Brexit Referendum Superthread

Thomas__

As I have observed since the Brexit Ref nearly one year ago, the UK citizens living in EU countries got that anxious over the uncertainty due to the way the UK govt dealt with the issue of residence permissions for EU nationals living in the UK and vice versa put the EU as well in a Position where it wasn´t clear how to respond to that problem, the numbers for nationalisation have increased heavily in those EU countries with UK citizens as permanent residents.

This article gives a summary of the many and the various countries, not just France, Germany but  Ireland is also affected even if not mentioned in the article itself because is saw the passport applications rising in the first days and weeks in the aftermath of the Brexit Ref.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/20/british-requests-french-citizenship-more-than-triple-year

I anticipate that along with the Brexit negotiations which have just formally started and will certainly become difficult in the following weeks and months, there will be more of such reports.

Fratton Fred

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

No problem:

Prior to the referendum, May lied about remain being so important to Britain.

May was not fully informed of the EU's constant position prior to yesterday's meeting. Either that, or she was lying when she claimed there would be parallel talks.

May acquiesced to the eurosceptic section of her party by appointing Steve Baker.

May ditched her principles by becoming an enthusiastic Brexiteer.

May grossly miscalculated the mood of the nation by calling an election.

The government of which May was a part decided to have a referendum on Europe.

all of which is obviously your opinion only, because you haven't been able to demonstrate any actual lies, have you?

Fratton Fred

I've considered this as i could apply for irish citizenship but I am holding off for the time being ( or rather, i am in no rush to).

The British Government said clearly in their white paper:

Securing rights for EU nationals in the UK, and UK nationals in the EU – We want to secure the status of EU citizens who are already living in the UK, and that of UK nationals in other Member States, as early as we can.

and the eu has said this:

8. The right for every EU citizen, and of his or her family members, to live, to work or to study in any EU Member State is a fundamental aspect of the European Union. Along with other rights provided under EU law, it has shaped the lives and choices of millions of people. Agreeing reciprocal guarantees to safeguard the status and rights derived from EU law at the date of withdrawal of EU and UK citizens, and their families, affected by the United Kingdom's withdrawal from the Union will be the first priority for the negotiations. Such guarantees must be effective, enforceable, non-discriminatory and comprehensive, including the right to acquire permanent residence after a continuous period of five years of legal residence. Citizens should be able to exercise their rights through smooth and simple administrative procedures.

so I am not overly worried by the whole thing. Having an eu passport may be an advantage in years to come, but i will wait and see the outcome of this before jumping in.

Professor Moriarty

Fratton Fred wrote: »

all of which is obviously your opinion only, because you haven't been able to demonstrate any actual lies, have you?

These are direct quotes from May just weeks before the referendum:

“I think the economic arguments are clear, I think being part of a 500-million population trading bloc is significant for us. I think, as I was saying to you a little earlier, that one of the issues is that a lot of people will invest here in the UK because it is the UK in Europe."

and

“If we were not in Europe, I think there would be firms and companies who would be looking to say, do they need to develop a mainland Europe presence rather than a UK presence? So I think there are definite benefits for us in economic terms."

And from April 2016:

"So, if we do vote to leave the European Union, we risk bringing the development of the single market to a halt, we risk a loss of investors and businesses to remaining EU member states driven by discriminatory EU policies, and we risk going backwards when it comes to international trade."

and

"The reality is that we do not know on what terms we would win access to the single market. We do know that in a negotiation we would need to make concessions in order to access it, and those concessions could well be about accepting EU regulations, over which we would have no say, making financial contributions, just as we do now, accepting free movement rules, just as we do now, or quite possibly all three combined.
"It is not clear why other EU member states would give Britain a better deal than they themselves enjoy."

and

"And while we could certainly negotiate our own trade agreements, there would be no guarantee that they would be on terms as good as those we enjoy now. There would also be a considerable opportunity cost given the need to replace the existing agreements - not least with the EU itself - that we would have torn up as a consequence of our departure."

and

"It is not realistic to think we could just replace European trade with these new markets."


Despite these beliefs, May is now an enthusiastic Brexiteer. That is why she is an unprincipled, untruthful, weak leader who caved into the eurosceptics.

Zubeneschamali

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Despite these beliefs, May is now an enthusiastic Brexiteer.

Really? Since the referendum, she has appeared to me to be an entirely robotic Brexiteer, listing off a few slogans she learned.

Professor Moriarty

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Really? Since the referendum, she has appeared to me to be an entirely robotic Brexiteer, listing off a few slogans she learned.

Her appointment of Baker means (a) she is an enthusiastic Hard Brexiteer or (b) she has become a puppet of the eurosceptics. My own belief is (b) but her rhetoric points to (a).

Fratton Fred

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

These are direct quotes from May just weeks before the referendum:

“I think the economic arguments are clear, I think being part of a 500-million population trading bloc is significant for us. I think, as I was saying to you a little earlier, that one of the issues is that a lot of people will invest here in the UK because it is the UK in Europe."

and

“If we were not in Europe, I think there would be firms and companies who would be looking to say, do they need to develop a mainland Europe presence rather than a UK presence? So I think there are definite benefits for us in economic terms."

And from April 2016:

"So, if we do vote to leave the European Union, we risk bringing the development of the single market to a halt, we risk a loss of investors and businesses to remaining EU member states driven by discriminatory EU policies, and we risk going backwards when it comes to international trade."

and

"The reality is that we do not know on what terms we would win access to the single market. We do know that in a negotiation we would need to make concessions in order to access it, and those concessions could well be about accepting EU regulations, over which we would have no say, making financial contributions, just as we do now, accepting free movement rules, just as we do now, or quite possibly all three combined.
"It is not clear why other EU member states would give Britain a better deal than they themselves enjoy."

and

"And while we could certainly negotiate our own trade agreements, there would be no guarantee that they would be on terms as good as those we enjoy now. There would also be a considerable opportunity cost given the need to replace the existing agreements - not least with the EU itself - that we would have torn up as a consequence of our departure."

and

"It is not realistic to think we could just replace European trade with these new markets."


Despite these beliefs, May is now an enthusiastic Brexiteer. That is why she is an unprincipled, untruthful, weak leader who caved into the eurosceptics.

Those seem to be perfectly reasonable statements, not lies. Unless you think they are somehow deliberately erroneous.

She is PM now though and the country voted to exit the eu (whatever that means). She is taking on the wishes of the state and trying to ensure that she a) interprets what people are looking for and b) getting the best deal she can fit the UK.

oppenheimer1

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Those seem to be perfectly reasonable statements, not lies. Unless you think they are somehow deliberately erroneous.

She is PM now though and the country voted to exit the eu (whatever that means). She is taking on the wishes of the state and trying to ensure that she a) interprets what people are looking for and b) getting the best deal she can fit the UK.

Two small problems there:

The UK is very much divided on what it wants in particular, the conservatives. They are unlikely to be able to get any deal through the commons without opposition support.

In the short to medium term, there is only negative consequences from Brexit because the best deal, no matter how good will always be inferior to EU membership. People often get caught up in economic euphemisms, like there will be pain or negative growth or terms like that. Its never spelled out - there will be job losses and a lowering of living standards for a few years at a minimum. Now the comfortably off posh tories might be able to live with that but jingoism or "patriotism" won't house or clothe the working poor. Ultimately it means that poorer people will die younger than they should.

Professor Moriarty

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Those seem to be perfectly reasonable statements, not lies. Unless you think they are somehow deliberately erroneous.

She is PM now though and the country voted to exit the eu (whatever that means). She is taking on the wishes of the state and trying to ensure that she a) interprets what people are looking for and b) getting the best deal she can fit the UK.

Ok. You have no interest in engaging with the substance of my argument having asked for specifics. I'll leave you at it.

Fratton Fred

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Two small problems there:

The UK is very much divided on what it wants in particular, the conservatives. They are unlikely to be able to get any deal through the commons without opposition support.

In the short to medium term, there is only negative consequences from Brexit because the best deal, no matter how good will always be inferior to EU membership. People often get caught up in economic euphemisms, like there will be pain or negative growth or terms like that. Its never spelled out - there will be job losses and a lowering of living standards for a few years at a minimum. Now the comfortably off posh tories might be able to live with that but jingoism or "patriotism" won't house or clothe the working poor. Ultimately it means that poorer people will die younger than they should.

that's the thin line the government has to tread though, isn't it.

Brexit wasn't/isn't the exclusive domain of the "Posh Tories", despite how it is being painted on here and to think so is pure head in the sand stuff. Some very un-Tory areas voted quite convincingly to leave the eu and some very Tory areas, such as Theresa May's own constituency in Maidenhead, voted to remain.

The government needs to come up with something, that appeases the remain camp, but also carries out the wishes of those who voted to leave (which are numerous and varied).

Fratton Fred

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Ok. You have no interest in engaging with the substance of my argument having asked for specifics. I'll leave you at it.

so what point are you making? you stated that they lied before the referendum, but are not able to demonstrate any actual lies told.

I am trying to engage with you, if you offer something that is concrete to actually engage with.

Professor Moriarty

Fratton Fred wrote: »

so what point are you making? you stated that they lied before the referendum, but are not able to demonstrate any actual lies told.

I am trying to engage with you, if you offer something that is concrete to actually engage with.

Apologies. I thought my points were self-evident. Here are two quotes by May:

April 2016: Remaining inside the European Union does make us more secure, it does make us more prosperous and it does make us more influential beyond our shores.

May 2017: The promise of Brexit is great – the opportunities before us enormous.


Which of these statements is true and which is a piece of untruthful, uninformed misinformation from an unprincipled leader?

oppenheimer1

Fratton Fred wrote: »

that's the thin line the government has to tread though, isn't it.

Brexit wasn't/isn't the exclusive domain of the "Posh Tories", despite how it is being painted on here and to think so is pure head in the sand stuff. Some very un-Tory areas voted quite convincingly to leave the eu and some very Tory areas, such as Theresa May's own constituency in Maidenhead, voted to remain.

The government needs to come up with something, that appeases the remain camp, but also carries out the wishes of those who voted to leave (which are numerous and varied).

I agree, but I think you missed my point. The vocal Tories pushing for an exit from the single market and customs union are the ones that will be wealthy enough to successfully ride out the turbulence that follows i.e. the job losses and lower living standards.

The hard part is protecting the poor from their own decision (those that have voted for this) and the minority that didn't vote for it from becoming much worse off.

Fratton Fred

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Apologies. I thought my points were self-evident. Here are two quotes by May:

April 2016: Remaining inside the European Union does make us more secure, it does make us more prosperous and it does make us more influential beyond our shores.

May 2017: The promise of Brexit is great – the opportunities before us enormous.


Which of these statements is true and which is a piece of untruthful, uninformed misinformation from an unprincipled leader?

the first is true, the second is a simple cry of "Once more in to the breach, dear friends".

Fratton Fred

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I agree, but I think you missed my point. The vocal Tories pushing for an exit from the single market and customs union are the ones that will be wealthy enough to successfully ride out the turbulence that follows i.e. the job losses and lower living standards.

The hard part is protecting the poor from their own decision (those that have voted for this) and the minority that didn't vote for it from becoming much worse off.

I did miss your point.

Philip Hammond (again) talked of the need to protect jobs and living standards in his speech earlier today. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40339331

Professor Moriarty

Fratton Fred wrote: »

the first is true, the second is a simple cry of "Once more in to the breach, dear friends".

Well, no.

If this, as you say, is true:

Remaining inside the European Union does make us more secure, it does make us more prosperous and it does make us more influential beyond our shores.

Then the "promise of Brexit" cannot be "great". The "opportunities before Britain" cannot be "enormous".

If the first quote is true, by definition, the second is a duplicitous lie.

Fratton Fred

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Well, no.

If this, as you say, is true:

Remaining inside the European Union does make us more secure, it does make us more prosperous and it does make us more influential beyond our shores.

Then the "promise of Brexit" cannot be "great". The "opportunities before Britain" cannot be "enormous".

If the first quote is true, by definition, the second is a duplicitous lie.

what do you expect her to say "You stupid bastards voted for Brexit so now we're all ****ed"?.

If the Bray Wanderers captain shouts "Come on, we can win this" just as they kicked off against Real Madrid, would that be a duplicitous lie?

Professor Moriarty

Fratton Fred wrote: »

what do you expect her to say "You stupid bastards voted for Brexit so now we're all ****ed"?.

If the Bray Wanderers captain shouts "Come on, we can win this" just as they kicked off against Real Madrid, would that be a duplicitous lie?

My expectations of Theresa May are very low. Comparing a soccer team captain exhorting his teammates to win a match is not the same as a British PM deceiving the British public. It's a facile comparison.

Theresa May stated:

The promise of Brexit is great – the opportunities before us enormous.

That is a lie. Theresa May knows it is a lie. That's why she is an unprincipled and untruthful leader.

oppenheimer1

Fratton Fred wrote: »

what do you expect her to say "You stupid bastards voted for Brexit so now we're all ****ed"?.

If the Bray Wanderers captain shouts "Come on, we can win this" just as they kicked off against Real Madrid, would that be a duplicitous lie?

No, but he would have no credibility. Sounds familiar....?

Water John

Fred, 350M written on the side of a bus, was a lie.

Fratton Fred

Water John wrote: »

Fred, 350M written on the side of a bus, was a lie.

it was deliberately misleading, not a blatent lie.

Fratton Fred

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

No, but he would have no credibility. Sounds familiar....?

whereas a captain that said "Forget it lads, we're fooked" would?

Water John

Fred, it's a lie, a porky, plain and simple.

murphaph

Fratton Fred wrote: »

what do you expect her to say "You stupid bastards voted for Brexit so now we're all ****ed"?

Actually that's exactly what is called for.

Fratton Fred

Water John wrote: »

Fred, it's a lie, a porky, plain and simple.

Writing £350m on the side of a bus is a lie?

tell me, what exactly did it say that was a lie?

Professor Moriarty

Fratton Fred wrote: »

it was deliberately misleading, not a blatent lie.

What distinguishes 'deliberately misleading' from a 'blatant lie'?

wes

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Writing £350m on the side of a bus is a lie?

tell me, what exactly did it say that was a lie?

So the NHS will receive 350 millions pounds extra a week after Brexit? The holy referendum must be honored after all.......

Mezcita

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Writing £350m on the side of a bus is a lie?

tell me, what exactly did it say that was a lie?

Quick thing. Of your 26,000 posts how many times have you answered a question with a question?

Please answer with a question.

Obviously.

Water John

Prof, it's the usual whataboutery.

Fratton Fred

wes wrote: »

So the NHS will receive 350 millions pounds extra a week after Brexit? The holy referendum must be honored after all.......

They didn't say that though. That's where they were tricky.

The Bus stated that the UK send the EU £350m per week...Lets fund the NHS instead.

The UK does send the EU £350m per week, but the eu sends a chunk of it back, so that is a gross figure. It isn't a lie though.

Lets fund the NHS instead. Admirable sentiment. It doesn't say how much.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

What distinguishes 'deliberately misleading' from a 'blatant lie'?

politicians don't lie do they, they are usually too clever for that.

Mezcita wrote: »

Quick thing. Of your 26,000 posts how many times have you answered a question with a question?

Please answer with a question.

Obviously.

Water John wrote: »

Prof, it's the usual whataboutery.

if either of you have a problem with my posts, report them.

If you make unsubstantiated claims with nothing to back them up like "They lie" or "She back stabbed her way to PM", then being asked to support that statement is fairly straight forward.