Brexit Referendum Superthread

Tigerandahalf

What happens to the EU budget now that the UK will no longer be contributing?

How exactly do people measure what they pay in and take out? Isn't it all just through trade and so difficult to measure. It is not like there are direct taxes for EU membership.

For those who wanted Remain to win out what future do you see for Europe - a federal Europe?

What do people make of Farrage's comments re the UK already slipping back into recession.

Let's remember when the Tories got reelected the economy was the up. That is no longer the case. Public spending still is out of kilter and their trade balance is not good.

So Remain people what were going to be the solutions if remain had won out?

K-9

cml387 wrote: »

Really?
Who would be on this commission? How could they be considered completely unbiased.No doubt both sides could find evidence of previous views of these paragons which would cast doubt on their impartiality.
And how on earth could they counteract an argument, for example, that the 350 million rescued from Brussels will be spent n the NHS. Would they say "No that's a lie, they'll row back on that immediately afterwards "?
Would they contradict treasury forecasts that predicted that Britain would be worse off outside the EU? On what basis could they do that?

Well for a start they'd say there is no £350 million in the first place...

ancapailldorcha

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

What happens to the EU budget now that the UK will no longer be contributing?

The UK will continue to contribute as long as it is a member. It will remain a member until negotiations have concluded.

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

So Remain people what were going to be the solutions?

Continue to lobby the EU to reduce regulation and reform to suit British interests. David Cameron secured an exemption from future Eurozone bailouts. That was a decent start.

LiamoSail

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Oh ffs. Self proclaimed intellectuals who sup from an imaginary fountain of knowledge proclaim that Joe Public is too stupid to to get the right answer. Condescending pri*ks full of their own self-importance say that democracy is only democracy when they get the answer that they want.

It might sound condescending but that doesn't invalidate the point. It's no coincidence that the educated, the young and the wealth creators for the most part wanted to remain.

Middle England have had their fears played upon to entice them into playing Deal or No Deal with the country's future. This gamble has massive reprecussions, and it's far from condescending to suggest that the stereotypical English Leave voter, uneducated, hostile towards immigration, over 55, has a minimal understanding of what the true implications are and how they'll impact on them

Inquitus

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Oh ffs. Self proclaimed intellectuals who sup from an imaginary fountain of knowledge proclaim that Joe Public is too stupid to to get the right answer. Condescending pri*ks full of their own self-importance say that democracy is only democracy when they get the answer that they want.

Representative democracy is based on the concept of having elected leaders make complex decisions on your behalf based on expert advice, not having a crapshoot referendum on them.

LiamoSail

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Why are proponents of remain being asked for a solution when the leave side won?

The man the Brexiters claimed was wrong about Brexit, the Govenor of the Bank of England, will now have a substantial role in managing the economy post Brexit. Just another of the scratch your head what the hell were they thinking coincidences

K-9

In fairness we in Ireland are a bit over exposed to referendums whereas they are a bit of a novelty in Britain.

Aineoil

Billy86 wrote: »

I'm praying this is fake, but given how weird the last few days have been, I'm not even so sure it is...

It is indeed fake....... Brad Holmes and Jenny Davies, making lots of fun videos. The problem is that they usually imitate real people.

Bit cynical

LiamoSail wrote: »

It might sound condescending but that doesn't invalidate the point. It's no coincidence that the educated, the young and the wealth creators for the most part wanted to remain.

In fairness to the old, they tend to come out and vote for what they want. Remain would have carried if more young people had actually voted.

On the point of wealth creators, it is by no means unanimous that they were in favour of Remain. The debate tended to be dominated by big banks and institutions that can destroy wealth as quickly as create it. James Dyson for one wanted to Leave but people like him did not get the amount of air time as the banks.

Tigerandahalf

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Continue to lobby the EU to reduce regulation and reform to suit British interests. David Cameron secured an exemption from future Eurozone bailouts. That was a decent start.

But is that going to solve any of the long term problems. The youth unemployment and the decline of previous prosperous regions.
We have had 10 years of this now in Europe and the problems only seem to be getting worse.

Yet we still have huge companies paying basically zero tax and people say let's carry on regardless.

I guess if you work with the tech companies that aren't paying their way you might want to close your eyes, hum to yourself and hope the problems go away.

Huge bank debts have been put on the ordinary person to pay back.

I just can't see how it can last.
And yet some people don't want individual voters to have a say in their own futures.
Perhaps those clueless voters have had enough and want change.

Aineoil

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10208887148963666&set=a.2367877044015.2130476.1463125799&type=3&theater

This is scarier than Jenny Davies. This one is not fake.

BoJack Horseman

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Perhaps those clueless voters have had enough and want change.

Damn plebs...
How dare they!

Don't they know all the things that Tusk, Junker & Shulz are doing to make their lives better?

(though I can't quite put my finger on what those might be either...?)

ancapailldorcha

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

But is that going to solve any of the long term problems. The youth unemployment and the decline of previous prosperous regions.
We have had 10 years of this now in Europe and the problems only seem to be getting worse.

Yet we still have huge companies paying basically zero tax and people say let's carry on regardless.

I guess if you work with the tech companies that aren't paying their way you might want to close your eyes, hum to yourself and hope the problems go away.

Huge bank debts have been put on the ordinary person to pay back.

I just can't see how it can last.
And yet some people don't want individual voters to have a say in their own futures.
Perhaps those clueless voters have had enough and want change.

EU member states have discretion over their own tax and employment legislation. This isn't an EU issue, it's one with the relevant national government.

Clueless voters would have done well to research their ballot before casting it.

Sam Russell

cml387 wrote: »

Really?
Who would be on this commission? How could they be considered completely unbiased.No doubt both sides could find evidence of previous views of these paragons which would cast doubt on their impartiality.
And how on earth could they counteract an argument, for example, that the 350 million rescued from Brussels will be spent n the NHS. Would they say "No that's a lie, they'll row back on that immediately afterwards "?
Would they contradict treasury forecasts that predicted that Britain would be worse off outside the EU? On what basis could they do that?

Well, for a start they could answer the following:
1. What is this referendum about
2. What happens if we vote Remain? Things stay as they are.

Otherwise:
3. What happens if we vote Leave?
4 If we vote leave, how do we start the process and how long will it take?
5. What will happen to our EU rights if we leave, and if we remain?
6. How will a leave vote affect those UK citizens living/working in other EU countries now?
7. How will a leave vote affect EU citizens living/working in the UK?

etc. etc. etc.

This would be a commission made up of suitable, qualified international lawyers from both the UK and EU based with well earned reputations.

If claims were made, then the commission could refute or expand them to verify or refute their veracity.

Should have brought balance to the arguments because the Referendum Commission would not deal in sound bites or rash oversimplification but give a reasoned argument like a judges verdict in important legal cases.

The BBC are an entertainment broadcaster, not an arm of government.

Billy86

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Yet we still have huge companies paying basically zero tax and people say let's carry on regardless.

I guess if you work with the tech companies that aren't paying their way you might want to close your eyes, hum to yourself and hope the problems go away.

Huge bank debts have been put on the ordinary person to pay back.

I'm no economist so I might be missing something very obvious here, but how does leaving the EU change the UK's ability to dictate it's corporate tax rates? and how does leaving the EU make the bank debts disappear, or make the decision makers' at said banks change their outlook to suddenly become worried about the ordinary people they previously weren't?

Aineoil

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

.

Clueless voters would have done well to research their ballot before casting it.

Clueless and research in the one sentence.

topmanamillion

briany wrote: »

Many leaders have been elected on the basis of the people not being politically well-informed, or at least this was the accusation. Direct democracy is not perfect by any means, but at least politicians can say they left it to the will of the people rather than a closed vote among representatives for a decision that would affect everyone.

Democratically elected politicians are elected for that very reason i.e to represent the mandate from their people & make decisions on their behalf.
There was zero mandate from the British electorate for an EU referendum (UKIP got one seat from last year's general election!)
The EU referendum was expectedly hijacked by head the balls raving about foreigners and putting money into the NHS. 2 days after the result these claims have been admitted to be horse manure from the very people who said them.
That's poor leadership by Cameron to allow such a situation to develop all because he could not put down dissent in his own party and instead decided to take one hell of a gamble which has back fired spectacularly.

Its dead Jim

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, for a start they could answer the following:
1. What is this referendum about
2. What happens if we vote Remain? Things stay as they are.

Otherwise:
3. What happens if we vote Leave?
4 If we vote leave, how do we start the process and how long will it take?
5. What will happen to our EU rights if we leave, and if we remain?
6. How will a leave vote affect those UK citizens living/working in other EU countries now?
7. How will a leave vote affect EU citizens living/working in the UK?

etc. etc. etc.

This would be a commission made up of suitable, qualified international lawyers from both the UK and EU based with well earned reputations.

If claims were made, then the commission could refute or expand them to verify or refute their veracity.

Should have brought balance to the arguments because the Referendum Commission would not deal in sound bites or rash oversimplification but give a reasoned argument like a judges verdict in important legal cases.

The BBC are an entertainment broadcaster, not an arm of government.

It would have been seen as biased if it didn't agree with the leave campaign. You can provide all the information in the world to a person, they will still pick out what they like. See anti vaxxers and flat earthers.

The average person now knows better than the professionals.

ancapailldorcha

The petition to re-run the referendum is now approaching 3.5 million signatures.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

Mec27

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The petition to re-run the referendum is now approaching 3.5 million signatures.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

Its not going to happen,forget about it.

*Pro-EU here.

A Dub in Glasgo

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The petition to re-run the referendum is now approaching 3.5 million signatures.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

and was started last month by a Leave campaigner :pac: :pac:

Tigerandahalf

Billy86 wrote: »

I'm no economist so I might be missing something very obvious here, but how does leaving the EU change the UK's ability to dictate it's corporate tax rates? and how does leaving the EU make the bank debts disappear, or make the decision makers' at said banks change their outlook to suddenly become worried about the ordinary people they previously weren't?

Well if the UK leaves the EU is probably finished. That means the euro is finished and all those Irish, Spanish, Greek and Italian debts won't be paid back in euros but in their new local currency.

So it has consequences.

Why should a person who was 12 in 2007 now face into their working life 10 years later with huge debts to be paid off before they start off their working lives.
And sorry you can't hope to have guaranteed hours nor can you hope to own your home. Now suck it up and keep us in our nice pensions.

The unfairness of it all will eventually bring the system now.

BoJack Horseman

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The petition to re-run the referendum is now approaching 3.5 million signatures.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

They will get their wish.... I'm predicting the do-over vote will be late September.

People should check this for more detail on this petition to overturn democracy:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215.json

28 signatures from North Korea.... but only 1 from Eritrea.

BoJack Horseman

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

and was started last month by a Leave campaigner :pac: :pac:

Indeed... and the request only makes sense if actioned before last thursday!

We the undersigned call upon HM Government to implement a rule that if the remain or leave vote is less than 60% based a turnout less than 75% there should be another referendum.

J Mysterio

K-9 wrote: »

In fairness we in Ireland are a bit over exposed to referendums whereas they are a bit of a novelty in Britain.

Unthinkable though that in one of the oldest democracies in the world - voting on a massive issue - that they did not put forward an independent referendum commission.

ancapailldorcha

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

They will get their wish.... I'm predicting the do-over vote will be late September.

Why do you think there'll be a do-over? Cameron has resigned and now his potential successors are fighting over who'll get to drink from the poisoned chalice he's left in his place. I've always thought that the UK was a little too capitalist and small government for France and Germany's liking. Can't see them being overly keen on dragging this thing out, especially given Hollande's earlier remarks.

LiamoSail

Bit cynical wrote: »

On the point of wealth creators, it is by no means unanimous that they were in favour of Remain. The debate tended to be dominated by big banks and institutions that can destroy wealth as quickly as create it. James Dyson for one wanted to Leave but people like him did not get the amount of air time as the banks.

I was referring more to the wealth generating areas; London, Manchester, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Liverpool etc.

Billy86

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Well if the UK leaves the EU is probably finished. That means the euro is finished and all those Irish, Spanish, Greek and Italian debts won't be paid back in euros but in their new local currency.

So it has consequences.

Why should a person who was 12 in 2007 now face into their working life 10 years later with huge debts to be paid off before they start off their working lives.
And sorry you can't hope to have guaranteed hours nor can you hope to own your home. Now suck it up and keep us in our nice pensions.

The unfairness of it all will eventually bring the system now.

None of that answers how leaving the EU will change the UK's power to dictate their own corporate tax rates, though?

It also doesn't answer how the banks debts will suddenly disappear and/or how the people making the decisions in those banks' outlooks on the ordinary working folk will change?

It does bring up another question though, why do you feel the UK economy will prosper but the EU economy will collapse? I mean we're in a period of uncertainty right now so I'm not dismissing it, just asking what is the reasoning behind it?

And also how will leaving the EU change issues like minimum hour contracts or an individual's capacity to buy their own home?

J Mysterio

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The petition to re-run the referendum is now approaching 3.5 million signatures.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

It seems irrelevant though as supposedly IP addresseses are worldwide etc.

Bit cynical

topmanamillion wrote: »

There was zero mandate from the British electorate for an EU referendum

What? The Conservatives said in advance of the last election that should they win, they would hold a referendum on the subject of EU membership. They won the election and the promised referendum was held.