Brexit Referendum Superthread

CMOTDibbler

smjm wrote: »

Likewise, London has a density of 5,432/km2.

Whichever way you look at it, England's population is vastly greater than Ireland's, without a corresponding land mass ratio. If Ireland had a population 6 times greater than it has now, things might be a bit of a squeeze!

Yeah, that's true. But realistically, population density isn't the deciding factor, it's the size of the economy and the marginal effect of the influx. Immigration as a percentage of the existing population has to be the most accurate* way of assessing the effect.

*For a given value of accurate. The economic marginalisation of swathes of England is the fault of successive governments.

A Dub in Glasgo

smjm wrote: »

Likewise, London has a density of 5,432/km2.

Whichever way you look at it, England's population is vastly greater than Ireland's, without a corresponding land mass ratio. If Ireland had a population 6 times greater than it has now, things might be a bit of a squeeze!

You should be using the population density of the UK not England

J Mysterio

mansize wrote: »

I imagine all the Brexiters expected to wake up today, with the men coming back from the mines or the factories and his wife serving him up some frothy warm ale while Vera Lynn plays on the wireless.

Except there are no more mines.

And now whatever industry they have left in those working class areas is going to take a further blow.

Cue reccession, despair, social unrest in the near future.

smjm

smjm wrote: »

Likewise, London has a density of 5,432/km2.

Whichever way you look at it, England's population is vastly greater than Ireland's, without a corresponding land mass ratio. If Ireland had a population 6 times greater than it has now, things might be a bit of a squeeze!

Age demographics matter too. Ireland has a younger labour force, whereas the Brits have a proportionately larger elderly population that needs support, and yet they have the worst youth unemployment in 20 years.

On the other hand, immigrants are less likely to be unemployed or receive benefits; they pay more than their fair share.

These arguments are difficult to reconcile. Valid points on both sides. I think we should stop branding as xenophobic those who want to control immigration (I'm not saying everyone in Remain is doing so)

We all want to control immigration on some level, it's a question of how much. We all want to control the allocation of resources. There is nothing necessarily racist or unreasonable in that.

smjm

Simple solution to Brexit:

Carry on free trade of goods and services.
All EU citizens currently working in UK can carry on doing so. (Many qualify for UK citizenship anyway.)
Allow free movement of people between EU and UK, but not freedom to work, which would be points based.
(UK would probably still have large net inward migration, but would feel better about having some control).
No right to UK welfare/benefits for EU citizens, unless they work (legally) in the UK.

Yeah, I know, a bit too simple!

K-9

J Mysterio wrote: »

Have seen a lot of idiots with voters remorse.
'my whole family voted leave but now our eyes are open', 'I would vote differently now'

Open to what though?

Are the horsemen outside the house? Seriously, I don't get that at all.

LuckyLloyd

Patser wrote: »

Hang on

The UK has just voted to leave a Union it has been a member of for over 30 years, has lost its PM and split the governing party, it's main opposition party is equally fighting amongst itself and the only successful party, UKIP, has a grand total of 1 MP. Into this political turmoil you have the largest collapse of their Country's stock market, currency falls and the serious threat of Scotland (and NI) looking for referenda on independence.

This all on top of the need over the next 2 years to disentangle itself, rewrite and renegotiate itself from that 30 year Union and on a global level too.

And people see it as a good thing!

Yeah but something something undemocratic bureaucratic something something independence something something sticking it to them something freedom.

smjm

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You should be using the population density of the UK not England

Nope, I'm using England as that's where the large majority of UK net migration ends up. Even then, we could concentrate only on those parts of England most affected by increasing population density. My point really is that simple numbers aren't always valid comparisons and that anyone can state facts that back their argument.

CMOTDibbler

smjm wrote: »

Nope, I'm using England as that's where the large majority of UK net migration ends up. Even then, we could concentrate only on those parts of England most affected by increasing population density. My point really is that simple numbers aren't always valid comparisons and that anyone can state facts that back their argument.

Yes, but having a conversation like this is what gives you a contextualisation of the issue. Headline numbers give no context.

Dr. Bre

The empire strikes back-wards

A Dub in Glasgo

smjm wrote: »

Nope, I'm using England as that's where the large majority of UK net migration ends up. Even then, we could concentrate only on those parts of England most affected by increasing population density. My point really is that simple numbers aren't always valid comparisons and that anyone can state facts that back their argument.

You are using England to further your argument when the correct thing to do is use the UK. Afterall England is not the country that has membership of the EU :pac:

bleg

Now's the time to up the price for people based in the UK getting an Irish passport.

smjm

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Yes, but having a conversation like this is what gives you a contextualisation of the issue. Headline numbers give no context.

We all think on macro and micro levels: what we think, rightly or wrongly, affects our country/people/state and what we know, personally, affects ourselves and our family and our neighbours, such as the inability to get a child into a local school, or having to wait a week to get a doctor's appointment. When the people of the UK voted yesterday, they weighed up micro and macro concerns, as we all do, and then voted accordingly. Gut feeling and personal experience usually triumph over any numbers given or facts stated or speeches listened to, because few people trust politicians or the media or the experts etc anyway!

Sorry for rambling/ranting

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You are using England to further your argument when the correct thing to do is use the UK. Afterall England is not the country that has membership of the EU :pac:

He's right to use that example. You should probably break it down even more regionally.

People vote for their interests based on what they see around them. The good people of Sunderland and the north of England don't see life through the prism of a Highland idyll. They see people struggle to find housing, they see ridiculous waiting lists to see a doctor, and inadequate social supports.

Jimmy Garlic

A great day. Watching the shrill unrestrained hysteria displayed by the good little EU blockheads who thought it was in the bag is very amusing indeed. The EU is a sinking ship, doomed to fail, a sugar coated Soviet Union. Britain had the good sense to make good its escape.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

smjm wrote: »

Simple solution to Brexit:

Carry on free trade of goods and services.
All EU citizens currently working in UK can carry on doing so. (Many qualify for UK citizenship anyway.)
Allow free movement of people between EU and UK, but not freedom to work, which would be points based.
(UK would probably still have large net inward migration, but would feel better about having some control).
No right to UK welfare/benefits for EU citizens, unless they work (legally) in the UK.

Yeah, I know, a bit too simple!

I think it will ultimately come to something like this. But on the other hand there has to be some sort of downside to leaving or else we'll all jump ship. The eu/Germany to stick the knife in if they get the chance.

smjm

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You are using England to further your argument [...]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing, and that's the general point I'm trying to make!

smjm

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

I think it will ultimately come to something like this. But on the other hand there has to be some sort of downside to leaving or else we'll all jump ship. The eu/Germany to stick the knife in if they get the chance.

Or, if people thought it was a reasonable idea, it could be used as a model for the reformed EU that many politicians are now saying is needed. No need for fighting; why can't we all just get along!?

onlyme!

Jimmy Garlic

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

A great day. Watching the shrill unrestrained hysteria displayed by the good little EU blockheads who thought it was in the bag is very amusing indeed. The EU is a sinking ship, doomed to fail, a sugar coated Soviet Union. Britain had the good sense to make good its escape.

I think you're going to be very disappointed, then.

What Member State has been most critical of the EU?
What Member State has continually sought to slow down integration?
What Member State has most fervently resisted fiscal & political union?
What Member State has most curtly rejected European solidarity?

That country is about to exit stage left. The wet blanket is leaving the building.

LETS GET EUROPEAN!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jzQ09mc71g

Rightwing

Long day...great day.

Your turn now Holland.

BoJack Horseman

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

LETS GET EUROPEAN.

Indeed, without the UK handbrake, we are free to merge to the single government super-state we've been promised for some decades now.

All opposition is clear.

J Mysterio

K-9 wrote: »

Open to what though?

Are the horsemen outside the house? Seriously, I don't get that at all.

Fairly obvious I would have thought. They didnt educate themselves prior to the vote.

The spin in the UK media and the off topic nonsense from the political parties probably did not help. Now the ramifications of leaving are being discussed, they regret their leave vote.

Polo_Mint

The EU should use this now to reflect on all there policies.

Free trade & Free Movement of EU citizens is the starting point.

the 27 members should first go through the rest of the EU policies and work out which policies are better served either as a whole or by there own government.


Also the 35000 people in EU jobs should be reviewed and streamlined so the Citizens of the EU know exactly what each area are responsible for.

Also, Top jobs in the EU Commission should be elected by the citizens of the EU rather then sending the people who you actually dont want in your own government.

The EU just needs to be slim lined and not run like on large entity

CMOTDibbler

"There has been an increase in queries in respect of entitlements to Irish passports today; however, reports of queues outside the passport offices are incorrect and the passport offices in Dublin and Cork are operating as normal," a spokeswoman told the Press Association.

Rightwing

Go on Merkel, hurry up with fast tracking of the Turks in. :rolleyes:

CMOTDibbler

mansize wrote: »

No accession for the next while. Poor Croatia.

Never mind the fact that Turkey doesn't come remotely close to meeting the criteria for joining.

Ally Dick

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Britain had the good sense to make good its escape.

Britain has always wanted to have their cake and eat it too. Now they have their sh1te. I hope it's a disaster for them

Subcomandante Marcos

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Never mind the fact that Turkey doesn't come remotely close to meeting the criteria for joining.

And Croatia is already a member...

onlyme!

Ally Dick wrote: »

Britain has always wanted to have their cake and eat it too. Now they have their sh1te. I hope it's a disaster for them

Where as ireland just bends over for angela, with her big strap-on when she feels like it