about Danish attitudes towards Britain...

wes

steddyeddy wrote: »

Ian Duncan Smith warns Marcon "French people will suffer if you take hardline on Brexit". Some of these Brexit fantascists are going to destroy the UK.

http://talkradio.co.uk/news/iain-duncan-smith-warns-emmanuel-macron-french-people-will-suffer-if-you-take-hardline-brexit

One of the place that Le Pen did better than Macron was Calais. This kind of talk from the UK, will only give Macron incentive to take a hard line. The current arrangement the Brits enjoyed in Calais will be history.

Fratton Fred

Fred_Johnson wrote: »

Yes, but don't forget that the feeling of splendid isolation or being different from the continent probably has its roots in the Reformation.

no, it has its roots in Britain being an Island. Ireland is no dofferent in this regard.

steddyeddy wrote: »

Ian Duncan Smith warns Marcon "French people will suffer if you take hardline on Brexit". Some of these Brexit fantascists are going to destroy the UK.

http://talkradio.co.uk/news/iain-duncan-smith-warns-emmanuel-macron-french-people-will-suffer-if-you-take-hardline-brexit

ironic.

you thank posts claiming there is a sectarian element to Brexit and that there is deep rooted sectarianism in the English DNA, then quote a leading Brexiteer who is also a catholic

ancapailldorcha

Fratton Fred wrote: »

no, it has its roots in Britain being an Island. Ireland is no dofferent in this regard.

I disagree. There is no Irish version of UKIP spouting populist nonsense about how much better things will be if we leave the EU.

steddyeddy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

no, it has its roots in Britain being an Island. Ireland is no dofferent in this regard.



ironic.

you thank posts claiming there is a sectarian element to Brexit and that there is deep rooted sectarianism in the English DNA, then quote a leading Brexiteer who is also a catholic

I don't think there is a sectarian element to Brexit in most of the UK. I very much think there is a sectarian element to the unionist Brexit vote. I couldn't care less what someone's religion is.

catbear

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-economy-retail-idUKKBN1842GQ?il=0

Separately on Tuesday, the Recruitment and Employment Confederation (REC) said employers saw the sharpest fall in the availability of workers to fill their vacancies in 16 months.

Recruitment companies reported a drop in the number of European Union nationals available to work in sectors such as food manufacturing and healthcare, REC said.

This will go down well with those who wanted to reduce immigration but shortages in critical sectors like healthcare will bite.

steddyeddy

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I disagree. There is no Irish version of UKIP spouting populist nonsense about how much better things will be if we leave the EU.

In fairness it looks like UKIP has no future here either. That's partially because the Tories are doing their job for them i.e Amber Rudd's foreign workers lists and the cabinets hard Brexit approach.

Fratton Fred

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I disagree. There is no Irish version of UKIP spouting populist nonsense about how much better things will be if we leave the EU.

No, Ireland has done visibly very well out of the eu, so Ireland is still very much a pro eu country. However, you are just as likely to hear some one in Ireland refer to "Europe" or the "Continent" (meaning mainland europe of course), as you are in the UK.

steddyeddy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No, Ireland has done visibly very well out of the eu, so Ireland is still very much a pro eu country. However, you are just as likely to hear some one in Ireland refer to "Europe" or the "Continent" (meaning mainland europe of course), as you are in the UK.

The UK has done incredibly well out of the EU and the single market. I highly doubt its economy would be anywhere near developed was it not for the single market.

catbear

steddyeddy wrote: »

I don't think there is a sectarian element to Brexit in most of the UK. I very much think there is a sectarian element to the unionist Brexit vote. I couldn't care less what someone's religion is.

Certainly in england it just doesn't appear to be a thing. The memory of such things isn't too strong.

I overheard a discussion about it where one person asked "what are we?" to which her friend responded "we're church of england, I think that's protestant"

In England the whole distinction between religious factions has faded

About seven years ago we had a Roman Catholic who wanted to join the Lodge. I met with him, and he might have been a good member, but obviously he couldn?t be a member, and he said to me ?I don?t understand why I can?t join. Yes, I was born a Roman Catholic but I?m not a practising Catholic, but apart from that one thing, everything that you believe, everything that you stand for, I stand for, and I just feel I?d be amongst like-minded brethren.? Unfortunately, we couldn?t admit him ? although we do admit Roman Catholic converts: once a few years have elapsed and we are satisfied that the conversion is genuine, then yes, we?ll admit them.

https://sluggerotoole.com/2015/07/23/people-are-not-clubbable-any-more-a-south-yorkshire-orangeman-speaks/

When I watched Trainspotting2 in an English cinema I laughing my ass off at the 1690 scene but looking around I could see that no one else understood what it was about.

Nowadays you're more likely to superheros at funerals!

Figures released by Co-op Funeralcare indicate that 66% of adults believe funerals are becoming more of a celebration of life and a third say they would prefer their own to be a party rather than a mournful wake.

At other recent funerals the directors have sported Spider-Man outfits and a She-Ra Princess of Power costume, in order not to look ludicrously out of place at events themed according to the interests of the deceased, right down to balloons tied to the coffin handles.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/may/08/beyond-grave-funerals-turning-into-celebrations-co-op

To them the Ulster Unionist bonfires and marches are rather alien.

ancapailldorcha

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No, Ireland has done visibly very well out of the eu, so Ireland is still very much a pro eu country. However, you are just as likely to hear some one in Ireland refer to "Europe" or the "Continent" (meaning mainland europe of course), as you are in the UK.

I disagree. The UK has done very visibly well out of the EU as well, getting preferential treatment in many regards.

steddyeddy

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I disagree. The UK has done very visibly well out of the EU as well, getting preferential treatment in many regards.

Well the real acid test is when they leave the EU. Then we'll see how beneficial the EU was for the UK.

Some poorer parts like Northern Ireland and Cornwall have done extremely well from EU grants.

Fratton Fred

steddyeddy wrote: »

The UK has done incredibly well out of the EU and the single market. I highly doubt its economy would be anywhere near developed was it not for the single market.

it has, but the signs are not as visible. You may see a small notice outside an eu funded community scheme, but you aren't going to see massive signs next to a motorway advising that it was 50% funded by the eu.

Fratton Fred

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I disagree. The UK has done very visibly well out of the EU as well, getting preferential treatment in many regards.

visibly only to those that look. how many motorways and bridges has the eu funded in England?

ancapailldorcha

Fratton Fred wrote: »

visibly only to those that look. how many motorways and bridges has the eu funded in England?

Takes very, very little looking in fairness. You can't compare an industrial nation like the UK to a mainly rural nation like Ireland. Having said that, the UK has benefited in different ways. Look at Universities, the banking sector, startups, technology firms, etc...

From the BBC:

Zubeneschamali

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well the real acid test is when they leave the EU. Then we'll see how beneficial the EU was for the UK.

Suppose in 10 years they end up 10% of GDP below where they would have been within the EU, they will just say that is all just theoretical, and x,y or z might have happened inside the EU, and that no-one will ever know.

Meanwhile look at our brilliant new program to have unemployed Northerners drown while cockling, replacing all those immigrants!