Brexit Referendum Superthread

Enzokk

123shooter wrote: »

No your twisted my words to suit your argument.

I never ever said terrorism was from EU countries.

So tell me how EU open borders make you and your family feel unsafe. You were the one that mentioned terrorism in your post, not me. I was asking you on what EU policies you don't agree with.

123shooter wrote: »

Open Borders.

Unchecked immigration.

I would take this imposed against ME and my family & friends because of the danger of undesirables and terrorism.

Please enlighten me as well as who is undesirable.

123shooter

Enzokk wrote: »

So tell me how EU open borders make you and your family feel unsafe. You were the one that mentioned terrorism in your post, not me. I was asking you on what EU policies you don't agree with.



Please enlighten me as well as who is undesirable as well.

For the last time cause its really boring.

If potential/suspected terrorists can move about between countries because they are unchecked or stopped from entering a country by that country then it is wrong. Doesn't matter where they originally came from could be Mars.

And same goes for known or convicted dangerous criminals.

You can't really blame these people because if they see a chink in the legalities then they will take advantage of it.

It's similar to welfare fraudsters they do it because they simply can. It's the law that is wrong.

Trouble is no matter how many crimes or terrorist acts there are those in power in the EU will not change their policy no matter how much a government or it's people are victims, worried or want change.

Now I am off to work again.

Enzokk

123shooter wrote: »

For the last time cause its really boring.

If potential/suspected terrorists can move about between countries because they are unchecked or stopped from entering a country by that country then it is wrong. Doesn't matter where they originally came from could be Mars.

And same goes for known or convicted dangerous criminals.

You can't really blame these people because if they see a chink in the legalities then they will take advantage of it.

It's similar to welfare fraudsters they do it because they simply can. It's the law that is wrong.

Trouble is no matter how many crimes or terrorist acts there are those in power in the EU will not change their policy no matter how much a government or it's people are victims, worried or want change.

Now I am off to work again.

So the fear of potential terrorists moving between the EU and the UK is your problem. I am not sure if you read my post or you just don't understand it. The majority of terrorists are not from other countries in the EU. They are usually from the host country or in the UK events from countries where the UK controls the immigration. This is the same for France and for Belgium and for the UK. It is a discontent with their own country that makes people act and cause these terrible acts. I don't see how closing the borders to the EU will make you feel safer.

But I have the feeling that in most people who cite immigration as a problem the solution is to first get rid of the foreigners, next step those that are British but not my ethnicity/religion.

I do hope you will have time to show those other policies other than immigration that have been imposed on you by the EU that makes you want to leave the EU.

murphaph

123shooter wrote: »

Quite simple.

They are the ones who rule over us with their policies.

We are the people who get ruled over. Some may call us the electorate except in in this case we cannot elect anybody except the same ones who are already there in power imposing their ideology over all of us whether it is right or wrong.

Whether it causes hardship or not. It is their will. It is simply a dictatorship no different than Stalin or Sadam Hussain except they haven't started killing dissenters.....yet. But destroying things they do not agree with yes.

Reading this drivel makes it easier to understand how Brexit passed.

Would you swap your existing life for one in a Gulag? I mean it's the same thing, right?

123shooter

Enzokk wrote: »

So the fear of potential terrorists moving between the EU and the UK is your problem. I am not sure if you read my post or you just don't understand it. The majority of terrorists are not from other countries in the EU. They are usually from the host country or in the UK events from countries where the UK controls the immigration. This is the same for France and for Belgium and for the UK. It is a discontent with their own country that makes people act and cause these terrible acts. I don't see how closing the borders to the EU will make you feel safer.

But I have the feeling that in most people who cite immigration as a problem the solution is to first get rid of the foreigners, next step those that are British but not my ethnicity/religion.

I do hope you will have time to show those other policies other than immigration that have been imposed on you by the EU that makes you want to leave the EU.

See you have done it again.....'get rid of foreigners'..........I never said that. You are so intent on making anyone who doesn't agree with your garble some kind of racist and it simply will not work.

I don't have a problem with immigration and never said same. I said open borders and unchecked immigration which are totally different to your twist.

As regards other stuff here are a few.

European courts having power over each individual courts where laws have been evolved for the situations of those countries over time to suit those countries and now the EU says no our laws are supreme.

Robbing countries of there fishing rights and other natural assets to be put in one pot and shared alike...........but always ends up in same countries.

Tax laws which will devastate Irelands economy by taking away the low rate for companies which make employment.

I cant be bothered with anymore.

123shooter

murphaph wrote: »

Reading this drivel makes it easier to understand how Brexit passed.

Would you swap your existing life for one in a Gulag? I mean it's the same thing, right?

Grow up and nothing like the example given.

murphaph

123shooter wrote: »

Grow up and nothing like the example given.

Huge lolz at "grow up".

The example came directly from you when you said the EU was a dictatorship just like under Uncle Joe, but apparently it isn't (obviously) as you would not swap your EU life for one in Russian Gulag. Go figure.

You've also come out with other patent nonsense about border control. The only border the UK does not control is its one with Ireland and guess what, post-Brexit it still won't as the UK is wanting to maintain the CTA. It's laughable. The UK already gets to check who is coming in from the rest of the EU. Not much will change here at all...but something about taking back control, grumble grumble.

123shooter

murphaph wrote: »

Huge lolz at "grow up".

The example came directly from you when you said the EU was a dictatorship just like under Uncle Joe, but apparently it isn't (obviously) as you would not swap your EU life for one in Russian Gulag. Go figure.

You've also come out with other patent nonsense about border control. The only border the UK does not control is its one with Ireland and guess what, post-Brexit it still won't as the UK is wanting to maintain the CTA. It's laughable. The UK already gets to check who is coming in from the rest of the EU. Not much will change here at all...but something about taking back control, grumble grumble.

The example was of a dictatorship nothing more but I suppose you can tell us all about how democratic the EU is with examples yes?

Taking back control of their own destiny is what I said I never mention anything about taking control of borders...........another leftie trying to put words into mouths and distort what people are saying to suit?

I believe every country and it's peoples should be in control of their own destiny. What is wrong with that?

Enzokk

123shooter wrote: »

See you have done it again.....'get rid of foreigners'..........I never said that. You are so intent on making anyone who doesn't agree with your garble some kind of racist and it simply will not work.

I don't have a problem with immigration and never said same. I said open borders and unchecked immigration which are totally different to your twist.

You need to explain to me because you are the one that sees immigration as an issue. We should only look at immigration from the EU as this is the immigration that Brexit can influence. I am only responding to your posts and looking for clarification on your views.

So what is the problem with immigrants from the EU then? Those are the ones that use the open borders. You mentioned safety, why do you feel unsafe from those immigrants?

ancapailldorcha

Post deleted. 123shooter, no more rudeness and digs at other posters please.

BlitzKrieg

123shooter wrote: »

Oh right. If so when the next election comes around for me to vote against what I do not agree with being imposed on us and also the other parties policies which I may agree with to give them a chance to improve our lives. Then you get in touch and let me know because I appear to have missed all those chances so far.

for the European commission president and parliament its 2019 at the next european elections.

for the European council and council of European union you only vote on the representative for your country and thats at the next general election.

so in the case of the UK (for now) it has just passed) and the next irish one is within the next 6 years

BlitzKrieg

Sam Russell wrote: »

The EU has been based on the Council of Ministers as the executive decision maker and every member of that council is the representative of their democratically elected government. The Commission is made of people appointed by their government but they could be elected but no government has chosen to do that. The EU Parliament is directly elected has has gown in power and now can affect policy.

slight correction

European council is the executive decision maker.

Council of Ministers (or council of European Union) is the government counterpart to the the European Parliament and is made up of the government ministers of each member state related to each law being processed.

So for a law involving transportation all it's members are transport ministers from each member state etc.

The Commission is not elected correct, but only the main body. The Commission President is elected in a 2 step process. First the Candidate wins a nomination to be commission president by his or her party winning the largest number of seats in the European parliament elections and is then put to a second vote by the European Council and is elected if he or she wins a majority in both steps.

You are correct in how Commission members themselves are chosen.

murphaph

123shooter wrote: »

The example was of a dictatorship nothing more but I suppose you can tell us all about how democratic the EU is with examples yes?

Taking back control of their own destiny is what I said I never mention anything about taking control of borders...........another leftie trying to put words into mouths and distort what people are saying to suit?

I believe every country and it's peoples should be in control of their own destiny. What is wrong with that?

I'm actually centre right on most topics and liberal on social issues. Certainly not a "leftie", despite your attempts at pigeon holing people who disagree with you.

I believe you are quite simply living in the past. We (Europeans) are far more alike than we are different and we face challenges that were unheard of 50 years ago. We need to work together. I don't say this flippantly...until perhaps a couple of years ago I might have agreed with you in some respects, but the world is changing and Europeans need to stick together or our adversaries/friendly foes will pick us apart as none of us are really big enough on our own, including the UK and Germany.

The EU is at least as democratic as many national governments. You don't elect your Prime Minister directly either. You don't elect your head of state at all in the case of a monarchy.

123shooter

murphaph wrote: »

I'm actually centre right on most topics and liberal on social issues. Certainly not a "leftie", despite your attempts at pigeon holing people who disagree with you.

I believe you are quite simply living in the past. We (Europeans) are far more alike than we are different and we face challenges that were unheard of 50 years ago. We need to work together. I don't say this flippantly...until perhaps a couple of years ago I might have agreed with you in some respects, but the world is changing and Europeans need to stick together or our adversaries/friendly foes will pick us apart as none of us are really big enough on our own, including the UK and Germany.

The EU is at least as democratic as many national governments. You don't elect your Prime Minister directly either. You don't elect your head of state at all in the case of a monarchy.

I am certainly not trying to pigeon hole any one. But it is really annoying to be called a racist and to have said things I haven't. Which is actually a tactic of the left which is why I refer to lefties in that manner. (Apart from receiving a warning from the mods).

As regards living in the past........that is almost an insult as I am known for looking too far into the future !

You do not have to give up your rights to remove people who are supposed to be there to govern you. Those people are supposed to be Public Servants and we are not supposed to be slaves to anyone.

That I believe is what the 2 world wars were about as before then we were all slaves to the hierarchy which is one reason why Irish fought to be independent from same where now you think it's ok to replace one with another.

Those who govern the EU are setting themselves up as same. If they weren't and democratic then they would install a system where the people can easily get rid if we do not agree. Strangely they haven't and will not. That alone may tell you something?

First Up

123shooter wrote:

I believe every country and it's peoples should be in control of their own destiny. What is wrong with that?

They are.

123shooter

First Up wrote: »

They are.

Really ok heres something.

Ireland tomorrow decides that only Irish fishermen can fish in Irish waters.

Only Irish produce can be on supermarket shelves except for what is not produced here and only import only shortfalls in Irish produce

The low corporate tax system will remain and be expanded.

Try those for starters and see how far you get.

BlitzKrieg

123shooter wrote: »

That I believe is what the 2 world wars were about as before then we were all slaves to the hierarchy.

Both World Wars? I'm going to regret this but how does the First World War fit into this notion?

Those who govern the EU are setting themselves up as same. If they weren't and democratic then they would install a system where the people can easily get rid if we do not agree. Strangely they haven't and will not. That alone may tell you something?

Considering that half of the EU's institutions are directly made up of ministers from member states then the process to get rid of them is the same process as it would be to get rid of them on a national level. Accusing it of being hard on an EU level but ignoring that it is equally as difficult on a national level is a bit misguided.

As for the other half, as already stated numerous times the European Parliament is elected and the Commission President is also elected on a 5 year basis (the commission as a whole can be changed every 5 years too). The only position not elected are the European Commissioner and seeing as they are chosen by each member state by their own process (which the EU has no control over) again the issue lies on a national level and the very institutions you are holding up.

Sam Russell

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

slight correction

European council is the executive decision maker.

Council of Ministers (or council of European Union) is the government counterpart to the the European Parliament and is made up of the government ministers of each member state related to each law being processed.

So for a law involving transportation all it's members are transport ministers from each member state etc.

The Commission is not elected correct, but only the main body. The Commission President is elected in a 2 step process. First the Candidate wins a nomination to be commission president by his or her party winning the largest number of seats in the European parliament elections and is then put to a second vote by the European Council and is elected if he or she wins a majority in both steps.

You are correct in how Commission members themselves are chosen.

Thanks for the correction. Of course the EU is constantly evolving, and much change was introduced by the Lisbon Treaty, and the EU has introduced more democracy as time has passed since 1957. It hopefully will continue to get more democratic as it can never have too much.

123shooter

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

Both World Wars? I'm going to regret this but how does the First World War fit into this notion?

Well I thought a lot of the hundreds of thousands of Irish who fought with Britain did so because they believed they would soon get home rule or be independent?

whatstherush

123shooter wrote: »

Really ok heres something.

Ireland tomorrow decides that only Irish fishermen can fish in Irish waters.

Only Irish produce can be on supermarket shelves except for what is not produced here and only import only shortfalls in Irish produce

The low corporate tax system will remain and be expanded.

Try those for starters and see how far you get.

That's what you want, stop confusing it with the Irish people. Look at the protectionist ****e you are trying to sell, we should only allow certain imports but we should be allowed lower corporate tax rates so they can do what exactly, ramp production for a market of 4.5million people or do you think other countries will sit idly by while we alone implement your protectionist horse ****e

Sam Russell

123shooter wrote: »

Really ok heres something.

Ireland tomorrow decides that only Irish fishermen can fish in Irish waters.

Only Irish produce can be on supermarket shelves except for what is not produced here and only import only shortfalls in Irish produce

The low corporate tax system will remain and be expanded.

Try those for starters and see how far you get.

Why would Ireland want to choose any of those things? Just to annoy our fellow EU member states?

We agreed the fishing rights issue on 1972. We agreed the single market with Maasterict, so any EU product is equal to an Irish product (with a few exceptions).

The 12.5% is here to stay, unless we get a better offer.

So, no, we will not annoy any of our fellow EU governments.

demfad

Sam Russell wrote: »

Thanks for the correction. Of course the EU is constantly evolving, and much change was introduced by the Lisbon Treaty, and the EU has introduced more democracy as time has passed since 1957. It hopefully will continue to get more democratic as it can never have too much.

Democracy should evolve in proportion to integration.
The EU has electorate democracy (parliament) to represent the peoples voice and democracies of the individual States (Councils etc.) to represent teh States' voices.
Brexiters misrepresent this: they bemoan a lack of democracy by citing the councils and lack of sovereignty while ignoring that the councils are representatives of the sovereign countries.

First Up

123shooter wrote:

Try those for starters and see how far you get.

Let's see someone get elected to government on such a manifesto first.

Maybe you should try it - and see how far you get.

Water John

Glad UK citizens will have the choice to pick their new Head of State (King or Queen) once Liz leaves. It's called democracy.

BlitzKrieg

123shooter wrote: »

Well I thought a lot of the hundreds of thousands of Irish who fought with Britain did so because they believed they would soon get home rule or be independent?

Those pushing for home rule had already achieved getting it through parliament prior to World War One. The British used the war as an excuse to shelve it because Northern Irish unionists had outright threatened civil war if they tried to impose it.

Those who volunteered to fight for the British with home rule in mind did so to carry favour so that after the war the british government would side with them over the unionists (who were also volunteering to gain the same favour). The war itself had no meaning to either movement beyond being yet another obstacle.

as for those wanting independence they blatantly used the circumstances of the war to attempt a rising, they didnt take part in the war itself. Unless you are suggesting we should consider the 1916 rising as an actual part of the western front?

World War One was a mess, there were no ideals that led nations into that war and any ideals that came from it, came from those bitterly opposed to it or taking advantage of those opposed to it (see: Russian Revolution) It was a war without meaning.

Ireland tomorrow decides that only Irish fishermen can fish in Irish waters.

We could, but then we'd lose the funding and support from the EU to actually enforce any such restrictions (EU has funded most of the current Irish Navy and other EU nations help to police each others waters). People bemoaning other EU nations in Irish waters tend to forget that prior to joining the EU irish waters had large number of non irish ships fishing anyway because Ireland was incapable of policing its own waters. (I'd use seaaroundus.org to illustrate this but it's not working right now)

Only Irish produce can be on supermarket shelves except for what is not produced here and only import only shortfalls in Irish produce

I'm pretty sure if Ireland tried this even as a non-EU member it would still find itself in very hot water with the World Trade Organisation.

123shooter

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why would Ireland want to choose any of those things? Just to annoy our fellow EU member states?

We agreed the fishing rights issue on 1972. We agreed the single market with Maasterict, so any EU product is equal to an Irish product (with a few exceptions).

As I said before what people agreed to then is different what those in charge want now.

The 12.5% is here to stay, unless we get a better offer.

Really I thought taxation harmony across the board was on the cards and Ireland was always saying please no you can't do that.

So, no, we will not annoy any of our fellow EU governments.

You will simply do as your told......by them.

Jim2007

123shooter wrote: »

Really ok heres something.

Ireland tomorrow decides that only Irish fishermen can fish in Irish waters.

Only Irish produce can be on supermarket shelves except for what is not produced here and only import only shortfalls in Irish produce

The low corporate tax system will remain and be expanded.

Try those for starters and see how far you get.

But we've already decided on those matters... Unlike other EU member states we actually voted on those issues and we consigned isolationism to the past! And there is no support for revisiting it.

That fact that the Irish people have decided a destiny that you don't like is your problem because we will continue to follow this path until the majority decide otherwise.

Another thing, I'm old enough to have had the honour of knowing several members of the flying columns that operated in the west during the war of independence and these men were not isolationists - they believed that Ireland had both a right and an obligation to take it's place among the nations of the world. And indeed many of them were behind the drive for Ireland to seek EEC membership in the late sixties.

So you are way of the mark in every respect.

123shooter

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

World War One was a mess, there were no ideals that led nations into that war and any ideals that came from it, came from those bitterly opposed to it or taking advantage of those opposed to it (see: Russian Revolution) It was a war without meaning.

And it ended in a mess allowing them to do it all again.

We could, but then we'd lose the funding and support from the EU to actually enforce any such restrictions (EU has funded most of the current Irish Navy and other EU nations help to police each others waters). People bemoaning other EU nations in Irish waters tend to forget that prior to joining the EU irish waters had large number of non irish ships fishing anyway because Ireland was incapable of policing its own waters. (I'd use seaaroundus.org to illustrate this but it's not working right now)

But Ireland is wealthier now and could possibly control it's own waters but I think the Spanish and others may object.

I'm pretty sure if Ireland tried this even as a non-EU member it would still find itself in very hot water with the World Trade Organisation.

But the EU would beat them to it.

123shooter

Jim2007 wrote: »

But we've already decided on those matters... Unlike other EU member states we actually voted on those issues and we consigned isolationism to the past! And there is no support for revisiting it.

That fact that the Irish people have decided a destiny that you don't like is your problem because we will continue to follow this path until the majority decide otherwise.

Another thing, I'm old enough to have had the honour of knowing several members of the flying columns that operated in the west during the war of independence and these men were not isolationists - they believed that Ireland had both a right and an obligation to take it's place among the nations of the world. And indeed many of them were behind the drive for Ireland to seek EEC membership in the late sixties.

So you are way of the mark in every respect.

Actually you are missing my points entirely and I would never assume that all Irish people agree with the EU but it seems you do?

What I like is immaterial and would never want my will or idealism imposed over those who did not want it.

Also the thing here is that another country has decided that they want other.........you lot are bleating away at how wrong they are and they shouldn't do it. So basically you want to impose your will and idealism over other people who don't want it.

Well you bleat away. Apparently because of Gina Miller's own goal it is now enshrined in UK law and cannot be stopped so what happens? Well either the UK is a success in which case others may follow and your beloved little utopia will fall apart around you...........or........the UK fails and then you largest trading partner and purchaser of your goods flounders which will sink your economy.

Your bleating will not make any difference in any way............but I suppose someone like me must be wrong and of course you must be right. We all just have to wait.

First Up

123shooter wrote:

Really I thought taxation harmony across the board was on the cards and Ireland was always saying please no you can't do that.

"On the cards" meaning what?