Brexit Referendum Superthread

Bob24

The need politicians feel to look cool in all circumpstances and pretend like they are "normal" people is a bit silly to me (though representative of our societies).

Does the below really belong to the official communication channel of German diplomatic services?

https://twitter.com/GermanyDiplo/status/746421465554128897

ancapailldorcha

A lot of them were younger people who would have favoured remaining in the EU. That might swing them.

OfflerCrocGod

The fact that 17.4 million people voted to leave based on lies and nonsense is a good enough reason to rerun the vote.

Tigerandahalf

Corbyn will be there til the next election. He has widespread support on the ground among Labour membership. Outing him is not the answer.

The problem for Labour is that they are pro Europe yet their core vote has voted to leave the EU.

That needs to sink in for the centrist people in the party.

I think they lost a lot of votes in the last election as their voters saw the Conservatives as the only party offering the option of leaving the EU.

Labour needs to sort out their policies not their leader.

With so many young people unemployed or underemployed across Europe it is inevitable that Labour parties across Europe will have to move further to the Left.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Maybe not but repeated attempts might. In any case, why is Boris now saying that there is no hurry to invoke Article 50 I wonder?

I firmly believe Boris wanted to lose a close referendum. This would set him up to bring some of the UKIP votes back to conservative next time round, whilst agreeing to respect the will of the people. He skirted a cliff and fell though.

I think he look like he had **** himself when he was doing that press conference yesterday morning.

Any delay in Article 50 invocation is useful in perhaps delaying actual Brexit, but I do not see a way for this juggernaut to be turned around. The genie is out of the bottle, and they tossed the cork away. Society is polarised, and obviously so given the demographic and geographic splits, and the worst bit is that the Leave have stirred up all this anti-immigrant stuff for absolutely no avail. Farage's 'no blood' nonsense was all of painful, incorrect and premature.

I can't see this becoming OXI means Yes. http://www.economist.com/news/business-and-finance/21657002-landslide-victory-rejecting-countrys-creditors-demands-oxymoron-or-pyrrhic-victory

Bob24

OfflerCrocGod wrote: »

The fact that 17.4 million people voted to leave based on lies and nonsense is a good enough reason to rerun the vote.

We should re-run every single vote we have had in the past decades so?

Demagogy is inherent to democracy and what you said can probably apply to every election in every country.

ancapailldorcha

Bob24 wrote: »

We should re-run every single vote we have had in the past decades so?

Demagogy is inherent to democracy and what you said can probably apply to every election in every country.

Farage was all for a second referendum if Remain cinched it.

Bob24

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Farage was all for a second referendum if Remain cinched it.

That's what I am saying: partisans will always find reasons to say a vote was not valid if it doesn't suit their ideology. On both sides. Agreeing with some of them and not with others is having double standards.

My father put it well last night I felt.

Wimbledon Tennis Club wouldn't allow a name change on the back of a members 51-49 vote, let alone a change to becoming a badminton club.

WIne Gums

Here are a few numbers to chew on.

The total UK Electorate 46487579

Votes Cast -:
Remain 16141241
Leave 17410742

by these numbers,
62.55% of the electorate DID NOT vote to leave EU.

Obviously, the votes cast dictated the result,
but it can be said that the result does not reflect the will of the electorate,
only the those who voted.

Interesting statistic ????

- I previously posted this to another forum.

Votes not cast are votes not to be counted.

Unless voting is mandatory, there is a middle option which is abstain, which is a valid option, and there is no way you can count them as lending favour to either side. They are more aptly considered to as spoiled votes.

8 Friends go to the cinema.
3 want to watch X-Men
2 want to watch Pride & Prejudice
The other 3 don't care.

If the 2 that wanted to watch Pride & Prejudice stated that they as a group couldn't watch X-Men because 62.5% of them didn't choose it you would laugh at them.

Bob24

WIne Gums wrote: »

Here are a few numbers to chew on.

The total UK Electorate 46487579

Votes Cast -:
Remain 16141241
Leave 17410742

by these numbers,
62.55% of the electorate DID NOT vote to leave EU.

Obviously, the votes cast dictated the result,
but it can be said that the result does not reflect the will of the electorate,
only the those who voted.

Interesting statistic ????

- I previously posted this to another forum.

Not sure this is going anywhere though ...

With the same figures you can also say 65.27% of the electorate did not vote to remain.

What is the conclusion then?

Bob24

Bob24 wrote: »

OK, but with the same figures you can also say 65.27% of the electorate did not vote to remain.

What is the conclusion then?

Shrodinger's Brexit?

ancapailldorcha

Bob24 wrote: »

That's what I am saying: partisans will always find reasons to say a vote was not valid if it doesn't suit their ideology. On both sides. Agreeing with some of them and not with others is having double standards.

The problem I have is that the rhetoric for the leave campaign amounted to "Trade globally, be good neighbours with Europe and control our borders." Now we see the EEA option being touted which will mean most of the EU regulation being enforced along with free movement along with a prominent Leave campaigner saying that there is no hurry to leave.

pablomakaveli

OfflerCrocGod wrote: »

The fact that 17.4 million people voted to leave based on lies and nonsense is a good enough reason to rerun the vote.

Thats whats made this feel really frustrating for me. The fact so many Leave voters voted based on lies and misinformation. Many of those lies have already unravelled since the result.

The Remain campaign shoulders some blame for not running a good campaign but the Leave campaigns happily peddled these lies. I had that infamous leaflet through my door last week. It had rubbish about an EU army,Turkey joining the EU and the EU getting rid of the Queen. All easily disproved lies if you bothered to look it up but there were people who believed it and didnt bother to fact check.

I know people have complained that Leave voters are being painted as xenophobic and uneducated but a lot of the ones I know or have encountered fit that description. I completely accept that some Leave voters had more informed reasons for voting out but it's not unfair to say a lot were led by jingoism and xenophobia.

I think a rerun referendum would be a fair decision if both campaigns were forced to avoid the bull**** and use facts but I cant see it happening. I've already seen some Leavers being outraged at the petition for another referendum and they'll be more entrenched in their views.

WIne Gums

Bob24 wrote: »

Not sure this is going anywhere though ...

With the same figures you can also say 65.27% of the electorate did not vote to remain.

What is the conclusion then?

Correct, it's just showing what statistics can or cannot tell.
It all depends on what you want to spin from them,,,,

mansize

I think the UK's EU Commissioner's position is untenable and he must resign.

The EU are not going to let the UK control the timetable

Mec27

http://news.sky.com/story/1717427/uk-must-trigger-article-50-urgently-france

I think when the dust settles the UK is going to serve as an example for other E.U states to not leave the Union. They are going to reapply for membership within two decades I'd wager.

mansize

"People in this country have had enough of experts”.

Imagine that being a winning slogan

Bob24

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The problem I have is that the rhetoric for the leave campaign amounted to "Trade globally, be good neighbours with Europe and control our borders." Now we see the EEA option being touted which will mean most of the EU regulation being enforced along with free movement along with a prominent Leave campaigner saying that there is no hurry to leave.

And people in the remain campaign were saying that shall their option prevail, they would renegotiate the rules around freedom of movement of EU citizens. Which is clearly a no-go from the EU's perspective and would never have been done.

Would people who are now calling for a re-vote have done the same based on that failed promise of remain campaingers, shall the result have been different?


This is democracy: people listen to campaigners (which are all demagogic to some extend), choose what they believe or not, and cast a vote. Again, if every failed promise or dodgy argument was to justify to re-run an election or a referundum, we might as well voting.

Nollog

WIne Gums wrote: »

Here are a few numbers to chew on.

The total UK Electorate 46487579

Votes Cast -:
Remain 16141241
Leave 17410742

by these numbers,
62.55% of the electorate DID NOT vote to leave EU.

Obviously, the votes cast dictated the result,
but it can be said that the result does not reflect the will of the electorate,
only the those who voted.

Interesting statistic ????

- I previously posted this to another forum.

Yes: 1,201,607
No: 734,300
Total Electorate: 3,221,681

So 62.7% of Irish people voted NOT to change the constitution on marriage last year?

Bit cynical

Mec27 wrote: »

http://news.sky.com/story/1717427/uk-must-trigger-article-50-urgently-france

I think when the dust settles the UK is going to serve as an example for other E.U states to not leave the Union. They are going to reapply for membership within two decades I'd wager.

Really more of a message from the French government to their own electorate though I doubt even the French will take much notice.

mansize

No re-run. rUK is OUT.

If Scotland want to remain that option should be looked at

ancapailldorcha

Bob24 wrote: »

And people in the remain campaign were saying that shall their option prevail, they would renegotiate the rules around freedom of movement of EU citizens. Which is clearly a no-go from the EU's perspective and would never have been done.

The only person who mentioned this was David Cameron. There was an unspoken agreement that it was tosh and the Leave side rightly called him out on it. Freedom of movement isn't going away Remain or Leave.

Bob24 wrote: »

Would people who are now calling for a re-vote have done the same based on that failed promise of remain campaingers, shall the result have been different?

This wasn't made. It was carefully worded with terms like "pay in for four years before taking out".

Bob24 wrote: »

This is democracy: people listen to campaigners (which are all demagogic to some extend), choose what they believe or not, and cast a vote. Again, if every failed promise or dodgy argument was to justify to re-run an election or a referundum, we might as well voting.

So it's fine for campaigners to tell barefaced lies? Will we get a referendum on the UK-EU trade deal?

ShooterSF

Yep I can see it now,

Scotland: "So we're re-running referendums are we?"

Polo_Mint

Mec27 wrote: »

http://news.sky.com/story/1717427/uk-must-trigger-article-50-urgently-france

I think when the dust settles the UK is going to serve as an example for other E.U states to not leave the Union. They are going to reapply for membership within two decades I'd wager.

Exactly

The EU have just fell out of bed and hit the floor hard.

The EU now will take priority notice of the feelings in all EU states about the mindset of the people.


Any changes in EU policies regarding this direction is where the EU will hold its self together.


The problem with the UK now is they will be looking in the window at major EU reform with no part to play in it

Bob24

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

So it's fine for campaigners to tell barefaced lies? Will we get a referendum on the UK-EU trade deal?

Again you want to re-run every election whereby broken promises were made during the campaign?

gandalf

Mec27 wrote: »

http://news.sky.com/story/1717427/uk-must-trigger-article-50-urgently-france

I think when the dust settles the UK is going to serve as an example for other E.U states to not leave the Union. They are going to reapply for membership within two decades I'd wager.

The French and the EU authorities are saying this because they have to remove the uncertainty that effects the future of the EU and it's 400million+ citizens. The UK have pulled the trigger so it is absolutely right that the negotiations start with immediate effect.

smjm

Polo_Mint wrote: »

The problem with the UK now is they will be looking in the window at major EU reform with no part to play in it

What EU reform do you actually foresee though?

ancapailldorcha

Bob24 wrote: »

Again you want to re-run every election whereby broken promises were made during the campaign?

I never said this. We're talking about barefaced lies which were told with full knowledge that they were such.