Brexit Referendum Superthread

mansize

smjm wrote: »

What EU reform do you actually foresee though?

There will always be reform.

Nothing that doesn't change doesn't survive

Bit cynical

Polo_Mint wrote: »

Exactly

The EU have just fell out of bed and hit the floor hard.

The EU now will take priority notice of the feelings in all EU states about the mindset of the people.

Any changes in EU policies regarding this direction is where the EU will hold its self together.

The problem with the UK now is they will be looking in the window at major EU reform with no part to play in it

However it is very much in Britain's interest that the EU reform itself even if Britain is not a member.

The problem is what is the EU going to do? Traditionally the response to crises in the EU is "More Europe", i.e. more institutions, greater power for the institutions etc. However if electorates are becoming disenchanted with the very notion of the EU and seeking more national autonomy, "More Europe" won't help.

mansize

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I never said this. We're talking about barefaced lies which were told with full knowledge that they were such.

The Leave voters were given all the information- what they chose to believe is their prerogative

"Sincerely held beliefs" and all that...

Polo_Mint

smjm wrote: »

What EU reform do you actually foresee though?

It's already changing focus to not the rights and wrongs morally but what EU citizens want

On Tuesday EU leaders will open a two-day Brussels summit on the crisis at which a change of direction is likely to be on the agenda.

Belgian Foreign Minister Didier Reynders told reporters Europe must deliver answers on immigration, security and jobs

mansize

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36629646?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

UK's EU Commissioner has resigned

CMOTDibbler

mansize wrote: »

The Leave voters were given all the information- what they chose to believe is their prerogative

"Sincerely held beliefs" and all that...

And many of them (if not most) will still hold those beliefs and are still celebrating "taking their country back".

Bob24

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I never said this. We're talking about barefaced lies which were told with full knowledge that they were such.

Like saying "I think we have to reassure people that if they vote remain on Thursday 23 June, that isn’t the end of the reform package for Europe. I think a future Europe will have to look at things like the free movement of labour rules.".

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/14/tom-watson-eu-freedom-movement-may-need-reform

It seriously happens all the time ...

smjm

mansize wrote: »

There will always be reform.

Nothing that doesn't change doesn't survive

Can you give an example of the change you'd like yourself though?

Polo_Mint

Bit cynical wrote: »

However it is very much in Britain's interest that the EU reform itself even if Britain is not a member.

The problem is what is the EU going to do? Traditionally the response to crises in the EU is "More Europe", i.e. more institutions, greater power for the institutions etc. However if electorates are becoming disenchanted with the very notion of the EU and seeking more national autonomy, "More Europe" won't help.

Exactly

So I believe the EU will now focus on what they have.

Review what current EU citizens like and don't like in regards of the setup.

The EU sleepwalked into this but they have there eyes wide open now

CMOTDibbler

ancapailldorcha

Bob24 wrote: »

Like saying "I think we have to reassure people that if they vote remain on Thursday 23 June, that isn’t the end of the reform package for Europe. I think a future Europe will have to look at things like the free movement of labour rules.".

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/14/tom-watson-eu-freedom-movement-may-need-reform

It seriously happens all the time ...

"Look at things" is far away from being a promise of enriching the NHS with £10 billion.

mansize

smjm wrote: »

Can you give an example of the change you'd like yourself though?

What specifically name reform- one I'm thinking would be to start the clock when a county votes out. And not allow them to hold it over the other member states. Either they start the clock or advise tbey are looking at re-running the referendum if certain external issues affected the result.

But I can't foretell what change would be required I just understand that nothing remains constant so change is required

mansize

Free movement of labour is linked with free movement of goods and services- you can't seperate them to appeal to a jingoistic minority that were lied to by their own parliament

smjm

Polo_Mint wrote: »

It's already changing focus to not the rights and wrongs morally but what EU citizens want

On Tuesday EU leaders will open a two-day Brussels summit on the crisis at which a change of direction is likely to be on the agenda.

Belgian Foreign Minister Didier Reynders told reporters Europe must deliver answers on immigration, security and jobs

Might have been a better idea to have the summit before the UK vote!

donaghs

micosoft wrote: »

So OpenEurope - a eurosceptic think tank in the UK held a fascinating mock negotiation between the Uk (represented by Malcolm Rifkind & Norman Lamont) and the other EU states (Ireland represented by John Bruton) most of home are ex Premiers/Prime Ministers from the various states. It's well worth viewing but two things really emerge:

- The Initial Negotiation will be tough.
- If the UK chooses Brexit the negotiations will be even tougher - no quarter will be given.

In short, what the Euro Sceptics fail to recognise again and again is that they are not negotiating with "the EU". They are negotiating with the other 27 states who have their own strong views on the future of Europe. In fact it's clear that there is real anger in continental Europe over Camerons solo run. There is a real lack of trust with Bruton asking how can we know if the this is the last time the UK comes looking to renegotiate.

Depends what you mean by "anger in Europe" considering a recent opinion poll showed a greater proportion of Frnch people wanted to leave the EU, compared with the U.K.
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/08/forget-the-uk-these-countries-hate-the-eu-even-more.html


Those 27 states dont have the same views on the future of the EU. Sweden and Poland saw the UK as and ally in the EU. Ireland and Denmark basically joined the EEC because their main trading partner the UK was joining.

The U.K. will always have an issue with a Federalist EU is it continues to fail the Tony Benn test, which as much as we complain about our own political process, there is some control and accountability:

“What power have you got?”

“Where did you get it from?”

“In whose interests do you use it?”

“To whom are you accountable?”

“How do we get rid of you?”

CMOTDibbler

donaghs wrote: »

Depends what you mean by "anger in Europe" considering a recent opinion poll showed a greater proportion of Frnch people wanted to leave the EU, compared with the U.K.
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/08/forget-the-uk-these-countries-hate-the-eu-even-more.html

I don't think that poll shows who else wants to leave the EU. It seems to be more about dissatisfaction and devolved power than exit.

As I suspect that most polls on the EU in the last twenty years may well have echoed.

I would be interested in seeing a similar poll now after Britain chose the nuclear option.

Polo_Mint

smjm wrote: »

Might have been a better idea to have the summit before the UK vote!

I fully agree with you.

but the brexit was the alarm going off

The EU walked into this thinking people will just accept change from consultants in the EU.

Now they only way of stopping referendums within the rest of the EU is to find out all the common issues within the EU as it stands now and correct them.

The UK has now done everyone in the EU a favour by setting the alarm.

The EU commission is going to speak to all parties in each country to create a common ground to move forward.

They will ask everyone their views on what will keep the EU together and work from that framework.

But they UK will not be involved now because they jumped the gun which has now benefited everyone

mansize

mansize wrote: »

Nothing that doesn't change doesn't survive

You've broken my brain.

smjm

Polo_Mint wrote: »

But they UK will not be involved now because they jumped the gun which has now benefited everyone

The EU's great isn't it:

UK: "the EU needs reform!"
EU: "no it doesn't!"
UK: "we think it does!"
EU: "then leave the EU!"
UK: "okay!"
EU: "the EU needs reform!"

embraer170

The EU is constantly changing and evolving. Look at the concessions granted to the UK in February this year, which have now been voided.

And it's certainly not new to hear a head of an EU Institution call for change.

mansize

smjm wrote: »

The EU's great isn't it:

UK: "the EU needs reform!"
EU: "no it doesn't!"
UK: "we think it does!"
EU: "then leave the EU!"
UK: "okay!"
EU: "the EU needs reform!"

They didn't look for reform- they voted to leave

BlitzKrieg

Leave campaigner Nigel Evans has denied immigration will fall after the UK voted to leave the EU. The Conservative MP said there had been some “misunderstanding” over the Leave campaign’s position on reducing immigration.

http://bbc.in/28Yg2J2

smjm

mansize wrote: »

They didn't look for reform- they voted to leave

Cameron's negotiations earlier in the year weren't looking for reform?

mansize

smjm wrote: »

Cameron's negotiations earlier in the year weren't looking for reform?

Yes that was rejected
The reform you speak of was AGREED by the EU

Where's that in your sketch?

OfflerCrocGod

Ian Paisley Jnr recommending people get an Irish passport if they are entitled to one.

https://twitter.com/ianpaisleymp/status/746316224024481792

#Brexit*



* but not for us in the North

Polo_Mint

smjm wrote: »

The EU's great isn't it:

UK: "the EU needs reform!"
EU: "no it doesn't!"
UK: "we think it does!"
EU: "then leave the EU!"
UK: "okay!"
EU: "the EU needs reform!"

Thats the way the cookie crumbles

Its why I believe the UK has done the EU a favour.

The EU will now reform to make sure it doesnt happen again by taking off the headset

The UK I believe will be fucked because now there is a massive divide of citizens of what they want.

BlitzKrieg

In other news Farage gets to keep getting paid and do nothing until the UK leaves the EU or there is another european election


http://www.politico.eu/article/european-parliament-mep-dossiers-up-for-grabs-if-uk-heads-for-brexit/

smjm

mansize wrote: »

Yes that was rejected
The reform you speak of was AGREED by the EU

Where's that in your sketch?

Sorry, but I really don't understand your post. Never mind, we'll probably disagree on most things anyway!

Mental Mickey

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

In other news Farage gets to keep getting paid and do nothing until the UK leaves the EU or there is another european election


http://www.politico.eu/article/european-parliament-mep-dossiers-up-for-grabs-if-uk-heads-for-brexit/

Farage is an idiot

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

I have never understood why working class people vote Tory. They wreaked havoc in the North of England, particularly Liverpool. They closed the mines, the car factories and the steel mills. However they did create the City of London financial casino, where rules are few and profits large.

Is it because they feel they get some kind of reflected poshness from it?

I always find that question engrossing. It's one of the most difficult riddles in political science. Why did poor people vote Tory, Republican, or Progressive Democrats (RIP)?

Some theories:

• Poor people don't know they are poor. Something like 90% of US citizens describe themselves as the struggling middle class, although economic statistics (and basic arithmetic) tell us that's not the case. People prefer to see themselves as middle class; they prefer to imagine some mythical phalanx of resource-scroungers whom the Government should attack
• Liberal economic policy, such as free trade, appeals to human instincts, honed by sociological environment which celebrates entrepreneurship, and by (undeserved) cynicism towards the State in popular media
• Bill Clinton was wrong: it's not all about the economy. Social liberalism tends to be positively correlated with household income. Poorer households tend to be socially conservative, and their values correspond more closely with conservative parties who happen to be anti-poor

gandalf wrote: »

The French and the EU authorities are saying this because they have to remove the uncertainty that effects the future of the EU and it's 400million+ citizens.

I think that's naive, with respect.

Juncker's comments only add to market jitters and the sense of uncertainty. If his main intention were to restore stability, he would have made that comment in a telephone call to Number 10, not in a press-release. His press release would have said nothing is changing in the short term, don't lets anybody panic.

No. Juncker's intention by being so public was either a negotiating tactic for a new agreement with the UK, or it was a warning signal to Eurosceptic Member States who may be considering a plebiscite on EU membership.

It was a very deliberate statement; quite fascinating, indeed. But I think it's utterly naive to take it at face value, a rule that generally applies throughout politics.