Brexit Referendum Superthread

Nody

Jim2007 wrote: »

In the case of the NHS in particular, they forget that there is plenty of competition for healthcare workers...

I mean why stay in the UK, if you can land a job at a Swiss hospital and be welcomed with open arms... very low crime, good education system, good salary etc....

And many of the Eastern Europeans will have had German in school as well, so all they need is to have the Red Cross certify their qualifications, which is not very difficult and they are free to seek jobs in Germany/Austria/Switzerland/Luxembourg/Parts of Northern Italy.

Don't worry; May will ensure there are plenty of UK trained doctors and nurses ready to replace them to give the UK people a chance as outlined by the Brexiteers...

Thomas__

Jim2007 wrote: »

Thomas__ wrote: »

Well, no doubt they´re right to pack and go and seek for a better place either back home in their countries of origin or another place within the EU where it´ll be better for them than in post-Brexit Britain.

In the case of the NHS in particular, they forget that there is plenty of competition for healthcare workers...  

I mean why stay in the UK, if you can land a job at a Swiss hospital and be welcomed with open arms... very low crime, good education system, good salary etc....

And many of the Eastern Europeans will have had German in school as well, so all they need is to have the Red Cross certify their qualifications, which is not very difficult and they are free to seek jobs in Germany/Austria/Switzerland/Luxembourg/Parts of Northern Italy.

Not that I know of. I rather presume that they either learned the language by studying it in language courses outside their school curriculum or that they have worked for a while in a German speaking country. English is the first foreign language taught in schools, but not German. That´s why many of them went to the UK, cos they learned the Basics of the language already in their home country. I would be very surprised if you were right in your assumption when I think about Poland, Romania, Hungary or any other Eastern European Country (that apart from the tiny minority of ethnic Germans of which some may still live there). It depends on the age of the person, whether he or she grew up before the fall of the Iron Curtain or afterwards. When they grew up before, they learned Russian (French was also possible, English more suspicious). Afterwards that changed of course.

Switzerland has some more restrictions on even skilled people to take up work there.

Thomas__

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Jim2007 wrote: »

In the case of the NHS in particular, they forget that there is plenty of competition for healthcare workers...  

I mean why stay in the UK, if you can land a job at a Swiss hospital and be welcomed with open arms... very low crime, good education system, good salary etc....

And many of the Eastern Europeans will have had German in school as well, so all they need is to have the Red Cross certify their qualifications, which is not very difficult and they are free to seek jobs in Germany/Austria/Switzerland/Luxembourg/Parts of Northern Italy.

More jobs for Indian health care workers so. Which kind of defeats the point of leaving.

Funny, the die-hard Brexiteers are eager to "send the EU nationals" packing and in return live with the prospect to have them replaced by Indian people. Well, that might be more "acceptable" to them as India is still a member of the Commonwealth of Nations and some old Brexit-Brit might think that he or she can act in the "good old colonial way" to treat them "nicely".

Well, one would had to wait and see how attractive this might be for skilled Indian health care workers.

Nody

Thomas__ wrote: »

Not that I know of. I rather presume that they either learned the language by studying it in language courses outside their school curriculum or that they have worked for a while in a German speaking country. English is the first foreign language taught in schools, but not German. That´s why many of them went to the UK, cos they learned the Basics of the language already in their home country. I would be very surprised if you were right in your assumption when I think about Poland, Romania, Hungary or any other Eastern European Country (that apart from the tiny minority of ethnic Germans of which some may still live there). It depends on the age of the person, whether he or she grew up before the fall of the Iron Curtain or afterwards. When they grew up before, they learned Russian (French was also possible, English more suspicious). Afterwards that changed of course.

Switzerland has some more restrictions on even skilled people to take up work there.

Actually German could also be studied due to DDR at the time; it was also studied at School for a few years after the fall as Germany / Austria were the closest locations to go to get well paid work. However in the last two decades or so it's English as the secondary language and Germany as third usually done outside of school.

murphaph

123shooter wrote: »

So ok lets say you are correct, then we have a huge problem because a bunch of UK newspapers have fooled approx 18 million uk voters (cant remember exact) and millions of others across Europe that the EU is bad for their country. Also these same people are stupid, misguided, pathetic, uneducated etc etc.

Thats going to be a hard one to unravel.

Actually it won't be that hard at all IMO. Brexit will be a spectacular failure for the British economy and will quite possibly take us out as collateral damage (we might get lucky if it's not a hard Brexit). The rest of Europe has NOT been poisoned to the extent that the British public has been by their press. The average Euro-Joe will see the damage done to the British economy and will simply conclude that staying in the EU is a better idea. It could be argued that this has already happened in France, which was hotly tipped by the British Brexit press to be the next to leave. That is not going to happen now.

123shooter wrote: »

But my point again for the god knows how many times.............My point is and always has been that it is up to an individual country and it's people to determine their own destiny not be ruled, governed or interfered with by a bunch of outsiders in whatever form they take.

See above. A50 was added to provide an exit mechanism and the UK can and will leave the EU. But nobody said it would be easy.

Thomas__

Nody wrote: »

Thomas__ wrote: »

Not that I know of. I rather presume that they either learned the language by studying it in language courses outside their school curriculum or that they have worked for a while in a German speaking country. English is the first foreign language taught in schools, but not German. That´s why many of them went to the UK, cos they learned the Basics of the language already in their home country. I would be very surprised if you were right in your assumption when I think about Poland, Romania, Hungary or any other Eastern European Country (that apart from the tiny minority of ethnic Germans of which some may still live there). It depends on the age of the person, whether he or she grew up before the fall of the Iron Curtain or afterwards. When they grew up before, they learned Russian (French was also possible, English more suspicious). Afterwards that changed of course.

Switzerland has some more restrictions on even skilled people to take up work there.

Actually German could also be studied due to DDR at the time; it was also studied at School for a few years after the fall as Germany / Austria were the closest locations to go to get well paid work. However in the last two decades or so it's English as the secondary language and Germany as third usually done outside of school.

I think that you´re completely missing the anti-German Sentiment in not less Eastern European countries under Communist Rule because of WWII. Even this "Socialist Brotherhood" thinking wasn´t good enough to overcome that.

Zubeneschamali

murphaph wrote: »

See above. A50 was added to provide an exit mechanism and the UK can and will leave the EU. But nobody said it would be easy.

Oh, it is very easy - they have triggered A50, and that is really all there is to it. They are out in 1 year and 9 months time.

The EU are open to negotiations, but the Brits don't even have to show up if they don't want to. They are gone.

So it is very easy. What it won't be is painless. It is really, really going to hurt.

Calina

Thomas__ wrote: »

Nody wrote: »

Thomas__ wrote: »

Not that I know of. I rather presume that they either learned the language by studying it in language courses outside their school curriculum or that they have worked for a while in a German speaking country. English is the first foreign language taught in schools, but not German. That´s why many of them went to the UK, cos they learned the Basics of the language already in their home country. I would be very surprised if you were right in your assumption when I think about Poland, Romania, Hungary or any other Eastern European Country (that apart from the tiny minority of ethnic Germans of which some may still live there). It depends on the age of the person, whether he or she grew up before the fall of the Iron Curtain or afterwards. When they grew up before, they learned Russian (French was also possible, English more suspicious). Afterwards that changed of course.

Switzerland has some more restrictions on even skilled people to take up work there.

Actually German could also be studied due to DDR at the time; it was also studied at School for a few years after the fall as Germany / Austria were the closest locations to go to get well paid work. However in the last two decades or so it's English as the secondary language and Germany as third usually done outside of school.

I think that you´re completely missing the anti-German Sentiment in not less Eastern European countries under Communist Rule because of WWII. Even this "Socialist Brotherhood" thinking wasn´t good enough to overcome that.

My experience in the Eastern European countries in the early 1990s was German was far more likely than English.

FrancieBrady

murphaph wrote: »

Actually it won't be that hard at all IMO. Brexit will be a spectacular failure for the British economy and will quite possibly take us out as collateral damage (we might get lucky if it's not a hard Brexit). The rest of Europe has NOT been poisoned to the extent that the British public has been by their press. The average Euro-Joe will see the damage done to the British economy and will simply conclude that staying in the EU is a better idea. It could be argued that this has already happened in France, which was hotly tipped by the British Brexit press to be the next to leave. That is not going to happen now.


See above. A50 was added to provide an exit mechanism and the UK can and will leave the EU. But nobody said it would be easy.

If Brexit hurts us, we have a tremendous ally who understands our special status - The EU.
The UK are on their own unless they can 'persuade' their former colonies/commonwealth to chip in.

First Up

murphaph wrote:

The average Euro-Joe will see the damage done to the British economy and will simply conclude that staying in the EU is a better idea.

The average Euro Joe already knows that the EU is a bloody great idea. He doesn't need to see someone hitting the rocks to know that jumping off a cliff is a bad idea.

The average Euro Joe won't be sorry to see the UK leave. If your exposure to the UK consists mostly of football hooligans and obnoxious drunken tourists berating the locals for not understanding them (even when they shout) you mightn't miss them either.

LeinsterDub

123shooter wrote: »

Really ok heres something.

Ireland tomorrow decides that only Irish fishermen can fish in Irish waters.

Only Irish produce can be on supermarket shelves except for what is not produced here and only import only shortfalls in Irish produce

The low corporate tax system will remain and be expanded.

Try those for starters and see how far you get.

OK here's something for you . You and your mates decided to form a football club and all agree to play a match next week. Upon match day one set of posts has a net the other has none and is H shaped . You've a square/oval pitch . The ball is round while being oval. Each team has 11, no 12 , sorry 15 , nope 18 players .

Professor Moriarty

Just an idle thought. If Britain is determined to go for a hard Brexit then there is little that the rest of the EU can do about it. However, if Britain, in its negotiations for a softer Brexit, continues to be a thorn in the side of the other 27 countries (much as it has been throughout its membership) and promises to be a thorn in the future, then the EU might be minded to grasp the nettle and simply force Britain out and be done with it.

murphaph

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If Brexit hurts us, we have a tremendous ally who understands our special status - The EU.
The UK are on their own unless they can 'persuade' their former colonies/commonwealth to chip in.

The EU can only do so much. We will soon be an island separated from our main markets by a possibly belligerent neighbour (at least in trade terms) and our trucks will sit in the Dover and Calais queues along with the British ones. Expect our southern ports to regain some significance as we try to ship around Britain, rather than through it.

First Up

murphaph wrote:

Expect our southern ports to regain some significance as we try to ship around Britain, rather than through it.

Already well in hand.

FrancieBrady

murphaph wrote: »

The EU can only do so much. We will soon be an island separated from our main markets by a possibly belligerent neighbour (at least in trade terms) and our trucks will sit in the Dover and Calais queues along with the British ones. Expect our southern ports to regain some significance as we try to ship around Britain, rather than through it.

Britain still has to eat, and find product.
It will be in a very tricky situation domestically and will not be able to be 'belligerent'. For instance, if they cut the trade in food with Ireland and the EU they will have massively inflated prices for the UK consumer. 'trouble at mill' as they say.

Memnoch

Thomas__ wrote: »

Funny, the die-hard Brexiteers are eager to "send the EU nationals" packing and in return live with the prospect to have them replaced by Indian people. Well, that might be more "acceptable" to them as India is still a member of the Commonwealth of Nations and some old Brexit-Brit might think that he or she can act in the "good old colonial way" to treat them "nicely".

Well, one would had to wait and see how attractive this might be for skilled Indian health care workers.

As doctors, the wife and I had been considering the UK for family reasons. Also as consultant jobs in my wife's specialty are in short supply in Ireland currently. But with the situation with brexit, and the overall attitude of the government towards 'foreigners' including EU citizens, it has become a very unattractive option.

Add to this, what seems to us, that the conservatives are determined to break the back of the NHS with much better pay and working conditions elsewhere, and it seems like a no brainer.

I think many other EU docs will be thinking along these lines, so they will have to recruit from South East Asia, Africa etc. Of course, the tories may be happy to add further pressure on the NHS through understaffing (already a problem) and under recruitment which will aid in their ultimate goal of privitisation.

As primarily English speakers, Canada, Australia etc seem like much better options.

View

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Britain still has to eat, and find product.

No it doesn't!

Just repeat "Brexit means Brexit" ad nauseam and all problems disappear. :-)

Rjd2

Rjd2 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/youngvulgarian/status/878968737533227009

Nail. On. The. Head.

The Tories have been slaughtered over Brexit and rightfully so as they have been useless, but Corbyn has having his cake and eating it and getting away with **** all scrutiny about his position on Brexit. :mad:

https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/880477525306216448

Well Well Well. :pac:

laugh

Banks relocating here: Guardian

Someone better get the finger out and build some homes.

Memnoch

Rjd2 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/880477525306216448

Well Well Well. :pac:

Corbyn's stance on brexit has been one of brilliant foresight and political instinct while still being principled. (Unlike the tories of course.) Single market = free movement and this is simply not politically acceptable in the UK right now. Perhaps by the time of the next general election it will be. And Corbyn's stance was key in preventing the Tories from cleaning up working class labour seats at the GE

Umunua is behaving in a typically mercenary fashion, simply causing trouble, either because he didn't get put back on the front bench after all of his manouvering and backstabbing, or because of those who fund progress with their millions pulling on his strings.

Capt'n Midnight

murphaph wrote: »

The EU can only do so much. We will soon be an island separated from our main markets by a possibly belligerent neighbour (at least in trade terms) and our trucks will sit in the Dover and Calais queues along with the British ones. Expect our southern ports to regain some significance as we try to ship around Britain, rather than through it.

It just means we go back to TIR signs
Trucks and containers customs sealed for the UK transit.

Capt'n Midnight

Jim2007 wrote: »

In the case of the NHS in particular, they forget that there is plenty of competition for healthcare workers... ly.

The fall in sterling hasn't helped

Nody wrote: »

Don't worry; May will ensure there are plenty of UK trained doctors and nurses ready to replace them to give the UK people a chance as outlined by the Brexiteers...

NHS needs 40,000 nurses and 40,000 other posts.

at the moment one of the big problems is retaining staff never mind recruiting more

Fratton Fred

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

NHS needs 40,000 nurses and 40,000 other posts.

at the moment one of the big problems is retaining staff never mind recruiting more

That's a lot if people, definitely.

You need to factor in, of course, that any business with 1.3 million employees is always going to have a number of vacancies due to natural staff turn over.

First Up

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

It just means we go back to TIR signs Trucks and containers customs sealed for the UK transit.

And go through customs into UK and then again back into EU? Even with sealed trucks that adds time and cost. It also removes the scope for trucks to leave Ireland part loaded and fill up in the UK - or drop off part loads - on the way to the continent.

Memnoch

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That's a lot if people, definitely.

You need to factor in, of course, that any business with 1.3 million employees is always going to have a number of vacancies due to natural staff turn over.

Anecdotally, I can tell you that doctors are not at all happy with working conditions in the UK or with their treatment by Hunt.

We ourselves were considering the UK but now it is not a realistic option for us for our long term future. At the end of the day, we are nothing special. People like us are the proletariat.

Anita Blow

Anecdotally as well, the NHS seems to be far worse than the HSE lately for working conditions. Of my 5 UK friends educated and working in the UK as medics, all are planning a move to the HSE and are fully aware that it's not amazing here either. They've had to endure 100 hour weeks as interns for no extra pay, awful rotas working every bank holiday for 8 months with no extra pay or day in lieu, very unsociable hours (one worked 3 28 hour shifts and 4 8 hour shifts in one week) and absolutely staggeringly one had a senior colleague who was denied leave on the day their parent passed away because there was no cover for them.
This all occurred in a large tertiary hospital.

wes

UK economy still going down the tubes:

UK consumers suffer longest decline in spending power since 1970s


The difference from this time last year, is really stark. Brexit hasn't even happened yet, and the UK economy is already seeing the effects. Its hard to have sympathy, as Brexiters were warned this would happen, but they chose to ignore the sound advice of experts that they despise.

Memnoch

wes wrote: »

UK economy still going down the tubes:

UK consumers suffer longest decline in spending power since 1970s


The difference from this time last year, is really stark. Brexit hasn't even happened yet, and the UK economy is already seeing the effects. Its hard to have sympathy, as Brexiters were warned this would happen, but they chose to ignore the sound advice of experts that they despise.

This is what happens when every side has their own experts. It becomes impossible for ordinary people to discern who to trust. It all comes down to the lack of a free media, IMO.

Water John

I think those wanting a soft Brexit in Parliament, put down a good marker, even if it meant some got thrown off the front bench of the LB party.

It will need a coalition of soft Brexit people right across the MPs to force May's hand.

wes

Memnoch wrote: »

This is what happens when every side has their own experts. It becomes impossible for ordinary people to discern who to trust. It all comes down to the lack of a free media, IMO.

True that is part of the problem, but only one side actively attacked experts, and that is the side that won, and the side that has damaged the UK economy.

Its really astonishing that just this time last year, the UK economy was one of the fastest growing in Europe, and the turn around due to a Brexit that hasn't even happened is stunning.

IMO, Brexit has broken the UK, and its only going to get worse.