Brexit Referendum Superthread

First Up

Fratton Fred wrote:

so the EU will try and block the UK joining the WTO if it doesn't like the terms of the divorce? How will that go down with the WTO?

The 27 member states (who are the EU) will negotiate and decide collectively how they want to trade with the UK.

Nobody in Europe will try to stop the UK becoming a WTO member but if the UK is reduced to trading with the EU under WTO terms it will mean they have failed utterly and face a bleak economic future.

Zubeneschamali

Fratton Fred wrote: »

what were you expecting, TM to go down there and hand out twenty pound notes or something?

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/grenfell-tower-fire-june-2017-support-for-people-affected

Yes, the Government are directing people to Westway Sports Centre.

Which is where the Red Cross, other charities and lots of volunteers will help them.

Fratton Fred

First Up wrote: »

The 27 member states (who are the EU) will negotiate and decide collectively how they want to trade with the UK.

Nobody in Europe will try to stop the UK becoming a WTO member but if the UK is reduced to trading with the EU under WTO terms it will mean they have failed utterly and face a bleak economic future.

it means they have all failed. No one wants to end up resorting to WTO terms. This is the "No Deal" that TM talks of.

But, it is a fall back position. If the eu's demands are ridiculous, then that will have to be the government's last resort.

Fratton Fred

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yes, the Government are directing people to Westway Sports Centre.

Which is where the Red Cross, other charities and lots of volunteers will help them.

and the NHS, social services, local housing teams......

Do you think the government has a few hundred people milling around doing nothing just waiting for something like this to happen? Charities do though, they call them volunteers. At times like this, government, councils and charities work together.

The government will fund it and charities like the red cross will deliver it.

First Up

Fratton Fred wrote:

it means they have all failed. No one wants to end up resorting to WTO terms. This is the "No Deal" that TM talks of.

At 7% of its exports, such a failure would be regrettable for the EU.

At 44% of its exports, it would be catastrophic for the UK.

Fratton Fred wrote:

But, it is a fall back position. If the eu's demands are ridiculous, then that will have to be the government's last resort.

Yes, point a gun to their own head and threaten to shoot

Professor Moriarty

Fratton Fred wrote: »

so the EU will try and block the UK joining the WTO if it doesn't like the terms of the divorce? How will that go down with the WTO?

This appears to be just your wishful thinking rather than actual reality.



The initial response came through charity groups, because they have feet on the ground and can mobilise quickly.

It wasn't good optics at all, but the queen is likely to be met by a less angry crowd than Theresa MAy, is she not. I doubt if it were her decisions anyway, security would not be entirely under her control



the UK isn't Ireland. Councils are run by the councils, not the local MP or the government. If they have broken the rules, then they will be punished, but what is it exactly you expect the Prime Minister to do about it?

It's just something to criticise her for, without actually thinking it through.



make an example of? you mean be punitive? Then the UK would be perfectly entitled to tell them to **** off. Pragmatically of course.




Judging by recent major events in the eu, I would say that he who pays the piper, calls the tune. So the result will be whatever the German, French, Italian and Danish governments want. It will be more about a satisfactory divorce settlement, a satisfactory resolution for EU citizens in other countries and a good future working relationship with the eu's largest trade partner.

I know there are a lot on here who just want to see the British punished, but the Germans are a lot more pragmatic than that. They really really don't want the UK to leave and certainly don't want to sour a future relationship. Do you think they really care about the smaller states, other than some sort of guilt hungover from previous generations?




and how do you see that? or is it just wild speculation based on what you would like to happen?



In what way has the government been incompetent?

Good point. This is the most competent government ever. Bigly.

Zubeneschamali

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The government will fund it and charities like the red cross will deliver it.

Charities have already raised more than the £5m the government have pledged.

Fratton Fred

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Good point. This is the most competent government ever. Bigly.

they have made mistakes, during what is the most difficult political time for the UK in thirty years. That doesn't make them incompetent.

Peregrinus

Fratton Fred wrote: »

it means they have all failed. No one wants to end up resorting to WTO terms. This is the "No Deal" that TM talks of.

But, it is a fall back position. If the eu's demands are ridiculous, then that will have to be the government's last resort.

Or, it will have to be the UK government's last resort if its own demands turn out to be ridiculous.

The fact is that, if talks fail to produce a deal, we won't know who (if anybody) took the "ridiculous" position until we see on what issue, over what point, the talks collapsed.

Starting off with the assumption that, if the talks collapse, it can only be because of the EU's ridiculous demands, far from suggesting confidence in the UK's negotiating position, in fact give the precisely opposite impression. UK brexiteers assuming that, if the talks collapse, it must be the EU's fault gives the impression that they expect the talks to collapse and are already positioning themselves to avoid blame for what they now see as the likely outcome of the course on which they have so rashly embarked.

Fratton Fred

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Charities have already raised more than the £5m the government have pledged.

so people should stop giving money to charity, is that what you're saying?

People need to be re housed, they need counselling, they need support in finding out what went wrong. They need much much more than just money.

Fratton Fred

Peregrinus wrote: »

Or, it will have to be the UK government's last resort if its own demands turn out to be ridiculous.

The fact is that, if talks fail to produce a deal, we won't know who (if anybody) took the "ridiculous" position until we see on what issue, over what point, the talks collapsed.

Starting off with the assumption that, if the talks collapse, it can only be because of the EU's ridiculous demands, far from suggesting confidence in the UK's negotiating position, in fact give the precisely opposite impression. UK brexiteers assuming that, if the talks collapse, it must be the EU's fault gives the impression that they expect the talks to collapse and are already positioning themselves to avoid blame for what they now see as the likely outcome of the course on which they have so rashly embarked.

it will, but the UK government isn't the one that is supposedly looking to "Punish" the EU, is it.

Sam Russell

Fratton Fred wrote: »

they have made mistakes, during what is the most difficult political time for the UK in thirty years. That doesn't make them incompetent.

Surely making mistakes at the most difficult time is the very definition of incompetence. In the heat of battle, it is not the time to go left when you meant to go right.

First Up

Fratton Fred wrote:

it will, but the UK government isn't the one that is supposedly looking to "Punish" the EU, is it.

"Supposedly". Says who?

Fratton Fred

Sam Russell wrote: »

Surely making mistakes at the most difficult time is the very definition of incompetence. In the heat of battle, it is not the time to go left when you meant to go right.

how very true

if you have no information telling you which way to go, can you be blamed for making the wrong decision?

First Up

Fratton Fred wrote:

if you have no information telling you which way to go, can you be blamed for making the wrong decision?

What was that comment by Michael Gove about having enough of "experts"?

Sam Russell

Fratton Fred wrote: »

how very true

if you have no information telling you which way to go, can you be blamed for making the wrong decision?

If you re-read what I have posted, I clearly stated that it is not the time to go in the opposite direction to the one intended. The decision was made, but the actual direction taken was the opposite intended. That is incompetence.

That is the hall mark f the current Tory government under TM.

Fratton Fred

First Up wrote: »

"Supposedly". Says who?

well Memnoch for starters.....

Memnoch wrote: »

Whatever they say about wanting brexit to succeed, deep down does the EU want to punish the UK and make an example so that anyone else will think twice, seeing the chaos that follows?

Memnoch wrote: »

Perhaps the WTO is what the EU want. A little bit of pain for them but it will cripple the UK for a decade and no one else will try the same gambit again. And meanwhile they can push on with federalisation.

Memnoch wrote: »

Yup they can't seem too obvious about it, but they probably intend to and will humiliate May's government after all the tough talk that got thrown around.

Memnoch wrote: »

In these terms, is it worthwhile for the EU to let the UK be an 'example' of the consequences of leaving the union?

Professor Moriarty

Fratton Fred wrote: »

how very true

if you have no information telling you which way to go, can you be blamed for making the wrong decision?

If you lie consistently to the people then you are to blame. If you make decisions without informing yourself fully then you are to blame. When you acquiesce to the loony tunes elements of your party then you are to blame. When you ditch your principles to further your political career then you are to blame. When you miscalculate the mood of the nation then you are to blame.

When you are in government, you are responsible for every decision made by government.

Fratton Fred

First Up wrote: »

What was that comment by Michael Gove about having enough of "experts"?

every one's an expert. Just look at this forum....

Sam Russell wrote: »

If you re-read what I have posted, I clearly stated that it is not the time to go in the opposite direction to the one intended. The decision was made, but the actual direction taken was the opposite intended. That is incompetence.

That is the hall mark f the current Tory government under TM.

and if you look at what I said......

no one has exited the eu before, this is uncharted territory. That said, I think she did the right thing getting rid of her two advisers, they seem to have been giving her terrible advice on how to conduct things.

Chips Lovell

We've a separate thread on the Grenfell Tower fire, so please discuss that there. This is the Brexit thread.

On a broader note, can we have less heat and more light please? There's a lot of tit-for-tat bickering going on that's generating a fair amount of reported posts and annoying a lot of the forum users who're more interested in discussing Brexit than having a row.

Fratton Fred

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If you lie consistently to the people then you are to blame.

who has done this?

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If you make decisions without informing yourself fully then you are to blame.

who has done this?

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

When you acquiesce to the loony tunes elements of your party then you are to blame.

who has done this?

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

When you ditch your principles to further your political career then you are to blame.

who has done this?

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

When you miscalculate the mood of the nation then you are to blame.

a crime committed by pretty much every politician in the UK at the moment.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

When you are in government, you are responsible for every decision made by government.

yes, you are. The decision to leave the eu wasn't the government's though, was it.

Sam Russell

Fratton Fred wrote: »

every one's an expert. Just look at this forum....



and if you look at what I said......

no one has exited the eu before, this is uncharted territory. That said, I think she did the right thing getting rid of her two advisers, they seem to have been giving her terrible advice on how to conduct things.

Listening to bad advice is also incompetent.

Hmmmm ... 'You want me to put Gove back into cabinet? OK, then Mr Murdock, will do.'

Fratton Fred

Sam Russell wrote: »

Listening to bad advice is also incompetent.

Hmmmm ... 'You want me to put Gove back into cabinet? OK, then Mr Murdock, will do.'

so you have some evidence that Rupert Murdoch wanted Gove in the cabinet?

Professor Moriarty

Fratton Fred wrote: »

who has done this?



who has done this?



who has done this?



who has done this?



a crime committed by pretty much every politician in the UK at the moment.



yes, you are. The decision to leave the eu wasn't the government's though, was it.

The answer to all of the questions above is May, Davies, Johnson and their Little Englander cronies.

Regarding your last point, May, Davies, Johnson and their Little Englander cronies lied to the electorate prior to the referendum so they are to blame.

Fratton Fred

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

The answer to all of the questions above is May, Davies, Johnson and their Little Englander cronies.

Regarding your last point, May, Davies, Johnson and their Little Englander cronies lied to the electorate prior to the referendum so they are to blame.

can you provide some evidence to support your claims please?

First Up

Fratton Fred wrote:

well Memnoch for starters.....

Anyone else?

First Up

Fratton Fred wrote:

every one's an expert. Just look at this forum....

Ah stop wriggling Fred.

Chips Lovell

Right, my last warning seems to have fallen on deaf ears and this thread is more of a pitched battle than a debate.

I'm going to lock this thread for a short while to give everyone an opportunity to go re-read the forum charter.

In particular, take note of the following:

This forum is for discussion and debate and we will not tolerate soapboxing. If you are here to "shout everyone down" with your opinions, we will see you as a negative contributor to the forum and will take appropriate action.

High standards of debate and quality posts / threads are required. Repeated one liner, low quality style posts will result in a ban.

When offering an opinion, please state so. Every poster is entitled to their opinion - whether it is ill-informed or not. Please do not present an opinion as "fact" - it only leads to flaming and a poster/moderator may demand further evidence. When offering fact, please offer relevant linkage, or at least source. If you do not do this upon posting, then please be willing to do so on request.

Keep your language civil, particularly when referring to other posters and people in the public eye. Using unsavoury language does not add to your argument.

Thank you

Chips Lovell

Reopening now. Anyone who doesn't heed the mod warning above will risk a sanction. If you're just interested in trying to bludgeon your opponents into submission with a high volume of one-liner posts, this isn't the place for you.

In short, if your post doesn't contain at least one paragraph, think very carefully before hitting "Submit Reply".

Professor Moriarty

Fratton Fred wrote: »

can you provide some evidence to support your claims please?

No problem:

Prior to the referendum, May lied about remain being so important to Britain.

May was not fully informed of the EU's constant position prior to yesterday's meeting. Either that, or she was lying when she claimed there would be parallel talks.

May acquiesced to the eurosceptic section of her party by appointing Steve Baker.

May ditched her principles by becoming an enthusiastic Brexiteer.

May grossly miscalculated the mood of the nation by calling an election.

The government of which May was a part decided to have a referendum on Europe.