Brexit Referendum Superthread

Enzokk

demfad wrote: »

The EU is prioritising Ireland by putting the solution to the border connundrum as a red line before trade talks between EU/UK. In effect the EU is forcing the UK to genuinely address this issue, which they should have done as it massively diversely affects NI which is in the UKs juristiction.

The problem is not the EUs reaction to the policy of putting a hatchet through the all-Ireland economy: It is the UKs ambivalence towards doing this in the first place and finding a solution for it.

I always got the idea that some Brexiteers didn't want to deal with the issue of Ireland and Northern Ireland or didn't have a plan in place and the easiest way to a solution in their eyes is to have Ireland as just another province/county of the UK. That will sort out their problems quickly, no need for the CTA and the GFA is sorted as well. The first step is to convince the people of Ireland that there isn't a future in the EU for them. This document is probably the first of many that will come forth to prove this point.

Fratton Fred

serfboard wrote: »

Oh sorry, it came from a "Think Tank". Excuse me. Then obviously it has the veneer of respectability to it, and we all must take it seriously.

No, quite the opposite actually. This report could come from Club Disney for all its worth. It is a think tank, not a government department.

serfboard wrote: »

It came from a "Think Tank" called Policy Exchange. Policy Exchange is a Tory think tank funded by ... well we don't know actually because they won't say who their funders are. It has been ranked as "as one of the three least transparent think tanks in the UK in relation to funding." The UK campaign for think tank transparency, WhoFundsYou.org, rate Policy Exchange as 'E', the lowest score out of five for funding transparency.

So we don't know who funds policy exchange. But we do know who set it up and has run it over the years - and it's basically a mouthpiece for the Tory party.

so what? it is a think tank. They can commission reports on whatever they like. They aren't the government.

serfboard wrote: »

So the answer to your question:

is - do you ever read anything yourself?

yes thanks, but i don't put two and two together, come up with the answer five and get all outraged about it.

serfboard wrote: »

Having made the diastrous decision to leave the EU, some elements among the Brits are now trying to pull the institution down after them - and have (presumably handsomely) paid silly arse Ray Bassett to write some oul' ridiculous drivel saying that we should leave too.

What's amazing to me is that this load of nonsense is getting covered on RTE, The Irish Times and the Independent. I suppose Copy and Paste "Journalism" never refuses a press release.

they are probably covering because
a) it was written by the former Irish ambassador to Canada who no doubt has a certain amount if sway within the political classes in Ireland and
b) it relates to Ireland.

First Up

Fratton Fred wrote:

they are probably covering because a) it was written by the former Irish ambassador to Canada who no doubt has a certain amount if sway within the political classes in Ireland and b) it relates to Ireland.

No doubt?

Fratton Fred

First Up wrote: »

No doubt?

you don't think an ex ambassador to Canada is well known within the "Right Circles" in this country?

The circles that includes leading politicians, leading journalists and RTE executives?

First Up

Fratton Fred wrote:

you don't think an ex ambassador to Canada is well known within the "Right Circles" in this country?

Being well known and having sway are two different things.

Fratton Fred

First Up wrote: »

Being well known and having sway are two different things.

It seems like he has been banging on about for a few months now

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/former-ambassador-condemns-ireland-s-brexit-policy-1.3033774

“I’m preparing a policy paper saying that we should negotiate a bilateral deal with the British,” he says.
But that is not feasible from within the EU, as he knows.
“It isn’t doable within the current structure. So you have to go and negotiate. I think we should go to Europe and say we need to have these arrangements with the British. If you can accommodate us in a special arrangement with the EU, it would be great. If you can’t, let’s have the closest possible association with them.

First Up

Fratton Fred wrote:

It seems like he has been banging on about for a few months now

I know.

Professor Moriarty

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It seems like he has been banging on about for a few months now

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/former-ambassador-condemns-ireland-s-brexit-policy-1.3033774

According to that article, he is alone in his view. In fact "In Iveagh House, the palatial headquarters of the diplomatic corps on St Stephen’s Green, such a view amounts to heresy."

Also from the article:

"And for many former colleagues, Bassett’s heresy has been rather too public in recent months. A series of newspaper articles have riled the mandarins. He doesn’t mention it, but other sources observe that the department has asked that he cease referring to himself as a “former ambassador".

A senior department source observes wryly that as Bassett’s critiques of Government policy on Brexit have become more pronounced, he has been elevated in media descriptions from “former diplomat” to “former high ranking diplomat” to “one of Ireland’s most distinguished diplomats”."

There's a strong whiff of publicity-seeking about his maverick opinion.

Fratton Fred

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

According to that article, he is alone in his view. In fact "In Iveagh House, the palatial headquarters of the diplomatic corps on St Stephen’s Green, such a view amounts to heresy."

Also from the article:

"And for many former colleagues, Bassett’s heresy has been rather too public in recent months. A series of newspaper articles have riled the mandarins. He doesn’t mention it, but other sources observe that the department has asked that he cease referring to himself as a “former ambassador".

A senior department source observes wryly that as Bassett’s critiques of Government policy on Brexit have become more pronounced, he has been elevated in media descriptions from “former diplomat” to “former high ranking diplomat” to “one of Ireland’s most distinguished diplomats”."

There's a strong whiff of publicity-seeking about his maverick opinion.

So he isn't a Brexiteer determined to tear the EU down then?

Fratton Fred

serfboard wrote: »

Oh sorry, it came from a "Think Tank". Excuse me. Then obviously it has the veneer of respectability to it, and we all must take it seriously.

It came from a "Think Tank" called Policy Exchange. Policy Exchange is a Tory think tank funded by ... well we don't know actually because they won't say who their funders are. It has been ranked as "as one of the three least transparent think tanks in the UK in relation to funding." The UK campaign for think tank transparency, WhoFundsYou.org, rate Policy Exchange as 'E', the lowest score out of five for funding transparency.

So we don't know who funds policy exchange. But we do know who set it up and has run it over the years - and it's basically a mouthpiece for the Tory party.

So the answer to your question:

is - do you ever read anything yourself?

Having made the diastrous decision to leave the EU, some elements among the Brits are now trying to pull the institution down after them - and have (presumably handsomely) paid silly arse Ray Bassett to write some oul' ridiculous drivel saying that we should leave too.

What's amazing to me is that this load of nonsense is getting covered on RTE, The Irish Times and the Independent. I suppose Copy and Paste "Journalism" never refuses a press release.

care to comment after the last few posts?

Professor Moriarty

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So he isn't a Brexiteer determined to tear the EU down then?

How could he be a Brexiteer?

Fratton Fred

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

How could he be a Brexiteer?

I was just going on the assumptions of the few posts below.

People don't read things properly, put two and two together and jump to the wrong conclusions.

This thread is worse than Facebook.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2017/0703/887294-uk-report-ireland-needs-to-consider-leaving-eu/

You don't know if you should laugh or cry at the nonsense coming out of UK

steddyeddy wrote: »

Laugh at the thought and cry at the fact they're resorting to propaganda to break up the EU.

serfboard wrote: »

Oh sorry, it came from a "Think Tank". Excuse me. Then obviously it has the veneer of respectability to it, and we all must take it seriously.

It came from a "Think Tank" called Policy Exchange. Policy Exchange is a Tory think tank funded by ... well we don't know actually because they won't say who their funders are. It has been ranked as "as one of the three least transparent think tanks in the UK in relation to funding." The UK campaign for think tank transparency, WhoFundsYou.org, rate Policy Exchange as 'E', the lowest score out of five for funding transparency.

So we don't know who funds policy exchange. But we do know who set it up and has run it over the years - and it's basically a mouthpiece for the Tory party.

So the answer to your question:

is - do you ever read anything yourself?

Having made the diastrous decision to leave the EU, some elements among the Brits are now trying to pull the institution down after them - and have (presumably handsomely) paid silly arse Ray Bassett to write some oul' ridiculous drivel saying that we should leave too.

What's amazing to me is that this load of nonsense is getting covered on RTE, The Irish Times and the Independent. I suppose Copy and Paste "Journalism" never refuses a press release.

Enzokk wrote: »

I always got the idea that some Brexiteers didn't want to deal with the issue of Ireland and Northern Ireland or didn't have a plan in place and the easiest way to a solution in their eyes is to have Ireland as just another province/county of the UK. That will sort out their problems quickly, no need for the CTA and the GFA is sorted as well. The first step is to convince the people of Ireland that there isn't a future in the EU for them. This document is probably the first of many that will come forth to prove this point.

blanch152

Fratton Fred wrote: »

you don't think an ex ambassador to Canada is well known within the "Right Circles" in this country?

The circles that includes leading politicians, leading journalists and RTE executives?

He is well-known all right within those circles, and well-ignored.

First Up

Fratton Fred wrote:

I was just going on the assumptions of the few posts below.

Policy Exchange is a right wing mouthpiece run by neo-conservatives. They don't think about anything except pushing their ideological agenda.

Ray Bassett is a harmless windbag looking for an audience. They are well met but neither should be taken seriously.

RDM_83 again

Fratton Fred wrote: »

This thread is worse than Facebook.

Agreed, earlier in this thread Theresa May was being portrayed as being strongly pro-Brexit and nobody was calling it out despite it being completely false.

ancapailldorcha

There have been a few below standard posts here lately. No more please.

Enzokk

I do see a few people calling for an Irish Exit of the EU. They include Ray Bassett who called for it in January already of this year.

Ireland should not rule out leaving EU, says ex-diplomat


We also have Ian Paisley jnr telling us costs will go up due to Brexit and we should just fall in line with the UK as well. Costs will go up, due to the insane idea from the UK that they should leave the EU. This is the party that holds all the cards in the UK at the moment.

Ireland to LEAVE the EU? DUP MP urges Britain’s closest neighbours to follow Brexit

John Halligan also called for an Irish exit if the UK economy benefits from Brexit. I would guess looking at the growth figures at the moment and wage growth he would pipe down a little right now.

“I think we’ll be forced into it, our hand will be forced on it if Britain leaves and Britains appear to be doing OK outside of Europe. Because we all know that the European Union need to reform, the European Central Bank needs to reform. I was on the Council of Europe, a waste of ****ing space.

“I think a lot of countries are waiting in the wings to see how the British economy will be affected and we will be particularly waiting. It is possible, because of sound economics, we may have to review our position when we see how it befalls England.”

‘Won’t be long’ before calls to leave EU says John Halligan

But we have to look at facts and figures and at the moment investments in the UK are going down. Car investment pre-Brexit was £2.5b in the UK in 2015. In 2016 after the vote it was down to £1.66b and to date it has seen investment of only £322m for the first 6 months this year.

Investment in UK car industry plummets amid Brexit uncertainty I got access to the link by searching for the term on google and clicking the "news" link on the term

CrabRevolution

It won't happen. The only political party who'd even advocate leaving are the likes of AAA/PBP/Solidarity/Socialists/whatever. And if they ever somehow get into power in Ireland it will mean something truly earthshaking must have happened that could make leaving the EU a good idea for all I know. On top of that there just isn't the public will to leave.

While it could be said that the EU needs reform, I've no idea why John Halligan uses the Council of Europe in his argument against the EU. The Council of Europe is a totally different organisation which includes the likes of Switzerland, Russia, Turkey, Ukraine as well as all EU states.

First Up

Enzokk wrote:

I do see a few people calling for an Irish Exit of the EU. They include Ray Bassett who called for it in January already of this year.

He didn't call for an Irish exit. He said we shouldn't rule it out. His argument is that we should fight Ireland's corner - a magnificently obvious piece of advice that would never have occurred to anyone if he hadn't pointed it out.

Fratton Fred

First Up wrote: »

Policy Exchange is a right wing mouthpiece run by neo-conservatives. They don't think about anything except pushing their ideological agenda.

Ray Bassett is a harmless windbag looking for an audience. They are well met but neither should be taken seriously.

and yet they have been taken seriously enough to take up three pages and get people outraged.

Job done I'd say.

First Up

Fratton Fred wrote:

and yet they have been taken seriously enough to take up three pages and get people outraged.

Who is outraged?

steddyeddy

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Agreed, earlier in this thread Theresa May was being portrayed as being strongly pro-Brexit and nobody was calling it out despite it being completely false.

I have seen zero evidence that she is antything but a hard Brexiter.

FrancieBrady

First Up wrote: »

Who is outraged?

Indeed, I think the majority reaction is sniggering tbh.

First Up

FrancieBrady wrote:

Indeed, I think the majority reaction is sniggering tbh.

And/or a rolling of eyes.

Capt'n Midnight

It's a good thing May has a magic money tree. Yes the article says EDF will pickup the tab, and if you believe that the cost won't get passed on I've a bridge you may be interested in.

Hinkley Point: EDF adds £1.5bn to nuclear plant cost

2007: EDF boss predicts UK households will cook their Christmas turkeys in 2017 using power from Hinkley Point C
...
2017: July: EDF estimates the project will cost an extra £1.5bn and could be delayed beyond 2025 - eight years after its original target

This and the Moorside nuclear plant review mean the UK may become more reliant on imported electricity in future, and all that entails.

ancapailldorcha

Fratton Fred wrote: »

and yet they have been taken seriously enough to take up three pages and get people outraged.

Job done I'd say.

This is exactly what I was talking about. Last warning.

Enzokk

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

It's a good thing May has a magic money tree. Yes the article says EDF will pickup the tab, and if you believe that the cost won't get passed on I've a bridge you may be interested in.

Hinkley Point: EDF adds £1.5bn to nuclear plant cost

This and the Moorside nuclear plant review mean the UK may become more reliant on imported electricity in future, and all that entails.

I think the Hinkley deal is the definition of penny-wise and pound-foolish. Yes EDF has to pay the cost to build the plant, but the French state will receive the money from the British people. They have sold their energy infrastructure to the French.

Fratton Fred

Enzokk wrote: »

I think the Hinkley deal is the definition of penny-wise and pound-foolish. Yes EDF has to pay the cost to build the plant, but the French state will receive the money from the British people. They have sold their energy infrastructure to the French.

And the Germans, RWE own a big chunk as well.

That's a side effect of having a large liberalised energy market though.

murphaph

There seems to be more and more talking the British media about potentially leaving the single market but remaining in the customs union. What are your thoughts on how this scenario would affect us?

steddyeddy

Michel Barnier said there will be significant consequences for the UK post Brexit and no concessions will be given.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40321271