Brexit Referendum Superthread

FrancieBrady

Can a soft Brexit reverse this now? I doubt it. Decisions, irreversible ones will be taken by industry and commerce that will be difficult to reverse.

Water John

In time, Nigel Farage's name will have the same resonance for English people as Guy Fawkes.

Enzokk

wes wrote: »

UK economy still going down the tubes:

UK consumers suffer longest decline in spending power since 1970s


The difference from this time last year, is really stark. Brexit hasn't even happened yet, and the UK economy is already seeing the effects. Its hard to have sympathy, as Brexiters were warned this would happen, but they chose to ignore the sound advice of experts that they despise.

Watching Question Time last night is seems that those that want to be rid of the EU is now so hell bent on leaving they want to leave everything, whether it will hurt them or not. So that is no single market and no customs union.

wes

Enzokk wrote: »

Watching Question Time last night is seems that those that want to be rid of the EU is now so hell bent on leaving they want to leave everything, whether it will hurt them or not. So that is no single market and no customs union.

Yeah, all there problems and frustrations are being blamed on the EU and foreigners. The right wing press will still convince them there problems are the EU and foreigners even after they have left. Its astonishing to see a country go down the tubes so fast.

Memnoch

Enzokk wrote: »

Watching Question Time last night is seems that those that want to be rid of the EU is now so hell bent on leaving they want to leave everything, whether it will hurt them or not. So that is no single market and no customs union.

Question time is being stacked with rabid right wingers in the audience ever since Boris Johnson cried foul about the bbc debate audience when May was too scared to show up.

I'd say they represent 20-30% of the electorate but about 50% of the audience. That said Tories did win half the vote, so go figure.

Fratton Fred

Memnoch wrote: »

Question time is being stacked with rabid right wingers in the audience ever since Boris Johnson cried foul about the bbc debate audience when May was too scared to show up.

I'd say they represent 20-30% of the electorate but about 50% of the audience. That said Tories did win half the vote, so go figure.

everyone who wants out of the eu is a rabid right winger?

are you sure?

An Ciarraioch

Memnoch wrote: »

Question time is being stacked with rabid right wingers in the audience ever since Boris Johnson cried foul about the bbc debate audience when May was too scared to show up.

I'd say they represent 20-30% of the electorate but about 50% of the audience. That said Tories did win half the vote, so go figure.

The last one before the GE was surreal, where it seemed they were rabid for Corbyn to launch first strikes on North Korea and Iran, and it took a teenage girl to restore sanity to proceedings.

LeinsterDub

Memnoch wrote: »

It all comes down to the lack of a free media, IMO.

The media has never been more free. The barriers to entry have mainly been removed. No need for a printing press or fancy studio. Information from source and second hand has never been so widely available. The citizen journalist is everywhere.

Memnoch

Fratton Fred wrote: »

everyone who wants out of the eu is a rabid right winger?

are you sure?

Of course, not. That's not what I said. But it seems like they are picking audience members for question time who represent that part of the brexit debate. I.E. Hate the EU and immigration and want the hardest of exits regardless of potential economic damage.

Though I understand why you say this because there is an argument to be made that brexit is brexit is hard brexit and anything else isn't really brexit at all. But it's been debated here before, and I think it's fair to say that that perspective isn't necessarily reflective of the plurality of views of the 52% who voted out at the referendum.

Memnoch

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The media has never been more free. The barriers to entry have mainly been removed. No need for a printing press or fancy studio. Information from source and second hand has never been so widely available. The citizen journalist is everywhere.

Yes, and no.

Social media helps, challenge of traditional media narratives help, otherwise Corbyn would have been crushed by the establishment.

However, the voting pattern is quite indicative. The fact that so many over 65s stuck with the conservatives is not a coincidence, considering that they are most likely to be reliant on the mainstream press such as the BBC, Daily mail, telegraph, times etc for their news.

A poisonous government like the tories should be nowhere NEAR power. That they are, shows the level of influence still held by media barons. The lies about the EU and Brexit were effective during the referendum, another result of media influence.

LeinsterDub

Memnoch wrote: »

Yes, and no.

Social media helps, challenge of traditional media narratives help, otherwise Corbyn would have been crushed by the establishment.

However, the voting pattern is quite indicative. The fact that so many over 65s stuck with the conservatives is not a coincidence, considering that they are most likely to be reliant on the mainstream press such as the BBC, Daily mail, telegraph, times etc for their news.

A poisonous government like the tories should be nowhere NEAR power. That they are, shows the level of influence still held by media barons. The lies about the EU and Brexit were effective during the referendum, another result of media influence.

That fact the UK and the US are so divided is more to do with FPTP than the media. The left /right media divide in both countries is a reaction to a system that forces people into one of two camps.

Memnoch

LeinsterDub wrote: »

That fact the UK and the US are so divided is more to do with FPTP than the media. The left /right media divide in both countries is a reaction to a system that forces people into one of two camps.

I don't think there is a gigantic left right media divide.

To me there is the media establishment, within which there is right and center-right, and this has also been true of the political establishment at large.

Their is SOME division in the media over brexit, and that is largely down to establishment in fighting in who gets to make the most out of the UK

But when there was genuine threat to the establishment order by Corbyn they united to do their best to crush democratic dissent.

The fact that Corbyn was portrayed as a marxist when his policies are mainline Center-left European says something about media bias.

Mezcita

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The media has never been more free. The barriers to entry have mainly been removed. No need for a printing press or fancy studio. Information from source and second hand has never been so widely available. The citizen journalist is everywhere.

That's fine if people go to the effort of seeking out factual sources of truth. But if you are just spoon fed the bile served up by the likes of the Sun and the Daily Mail on a daily basis it's only going to push opinions towards a certain direction. Corbyn being branded as an IRA sympathizer by the Sun before the election would be just one example. The media have a huge amount of influence over here in the UK.

I'm pretty much down with hard Brexit at this stage despite the problems it will bring to the UK and Ireland. Primarily because when the dust settles the media will no longer be able to blame the EU for the UK's problems.

Fratton Fred

Memnoch wrote: »

Of course, not. That's not what I said. But it seems like they are picking audience members for question time who represent that part of the brexit debate. I.E. Hate the EU and immigration and want the hardest of exits regardless of potential economic damage.

Though I understand why you say this because there is an argument to be made that brexit is brexit is hard brexit and anything else isn't really brexit at all. But it's been debated here before, and I think it's fair to say that that perspective isn't necessarily reflective of the plurality of views of the 52% who voted out at the referendum.

that perspective certainly isn't reflective of the views of the 52% who voted out. Even Farage is questioning leaving the single market and predicting a Norway style deal, which is the least like a Brexit option there is.

Take a look at the RMT's reasons for leaving the eu https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-sets-out-six-key-reasons-for-leaving-the-eu/ there isn't much about them that could be described as "Right Wing".

There's also an argument by pure right wingers that eu policies actually stifle free trade and has just taken economic nationalism from a country level to a continental one.

Fratton Fred

Mezcita wrote: »

Corbyn being branded as an IRA sympathizer by the Sun before the election would be just one example.

He was though, as was John McDonnell.

Surely the public have a right to be informed of that?

FrancieBrady

Fratton Fred wrote: »

He was though, as was John McDonnell.

Surely the public have a right to be informed of that?

There is a difference between understanding why the IRA existed and sympathising with them.

The politics of condemnation is as redundant as it always has been.

Roanmore

Mezcita wrote: »

That's fine if people go to the effort of seeking out factual sources of truth. But if you are just spoon fed the bile served up by the likes of the Sun and the Daily Mail on a daily basis it's only going to push opinions towards a certain direction. Corbyn being branded as an IRA sympathizer by the Sun before the election would be just one example. The media have a huge amount of influence over here in the UK.

I'm pretty much down with hard Brexit at this stage despite the problems it will bring to the UK and Ireland. Primarily because when the dust settles the media will no longer be able to blame the EU for the UK's problems.

The Sun and the Daily Mail are mild compared to the Express. I was shocked at their anti EU coverage on an almost daily basis when I was on holidays in Spain.
It was a bigger seller as well that both the Mail and the Sun.

I did read one story in the Mirror about a children's TV presenter (can't remember her name) who voted to leave but now saw what was happening and had changed her mind. She didn't vote leave because of the trade, etc but and this was a direct quote "she was sick of the EU interfering in her life on a daily basis". I'd love to know what interference that was.

BlitzKrieg

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Even Farage is questioning leaving the single market and predicting a Norway style deal, which is the least like a Brexit option there is.

Wait he has?

That is a massive climb down for him, it was one of the issues that drove me up the wall during the referendum campaign that Boris was promising a Norway style deal and Farage was outright saying no to such a deal.

Of course both ignore that a norway style deal will likely require joining EFTA in some form which has the Uk sort of screwed because that requires a unanimous approval of current EFTA members to accept them joining.

Which they might not want or at the very least might start attaching strings to the UK application.

Also how Brexit goes might sour them more. EFTA is by design a much more intense legislation structure then the EU because there legislative process is done on a bi-annual basis while the EU runs on a constant level.

So if the UK shows during the Brexit process to be a stubborn and un-cooperative negotiation partner, it wont look appealing to EFTA members to have to deal with something similar twice a year.

Fratton Fred

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is a difference between understanding why the IRA existed and sympathising with them.

The politics of condemnation is as redundant as it always has been.

There's a huge difference between understanding why they existed and actually honouring them

“It’s about time we started honouring those people involved in the armed struggle. It was the bombs and bullets and sacrifice made by the likes of Bobby Sands that brought Britain to the negotiating table. The peace we have now is due to the action of the IRA. Because of the bravery of the IRA and people like Bobby Sands, we now have a peace process.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/sep/18/john-mcdonnell-apologises-for-ira-comment-labour

FrancieBrady

Fratton Fred wrote: »

There's a huge difference between understanding why they existed and actually honouring them



https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/sep/18/john-mcdonnell-apologises-for-ira-comment-labour

He understood how the peace was achieved.

I have no problem with soldiers being honoured for their part in a war while not for one minute sympathising with any side in that war.

Maybe too complex and nuanced for some to grasp.

steddyeddy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

There's a huge difference between understanding why they existed and actually honouring them



https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/sep/18/john-mcdonnell-apologises-for-ira-comment-labour

Well at least he's not in cahoots with terrorist allies for votes.

FrancieBrady

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well at least he's not in cahoots with terrorist allies for votes.

The blind eye is very handy when one wants to stay in power.

murphaph

FrancieBrady wrote: »

He understood how the peace was achieved.

I have no problem with soldiers being honoured for their part in a war while not for one minute sympathising with any side in that war.

Maybe too complex and nuanced for some to grasp.

Cowards who plant bombs in litter bins on high streets are not soldiers. Real Irish soldiers would be sickened at the thought of being compared to such people.

FrancieBrady

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

Wait he has?

That is a massive climb down for him, it was one of the issues that drove me up the wall during the referendum campaign that Boris was promising a Norway style deal and Farage was outright saying no to such a deal.

Of course both ignore that a norway style deal will likely require joining EFTA in some form which has the Uk sort of screwed because that requires a unanimous approval of current EFTA members to accept them joining.

Which they might not want or at the very least might start attaching strings to the UK application.

Also how Brexit goes might sour them more. EFTA is by design a much more intense legislation structure then the EU because there legislative process is done on a bi-annual basis while the EU runs on a constant level.

So if the UK shows during the Brexit process to be a stubborn and un-cooperative negotiation partner, it wont look appealing to EFTA members to have to deal with something similar twice a year.

I thought Farage was always in favour of staying in the single market

ancapailldorcha

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I thought Farage was always in favour of staying in the single market

Only if it meant being exempt from the four freedoms. The argument was that the UK's trade deficit with the EU would mean that this could be negotiated for.

First Up

Fratton Fred wrote:

Take a look at the RMT's reasons for leaving the eu. there isn't much about them that could be described as "Right Wing".

Absolutely; as big a load of one-eyed cobblers as I've seen in a long time.

I agree that the Brexit vote was a strange mix of right and left, with both wings deluded but over different things.

The irony of course is that in the unlikely event of either of them find that Brexit delivers their expectations, the other one will be completely devastated. How that would play out in UK politics would be almost as entertaining as watching them both coming to grips with their disillusionment

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Please start a new thread if ye wish to discuss the Irish economy regarding Brexit. This one is starting to go off topic.

murphaph

I suppose this has particular implications for us as there are still disputes over who owns what in Lough Foyle and I believe Carlingford Lough. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40471466

Sam Russell

This fisheries announcement brings back into contention Rockall and the waters off NI.

UK are playing hard ball.

Water John

Is this Gove setting his position? A bit stupid. If that's all UK have to throw, they have just emptied their raingun.