Brexit Referendum Superthread

oscarBravo

Bit cynical wrote: »

I think they recognize that Ireland and the UK are broadly on the same side in these negotiations...

On what planet? Ireland is in the EU. The UK is negotiating to leave the EU. That puts us on opposite sides of the negotiation.

First Up

Bit cynical wrote:

Although the UK probably can revoke article 50, it is good for Ireland (and the UK) that this will not be determined in the ECJ during negotiations. Well done the Irish State for having this thrown out. Bad luck anti-Brexiters.

The case was discontinued by the plaintiffs on various technical (and practical) grounds. It was not "thrown out" by the Irish State - nor by the courts.

Bit cynical

First Up wrote: »

The case was discontinued by the plaintiffs on various technical (and practical) grounds. It was not "thrown out" by the Irish State - nor by the courts.

Strictly speaking yes. However it was the State's opposition that put an end to it.

Bit cynical

oscarBravo wrote: »

On what planet? Ireland is in the EU. The UK is negotiating to leave the EU. That puts us on opposite sides of the negotiation.

Remember, however, that Ireland has particular interests within the EU that don't necessarily correspond with the EU as a whole.

Ted_YNWA

Bit cynical wrote: »

Strictly speaking yes. However it was the State's opposition that put an end to it.

Every case has an opposition of some form, if the plaintiffs want to drop the case, there was no point forcing it to proceed.

oscarBravo

Bit cynical wrote: »

Remember, however, that Ireland has particular interests within the EU that don't necessarily correspond with the EU as a whole.

Every member state has particular interests within the EU that don't necessarily align with the Union as a whole. That doesn't mean that any of them are on the UK's side in the Brexit negotiations.

Sam Russell

oscarBravo wrote: »

Every member state has particular interests within the EU that don't necessarily align with the Union as a whole. That doesn't mean that any of them are on the UK's side in the Brexit negotiations.

The real question we should be asking - is the EU on our side?

We have particular problems with Brexit that are particular to ourselves. How many are going to be tackled by the EU, whatever the outcome of the Bexit negotiations?

1: The NI border.

2. The loss of direct access to the rest of the EU.

3. The effect of the UK redefining fishing rights. (Rockall anyone?)

4. The effect of our agriculture.

5. The drop in the value of the GBP.

I am sure we have more issues but these might sink us unless we get help.

listermint

Sam Russell wrote: »

The real question we should be asking - is the EU on our side?

We have particular problems with Brexit that are particular to ourselves. How many are going to be tackled by the EU, whatever the outcome of the Bexit negotiations?

1: The NI border.

2. The loss of direct access to the rest of the EU.

3. The effect of the UK redefining fishing rights. (Rockall anyone?)

4. The effect of our agriculture.

5. The drop in the value of the GBP.

I am sure we have more issues but these might sink us unless we get help.

It's not in the EUs interest to have Ireland in a downward spiral. Not in their interest at all.

Water John

I thought May's attack on Corbyn, in relation to Brexit negotiations, was crass, petty and personal.

Wonder if any man said, seeing herself naked would be a sight for sore eyes.
She must have been learning from Donald, as he held her hand.

oscarBravo

Sam Russell wrote: »

The real question we should be asking - is the EU on our side?

The question itself betrays the usual bizarre portrayal of the EU as an entity separate from, and with aims at odds with, its member states.

We have particular problems with Brexit that are particular to ourselves. How many are going to be tackled by the EU, whatever the outcome of the Bexit negotiations?

All of them, insofar as it's practicable to do so.

Nobody's arguing that we're going to be better off as a result of Brexit, but it's something we're frankly going to have to deal with, including steering the EU negotiations as best we can. But, at the end of the day, the UK voted for Brexit, and the UK are making a pig's ear of it. The EU will do what it can to negotiate a sane outcome for all its member states, but negotiating a sane outcome isn't going to be easy when the other party is negotiating with a gun to its own head.

Bit cynical

Ted_YNWA wrote: »

Every case has an opposition of some form, if the plaintiffs want to drop the case, there was no point forcing it to proceed.

No, if the Irish State felt that it was in its interest to have the case referred to the European Court of Justice they had the option of not opposing the case in the Irish court. Then the plaintiffs would have won and the case would then be heard by the ECJ. The plaintiffs, however did not have the funds to argue a case opposed by the State with its much greater resources and so they were forced to withdraw. It wasn't a freely made decision by the plaintiffs.

Leonard Hofstadter

I have to say, as someone who is most certainly not a natural Labour voter, I am stunned by Corbyn's performances against Paxo and the audience debates. He's actually come across an awful lot better than before. I actually sort of like him now, I've very much softened my stance on him. He's ditched a lot of the nonsensical policies, like the nuclear deterrant. An awful lot of what he says, like wanting to work with Europe as oppose to trying to antagonise Europe like Mrs May wants to do, might very well lend himself to being able to get a better deal for the UK, plus he's not going to want to do half the daft things the hard right in the Tories want to do. Obviously a softer Brexit is very much in Ireland's interests.

For that reason I'm beginning to think he might be a good thing for the UK as PM (and by extension, Ireland). On the other hand, we'll never hear the end of 'Brexit it would have been a success only for Corbyn agreeing to keep random and totally unimportant EU policy x' and it could make the likes of UKIP etc popular once more if they go for what will inevitably be a much softer Brexit if Corbyn is in power. Then you could have a scenario where in 4-5 years time we'll have the Tories and the hard right wanting to campaign for a 'proper' (as they would see it) Brexit which would ultimately make the UK even poorer in the long run. I don't know what to do now, I was definitely voting Lib Dems, now I'm wondering if I should vote Labour as it's clear from Mrs May's u-turns that she will be walked all over by the EU and she's definitely not 'strong and stable' as was portrayed and Labour is starting to appear like a more credible alternative than previously. Of course if they had someone decent, like David Miliband, we probably wouldn't even be having this conversation as Labour would have campaigned much more strongly to stay in the EU and the Brits probably would have voted to stay but even if they had voted to leave they would have ensured a much softer Brexit and they certainly would be winning this General Election.

LuckyLloyd

He's doing great, rising to the occasion as it were. And to be honest, considering the way he faced down severe opposition from his own party to retain the leadership it shouldn't be all that surprising that he's now performing well in the crunch. The accusations of incompetence have all been media narratives that were swallowed as fact. He was subjected to a media trashing the likes of which I've never seen before in all the time I've followed politics. And he stuck it out and he's giving it a good aul twist now.

On the other side, May is wilting under pressure and running scared. Her performance during the campaign lends ever more credence to the leaked descriptions of her meeting with Juncker.

UsedToWait

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

He's doing great, rising to the occasion as it were. And to be honest, considering the way he faced down severe opposition from his own party to retain the leadership it shouldn't be all that surprising that he's now performing well in the crunch. The accusations of incompetence have all been media narratives that were swallowed as fact. He was subjected to a media trashing the likes of which I've never seen before in all the time I've followed politics. And he stuck it out and he's giving it a good aul twist now.

On the other side, May is wilting under pressure and running scared. Her performance during the campaign lends ever more credence to the leaked descriptions of her meeting with Juncker.

In fairness, he was doing well till he dropped the ball on Radio 4 yesterday with his bumbling response to the query over the cost of Child Benefit proposals..

Sam Russell

UsedToWait wrote: »

In fairness, he was doing well till he dropped the ball on Radio 4 yesterday with his bumbling response to the query over the cost of Child Benefit proposals..

I think he was tired and with good reason. Paxman thrusting the 'little red book' in his face and barracking him constantly in an almost violent way would cause anyone to want to go into a dark room for a few days.

I think May has more to worry about at the moment - U turn or no U turn. What did Margaret Thatcher say - 'Uturn if you want, but The Lady is not for turning'.

TM is no MT.

Fratton Fred

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think he was tired and with good reason. Paxman thrusting the 'little red book' in his face and barracking him constantly in an almost violent way would cause anyone to want to go into a dark room for a few days.

I think May has more to worry about at the moment - U turn or no U turn. What did Margaret Thatcher say - 'Uturn if you want, but The Lady is not for turning'.

TM is no MT.

why do people compare Theresa May to Margaret Thatcher, but never compared David Cameron to John Major?

Sam Russell

Fratton Fred wrote: »

why do people compare Theresa May to Margaret Thatcher, but never compared David Cameron to John Major?

I would have thought that was obvious. Even people in her own party do the comparison, even one harking back to the Falklands/Malvinos war with Argentina.

Most do not think the comparison is favourable in any way though.

Fratton Fred

Sam Russell wrote: »

I would have thought that was obvious. Even people in her own party do the comparison, even one harking back to the Falklands/Malvinos war with Argentina.

Most do not think the comparison is favourable in any way though.

they are two different people. The comparison seems to be purely based on the fact they both have breasts.

demfad

Fratton Fred wrote: »

why do people compare Theresa May to Margaret Thatcher, but never compared David Cameron to John Major?

Because the Daily Mail has been pushing that image of May as Thatcher 2.0.

She's a none too bright indecisive vicars daughter but a good vessel for the RW to get their hard Brexit through.

First Up

Fratton Fred wrote: »

they are two different people. The comparison seems to be purely based on the fact they both have breasts.

But they are very different in other ways - e.g. one had balls and the other doesn't.

Jaggo

First Up wrote: »

But they are very different in other ways - e.g. one had balls and the other doesn't.

Brilliant.

I think the comparison to Maggie is probably a bit self inflicted too. She has certainly used it to her advantage previously - remember all that stuff about Europe finding her a 'Bloody difficult woman' and the comparison to Maggie in the rebate discussions. It was all bigged up by the tory party machine and the press.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Less of the one-liners please.

LuckyLloyd

J Mysterio wrote: »

Jeremy Corbyn. :pac: What an unbelievable gimp. No confidence of 172-40 Labour and he still trying to hang on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j23_EbYgr4Q

After watching this it's clear why he hung in there. He's got a substance about him that shines through here - his answer to the question from the small business owner 15mins in is particularly strong.

I genuinely believe Britain would come out better from Brexit with him at the helm, as I think it would make the process far less adversarial than May and the current cabinet have tried to make it thus far.

Nody

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I genuinely believe Britain would come out better from Brexit with him at the helm, as I think it would make the process far less adversarial than May and the current cabinet have tried to make it thus far.

To be fair though short of UKIP being put in charge you can't really make it more adversarial than what it is today and UKIP would likely end up with the same result as Tories will get with May at the table. She can try to pretend she's Thatcher 2.0 all she wants but in the end she has none of the backbone (how many u-turns to date?) or charisma that Thatcher had to make her the Iron Lady; all she got are sound bites she can spout off as one liners.

FrancieBrady

Nody wrote: »

To be fair though short of UKIP being put in charge you can't really make it more adversarial than what it is today and UKIP would likely end up with the same result as Tories will get with May at the table. She can try to pretend she's Thatcher 2.0 all she wants but in the end she has none of the backbone (how many u-turns to date?) or charisma that Thatcher had to make her the Iron Lady; all she got are sound bites she can spout off as one liners.

Thatcher only got 'charisma' when she sent a fleet into the south Atlantic. Her star was in decline up to that.

These monikers don't really reflect what actually happened. Media and PR spin.

demfad

This will be of interest on the Donald Trump thread also but Nigel Farage has been revealed as a person of interest in the FBI's Trump/Russia investigation.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/01/nigel-farage-is-person-of-interest-in-fbi-investigation-into-trump-and-russia

“One of the things the intelligence investigators have been looking at is points of contact and persons involved,” one source said. “If you triangulate Russia, WikiLeaks, Assange and Trump associates the person who comes up with the most hits is Nigel Farage.

“He’s right in the middle of these relationships. He turns up over and over again. There’s a lot of attention being paid to him.”

Farage obviously has a strong connection to Brexit.
But the axis of Cambridge Analytica/Breitbart/Wikileaks/Russian fake news and botnet were active in both US election and Brexit also and in the French election most likely.
The common actors are Farage, Flynn, Bannon, Mercers, Assange and others.


Remember the leave campaigns are under investigation already relating to the non-disclosed use of Cambridge Analytica.
It looks like all 5 campaigns paid a Cambridge several million by backpayment via sister company AggregateIQ.
Any undeclared use of foreign companies over £7,500 is illegal in the UK and it is also illegal for campaigns to coordinate (which they did by ALL donating to unknown company aggregateIQ).
As we have seen in the US this type of story will only grow and grow. With a long time till the negotiations are over this story could be potentially significant especially if (when) negotiations go badly.

(Role of CA etc in Brexit also in this article https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy)

ambro25

Whilst domestic politics have gotten feverish in the UK, soon to quiet down as the whole Brexit fanfare gets bootstrapped afresh when negotiations begin next week, Brexit after-shocks carry on unabated, away from the news and the rethoric: 96% less European nurses registered with the Nursery & Midwifery Council since last June.

In other news, Hunt is still Health Secretary. Make of that what you will.

CrabRevolution

It's OK, the UK don't need EU nurses, they will get the nurses they need from their new friends in the Commonwealth. Places like India, Pakistan and Nigeria which the British public love receiving immigrants from.

Professor Moriarty

ambro25 wrote: »

Whilst domestic politics have gotten feverish in the UK, soon to quiet down as the whole Brexit fanfare gets bootstrapped afresh when negotiations begin next week, Brexit after-shocks carry on unabated, away from the news and the rethoric: 96% less European nurses registered with the Nursery & Midwifery Council since last June.

In other news, Hunt is still Health Secretary. Make of that what you will.

Well, you would think that they would be anxious to get stuck in. But, no. David Davies saying that the talks will probably be delayed again.

NIMAN

I have a belief all this May/election/hung parliament/DUP/another election in the autumn stuff is one big conspiracy to get the UK out of going ahead with Brexit.

Those pulling the strings know its bad for Britain and are muddying the waters until it so happens they can work out a way to stay in.

You heard it here first folks !!