Brexit Referendum Superthread

Tigerandahalf

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Putting aside the financial services industry (and many of those people won't move to Dublin or Frankfurt meaning jobs for people here), but the likes of Apple, IBM, Google, Microsoft etc. will all be looking at making similar decisions.

Is that a good thing though. We are already hugely reliant on this sector.

One of the problems in the UK as mentioned is northern areas still not recovered from losing heavy manufacturing and wealth not being distributed out from London.

The same with Ire with policy pushing all companies into Dublin. More needs to be done for regional areas. There is no reason why many of these companies could be relocated to regional areas spreading development more evenly and providing incentives for investment in these areas.

BKtje

mansize wrote: »

I passed from Germany to Switzerland with no issue. No visa requirement no stamp on passport

Yes but the border still physically exists as they have to check customs. No need for passports as they (we perhaps I should say now) are part of Schengen. If the CTA survives then sure there might not be borders for people crossing over but there will be a border for customs therefore the headache remains. Perhaps when we say a border we are talking about different things.

whatever_ wrote: »

Britain and Ireland both rejected Schengen. Both support the Common Travel Area and nobody is arguing for an end to that.

Nope maybe not but custom inspections will still need to take place and declarations made which generally requires a physical manned border.

Adamcp898

partyguinness wrote: »

I think the 'first past the post' system does not help. Large swathes of the electorate do not get a 'voice'.

As mentioned by FOT today, 4m people voted for UKIP in the last election but it does not have a single MP.

Plus local MPs generally are parachuted into a constituency and have absolutely no connection with the locality or population which cannot help.

It has it's consequences too but this is more affected by the brand of democracy they (and we) have i.e. minimal involvement with a few votes every few years resulting in minimal political influence. It's a recipe for disillusionment.

CMOTDibbler

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Is that a good thing though. We are already hugely reliant on this sector.

One of the problems in the UK as mentioned is northern areas still not recovered from losing heavy manufacturing and wealth not being distributed out from London.

The same with Ire with policy pushing all companies into Dublin. More needs to be done for regional areas. There is no reason why many of these companies could be relocated to regional areas spreading development more evenly and providing incentives for investment in these areas.

It's a sector we actively chase because of its ability to create jobs. Apple are in Cork and there are a large number of biomedical companies in Galway. The improvement in the road infrastructure has helped a lot.

BKtje

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Is that a good thing though. We are already hugely reliant on this sector.

One of the problems in the UK as mentioned is northern areas still not recovered from losing heavy manufacturing and wealth not being distributed out from London.

The same with Ire with policy pushing all companies into Dublin. More needs to be done for regional areas. There is no reason why many of these companies could be relocated to regional areas spreading development more evenly and providing incentives for investment in these areas.

Are you seriously putting forward the idea that having less employment available is better? Surely it's better to have people employed and then make sure that you use that extra money to diversify to minimise the impact of those industries/jobs going elsewhere or ceasing to exist. Whether you trust the government to do that is a different question entirely though.

Those affected regions, would they have been better off never having had that employment and investment in the first place? I doubt it, especially if you are aware of the possibility of those jobs drying up.

Francie Barrett

Francie Barrett wrote: »

That is a good point. Don't we have a financial transactions tax in place here? The UK will no long be subject to anti-competition law in the EU, so I imagine they can throw incentives at an wavering City companies.

No, Ireland was able to opt-out of the FTT (Robin Hood Tax), thanks largely to the resistance to the tax from the City of London.

With Britain set to leave the EU, it seems that Ireland will be less able to resist the FTT in future. The remaining major Member States tend to favour FTT.

RobertKK

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Rory McIlroy

He mustn't want Hillary Clinton as president either.

Tigerandahalf

partyguinness wrote: »

I think the 'first past the post' system does not help. Large swathes of the electorate do not get a 'voice'.

As mentioned by FOT today, 4m people voted for UKIP in the last election but it does not have a single MP.

Plus local MPs generally are parachuted into a constituency and have absolutely no connection with the locality or population which cannot help.

That is very true. Shameful that such an amount of people have no voice. I think a lot of traditional labour voters may have voted Tory as they felt it may be the only way their voice would be represented.

When I see how the Labour Party is dominated by Blairites it is easy to see how they have lost touch with their voters.

K-9

mansize wrote: »

Who are clearly the most disenfranchised in our society- this needs to be addressed

Indeed it does, I'm not sure how Brexit will bring back well paid employment though. It isn't as if the Tories or indeed Labour are going to be anti globalist, freed trade, low paid jobs etc.

partyguinness

Adamcp898 wrote: »

It has it's consequences too but this is more affected by the brand of democracy they (and we) have i.e. minimal involvement with a few votes every few years resulting in minimal political influence. It's a recipe for disillusionment.

A big difference between Ire and the UK, is that the UK (England in particular) is a hugely complicated multicultural urban society with many many facets and over 60m people.

There is a huge disconnect between the 'ordinary man' and the political classes. In Ireland, everyone knows everyone- over here nobody knows anyone.

In 9 years, I have never had a politician knock on my door or even had a leaflet put through the post. Unlike in Ireland, ask most people over here who their local Councillor or MP is and they will more than likely have no idea- nor do they really care.

The problem with the Irish set up is that it's too parish pump and not necessarily in the national interest- too intimate.

On the other hand in the UK, it is too remote and you get large swathes of people who do not care and then the fringes get popular.

Billy86

partyguinness wrote: »

My co-worker is 70 and he voted 'Out' and this morning he is genuinely regretting it and mentioned his grand children suffering.

I think we have made a huge mistake]

Remind him of that he is right, and do it frequently. Not a hint of sympathy for the gobsh*te from here. That's the bed he made for himself. Few things wind me up as much as people voting without so much as stopping to think.

Adamcp898

partyguinness wrote: »

A big difference between Ire and the UK, is that the UK (England in particular) is a hugely complicated multicultural urban society with many many facets and over 60m people.

There is a huge disconnect between the 'ordinary man' and the political classes. In Ireland, everyone knows everyone- over here nobody knows anyone.

In 9 years, I have never had a politician knock on my door or even had a leaflet put through the post. Unlike in Ireland, ask most people over here who their local Councillor or MP is and they will more than likely have no idea- nor do they really care.

The problem with the Irish set up is that it's too parish pump and not necessarily in the national interest- too intimate.

On the other hand in the UK, it is too remote and you get large swathes of people who do not care and then the fringes get popular.

Yep, this is part of what I was getting at in my original post. There's a class divide and the disillusionment and isolation it has led created has manifested itself in what we see here today.

CMOTDibbler

partyguinness wrote: »

My co-worker is 70 and he voted 'Out' and this morning he is genuinely regretting it and mentioned his grand children suffering.

Billy86 wrote: »

I think we have made a huge mistake
Remind him of that he is right, and do it frequently. Not a hint of sympathy for the gobsh*te from here. That's the bed he made for himself. Few things wind me up as much as people voting without so much as stopping to think.

How hard is it to educate yourself on the issues? Doesn't matter what decision you come to if you have good reasons for making them.

marienbad

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

This is the best day in the history of the European Union since the Maastricht Treaty of 1992.

As an Irishman and a pro-European, I am DELIGHTED. No holding Europe back now. I hope the door doesn't hit Boris's magnificent arse on the way out.

Good on you Miltiades , always look on the bright side , your posts always have an optimistic outlook . Lets hope this is our Marathon.

oscarBravo

mansize wrote: »

Who are clearly the most disenfranchised in our society- this needs to be addressed

The most disenfranchised won a referendum? Neat trick.

Billy86

OfflerCrocGod wrote: »

I hope our boys in the IDA are all over this. English speaking, in the eurozone, stable, have I mentioned stable? We're stable, no risk of doing anything crazy here like leaving the EU.

https://twitter.com/JohnMoylanBBC/status/746322649186451456

Morgan Stanley looks to move 2,000 London staff
Posted at 13:53

BBC business reporter Joe Lynam reports...

Sources within Morgan Stanley say it has already begun the process of moving about 2,000 of its London-based investment banking staff to Dublin or Frankfurt. And it has a taskforce in place.

The jobs which would be moved from the UK would be in euro clearing but also other investment banking functions and senior management.

The American investment bank needs to avail of the passporting system which allows banks to offer financial services in all countries in the EU without having to establish a permanent base in that member state.

The president of Morgan Stanley, Colm Kelleher, told Bloomberg two days ago that Brexit would be “the most consequential thing that we’ve ever seen since the war”.

I've been working with a recruitment company in Toronto who do a good bit of work for HSBC and know a lot of their national hiring manager - just hearsay at this point of course, but don't be surprised to see MASSIVE numbers of HSBC jobs moved out of the UK pretty quickly, apparently lots of which will be going to Vancouver.

partyguinness

Billy86 wrote: »

I've been working with a recruitment company in Toronto who do a good bit of work for HSBC and know a lot of their national hiring manager - just hearsay at this point of course, but don't be surprised to see MASSIVE numbers of HSBC jobs moved out of the UK pretty quickly, apparently lots of which will be going to Vancouver.

Interesting as HSBC have already committed to moving huge numbers from London to Birmingham.

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/being-eu-made-hsbcs-1000-11418870

CMOTDibbler

https://twitter.com/hensmithhiggins/status/746231742764187648

partyguinness

Billy86 wrote: »

Remind him of that he is right, and do it frequently. Not a hint of sympathy for the gobsh*te from here. That's the bed he made for himself. Few things wind me up as much as people voting without so much as stopping to think.

That was really pissing me off over the last few weeks- people I spoke to having made their choice and were unable to articulate why they had reached that decision.

Whichever way you voted at least have the effing decency to know why.

c montgomery

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Basically white, old, poor ignorants said leave the most.

They only ignorance on display is from you.
You may not like the result but you have to respect it and people's genuine reasons for voting out.
Derogatory Attitudes like yours towards the no campaign voters are the reason they no longer want to be part of Europe.

CMOTDibbler

c montgomery wrote: »

They only ignorance on display is from you.
You may not like the result but you have to respect it and people's genuine reasons for voting out.
Derogatory Attitudes like yours towards the no campaign voters are the reason they no longer want to be part of Europe.

I can follow the first two sentiments, but that last sentence has me confused.

Isn't the derogatory attitude towards voters best exemplified by the respective campaigns run by their supposed elected representatives?

whatever_

partyguinness wrote: »

Well I am Irish and have been living in England for 9 years- I voted 'In' yesterday.

I do know that if I was still back in Ireland, I would be laughing my ass off but it ain't so funny here in the Midlands.



The village idiots have taken over.

You can dispense with all this doomsday nonsense - that was just referendum rhetoric. Europe has coped with far greater changes in recent years - the Iron Curtain, the Eurozone crisis. This is about our Independence and we achieved it with no bloodshed and by allowing as many people as possible the right to vote. Your attitude of describing people with a different point of view as "village idiots" says more about you than them.

Jelle1880

c montgomery wrote: »

They only ignorance on display is from you.
You may not like the result but you have to respect it and people's genuine reasons for voting out.
Derogatory Attitudes like yours towards the no campaign voters are the reason they no longer want to be part of Europe.

Why ? It's perfectly fine to think people were wrong in voting a certain way.

partyguinness

c montgomery wrote: »

They only ignorance on display is from you.
You may not like the result but you have to respect it and people's genuine reasons for voting out.
Derogatory Attitudes like yours towards the no campaign voters are the reason they no longer want to be part of Europe.

The 'Out' voters associated the EU with the sneering bleeding heart liberal elite a lá Trump against the liberal East & West coast.

I must admit to my own prejudices in that I felt the 'Out' voters are sentimental nationalist idiots but I kept that to myself as I recognise that attitude is not helpful and only reinforces perceptions and one of the reasons 'Out' won.

c montgomery

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I can follow the first two sentiments, but that last sentence has me confused.

Isn't the derogatory attitude towards voters best exemplified by the respective campaigns run by their supposed elected representatives?

IMO the main reason that alot of people voted out is because they had enough of immigration and didn't like the direction Europe was going in terms of this. They also had enough of the benefits culture that they mistakenly believe IMO that immigrants are after.
Anyone with this opinion is labelled an ignorant old racist and basically shouted down to submission. Well they had sanctuary in the polling box yesterday and have made their voices heard. If they had been listened to earlier rather than being demonized maybe this could all have been avoided.

partyguinness

whatever_ wrote: »

You can dispense with all this doomsday nonsense - that was just referendum rhetoric. Europe has coped with far greater changes in recent years - the Iron Curtain, the Eurozone crisis. This is about our Independence and we achieved it with no bloodshed and by allowing as many people as possible the right to vote.

I just chatting over lunch essentially agreeing that whatever happens a pragmatic solution to suit everyone will be found. We will all just get on with it.

This is not Europe May 1945 or the Balkans 1995. There are far bigger problems in the world- let's keep it in context

c montgomery

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Why ? It's perfectly fine to think people were wrong in voting a certain way.

Yes of course but you cant call them ignorant just because you disagree with them.

They could just be more informed that you.

CMOTDibbler

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Isn't the derogatory attitude towards voters best exemplified by the respective campaigns run by their supposed elected representatives?

Both campaigns were bitter and derogatory. Nevertheless, Leave were able to sell a slightly more affirmative pitch... "Lets be independent, lets control our own borders, lets be more democratic"

(You might disagree with them, I'm just saying, that was the propaganda)

And whilst Leave did castiagte Remain leaders as elitist, that's not necessarily as cutting an insult as calling someone an ignorant, racist caveman.

Nor were all voters referred to as elitists, only the leaders of the campaigns.

On balance, I think Remain launched quite a lot of personal attacks on ordinary voters who disagreed with them, and that just alienates people. Before you start articulating your policy, you've lost them.

CMOTDibbler

c montgomery wrote: »

IMO the main reason that alot of people voted out is because they had enough of immigration and didn't like the direction Europe was going in terms of this. They also had enough of the benefits culture that they mistakenly believe IMO that immigrants are after.
Anyone with this opinion is labelled an ignorant old racist and basically shouted down to submission. Well they had sanctuary in the polling box yesterday and have made their voices heard. If they had been listened to earlier rather than being demonized maybe this could all have been avoided.

OK. so instead of addressing their issues, as you say, one side demonised them as racists and the other played on their fears.

The question still has to be posed though, as to why individual voters do not equip themselves with freely available facts instead of listening and reacting to propaganda.

In the end, it's the voter that has to live with the decisions they make at the ballot box. Politicians accept that they have a precarious existence.

whatever_

c montgomery wrote: »

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I can follow the first two sentiments, but that last sentence has me confused.

Isn't the derogatory attitude towards voters best exemplified by the respective campaigns run by their supposed elected representatives?

IMO the main reason that alot of people voted out is because they had enough of immigration and didn't like the direction Europe was going in terms of this. They also had enough of the benefits culture that they mistakenly believe IMO that immigrants are after.
Anyone with this opinion is labelled an ignorant old racist and basically shouted down to submission. Well they had sanctuary in the polling box yesterday and have made their voices heard. If they had been listened to earlier rather than being demonized maybe this could all have been avoided.

The real failure here is the failure of Labour to engage with its traditional voters on the issue of immigration. This is a failure that goes back decades. It is an issue that Labour has found easier to ignore. If Labour had addressed this core issue then it is unlikely that this referendum would have been won. This issue is just as significant in other European countries.