Brexit Referendum Superthread

CMOTDibbler

amacca wrote: »

Hang on a second, wasn't it the lowering of interest rates by european central bank which turned on the tap that allowed masses of cheap credit to flow into irish banks which they then lent out irresponsibly.

Wasn't that low interest rate primarily set to benefit the likes of Germany etc or am I missing something? It wasn't a great thing for us in an already overheating property market.

Granted it took the irish banks to lend it out irresponsibly but doesn't the whole financial machinery in europe bear at least some responsibility for not "overseeing" things properly after all didn't they provide at least the coke if not the hookers for the "party"

I think the analogy would be more like providing the house and not checking who was coming to the party.

It's very much locking the stable door after the horse has bolted, but it still had to be done.

Nody

Mr. Farage wrote: »

Go into any hospital's emergency ward on any given evening and tell me we are a first world country.

As someone who's just returned back from a business trip to Nigeria I can assure you that your statement are wrong on so many levels...

CMOTDibbler

long range shooter wrote: »

So that basically means they want control so it doesnt happen again?
It didnt effect Norway that much,maybe thats why?

Regulatory control yes. Not actual ownership control though. I really don't know how Norway was affected, but I suspect that there was a hit on profits at the least.

The contagion was global.

long range shooter

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Regulatory control yes. Not actual ownership control though. I really don't know how Norway was affected, but I suspect that there was a hit on profits at the least.

The contagion was global.

As i see from ECB they seem to have alot of power.

The ECB has the power to:
carry out supervisory reviews, including stress tests
conduct on-site inspections and investigations
grant or withdraw banking licences
authorise banks’ acquisitions of qualifying holdings
ensure compliance with EU prudential rules
set higher capital requirements (“buffers”) in order to counter any financial risks
impose corrective measures and sanctions

They seem to be in control allright?

smjm

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

It really deends on what the UK wants and what it is prepared to accept. But yes, you'd expect that they'd be able to do a better deal.

I agree - which is why I think all this talk of the EU dictating the terms of a trade deal is nonsense. Poland and other eastern European countries don't want their emigrants to have to come back from the UK. Nor does Spain or Portugal. Spain also doesn't want to lose British pensioners who bring money into the country. Nor do Spain, France etc want to do anything that might reduce UK visitor numbers. France and Germany don't want to reduce their exports to the UK. Ireland doesn't want any deal that would upset either exports to or imports from the UK ... etc. etc. etc.

I'm obviously not saying that the UK can get whatever agreement it wants with the EU - just saying that it's in a stronger position than some people think.

Wanderer78

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Because the banks went into meltdown when left to their own and national governments 'regulatory systems'.

I'm surprised that you don't know this. The EU had to bail out Ireland, the UK, France, Spain, Portugal, Greece and Italy because of rampant stupidity in banking regulation.

Iceland lost pretty much its entire banking system.

you are aware the largely privately owned banking system caused the vast amount of damage leading to the people of ireland and indeed a large portion of the world to bail the banks out!

the neoliberal system encourages, almost enforces weak or 'light touch' regulation in order to do its dastardly deeds!

iceland and most of the worlds banking system have been stolen from the people and is now in the hands some of the worst organisations on this planet. if we dont take back control of our monetary systems soon, we will all be in serious trouble very very soon!

Bob24

Nody wrote: »

As someone who's just returned back from a business trip to Nigeria I can assure you that your statement are wrong on so many levels...

On the other hand he didn't say the UK was a third world county (which Nigeria probably is). So not sure how a visit to Nigeria qualifies to comment on his post.

Nody

Bit cynical wrote: »

I think most likely at the end of the day the UK will opt to retain membership of the EEA while leaving the EU. It is true that there will still be some EU legislation they will need to abide by but the legislative burden will be reduced.

And the key issues they complain about would still apply and any exporting company still has to comply with every single EU rule which means in practice 99% of the rules gets implemented anyway.

Contribution to the EU budget will be reduced.

Actually it will be increased because they would pay in more than they do today net going by Switzerland/Norway's contributions per capita.

They will still have movement of people from the EU into Britain but will gain a certain amount of control.

Which will not stop those Polish coming over which was one high expectations going by the Brexit interviews.

They will be exempt from EU common foreign and defence policy and will in the long term gain by being able to do their own trade deals.

Seeing how the defence policy today is non existent or NATO nothing changed there. Common foreign policy means they lose all the existing trade deals; what trade deals have EU rejected that UK wanted to date? Sorry I simply don't see the benefit here in negotiating deals as a single state compared to being part of the biggest trade block doing the negotiations.

Billy86

Mr. Farage wrote: »

Go into any hospital's emergency ward on any given evening and tell me we are a first world country.

Go into hospital emergency wards in actual third world countries and tell me Ireland is a third world country.

Nody

Bob24 wrote: »

On the other hand he didn't say the UK was a third world county (which Nigeria probably is). So not sure how a visit to Nigeria qualifies to comment on his post.

Seeing how there are only first and third world definitions if it's not first world quality...

CMOTDibbler

long range shooter wrote: »

As i see from ECB they seem to have alot of power.

The ECB has the power to:
carry out supervisory reviews, including stress tests
conduct on-site inspections and investigations
grant or withdraw banking licences
authorise banks’ acquisitions of qualifying holdings
ensure compliance with EU prudential rules
set higher capital requirements (“buffers”) in order to counter any financial risks
impose corrective measures and sanctions

They seem to be in control allright?

What would you suggest? Allow the banks a free hand to ruin more economies and impverish their people? It's not as though it didn't happen before. Denmark had a similar banking collapse in the 90s as well.

I don't know about you, but I'm far happier that there's a system in place to make sure that banks don't go on a mad rampage again. Unfortunately when the pendulum swings one way and things go out of control, there's inevitably a swing in the other direction where control is almost stifling. It's not ideal, but neither is taking on billions of debt for decades.

Bob24

Nody wrote: »

Seeing how there are only first and third world definitions if it's not first world quality...

Russia is not first world quality either ... yet it is much better than third world/Nigeria.

Saying "not first world" certainly isn't the same as saying "third world", there is a whole spectrum.

Wanderer78

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

What would you suggest? Allow the banks a free hand to ruin more economies and impverish their people? It's not as though it didn't happen before. Denmark had a similar banking collapse in the 90s as well.

I don't know about you, but I'm far happier that there's a system in place to make sure that banks don't go on a mad rampage again. Unfortunately when the pendulum swings one way and things go out of control, there's inevitably a swing in the other direction where control is almost stifling. It's not ideal, but neither is taking on billions of debt for decades.

why dont we the people own the banks and/or just set up our own banks, and create our own money via these banks?

Bit cynical

Nody wrote: »

And the key issues they complain about would still apply and any exporting company still has to comply with every single EU rule which means in practice 99% of the rules gets implemented anyway.

Can you provide some figures to support that?

On the other point, sure some would complain but technically the referendum would be respected. They would be out of the EU. Remember that a lot of Leave voters would be in the middle of two extremes. On balance, they may have voted to leave but it does not mean they take the exact same position as Mr. Farage. And there's still the Remain voters who although they would respect the result of the referendum, want as little disruption as possible.

long range shooter

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

What would you suggest? Allow the banks a free hand to ruin more economies and impverish their people? It's not as though it didn't happen before. Denmark had a similar banking collapse as well.

I don't know about you, but I'm far happier that there's a system in place to make sure that banks don't go on a mad rampage again. Unfortunately when the pendulum swings one way and things go out of control, there's inevitably a swing in the other direction where control is almost stifling. It's not ideal, but neither is taking on billions of debt for decades.

You think that if everything is controlled by Brussels the world would be a better place?
Problem here is that EU is slowly taking over more and more control over every countries powers?whats next?
I prefer being and independent country with a finance crisis,rather than an EU confrolled one.
I dont want to be part of united states of Europe.

CMOTDibbler

Wanderer78 wrote: »

you are aware the largely privately owned banking system caused the vast amount of damage leading to the people of ireland and indeed a large portion of the world to bail the banks out!

the neoliberal system encourages, almost enforces weak or 'light touch' regulation in order to do its dastardly deeds!

iceland and most of the worlds banking system have been stolen from the people and is now in the hands some of the worst organisations on this planet. if we dont take back control of our monetary systems soon, we will all be in serious trouble very very soon!

I think I already said all that?

Except the last paragraph of course. I have no idea what that means.

Nody

long range shooter wrote: »

As i see from ECB they seem to have alot of power.

How about facts over your opinions?

The ECB has the power to:
carry out supervisory reviews, including stress tests

Which is also done by the central banks and is done to ensure the market can actually trust the stress tests not being influenced.

conduct on-site inspections and investigations

I can't recall it ever happened even at the worst of times and it would require local central bank and police to be allowed to execute it.

grant or withdraw banking licences

This is a national responsibility and only the nation can withdraw the license; see Sweden if you don't believe it.

authorise banks’ acquisitions of qualifying holdings

Nope sorry, local responsibility.

ensure compliance with EU prudential rules

National responsibility to ensure the laws are followed; not ECB.

set higher capital requirements (“buffers”) in order to counter any financial risks

Set as a base level a EU level and can be set higher by the nations (see Sweden once again setting higher than EU requirements).

impose corrective measures and sanctions

Done once again by national authorities.

They seem to be in control allright?

Nope; actually the national authorities are in control. For example using Sweden (as the closest nation to Norway being outside of the euro) the local authority (Financial inspection authority) is currently investing Nordea if their models are suitable and if they got enough capital reserves or not. This is 100% driven by Swedish authorities without any control from ECB and any issues identified and any related fines are set by, guess what, the Swedish authorities.

Sam Russell

Billy86 wrote: »

Without trying to be glib or whatnot, "being controlled by Brussels" as you like to put it (being an EU member as we put it) is why Ireland is not a second world country anymore.

Ireland was never a 'second world' country.

'First World' countries were those who supported the west (UK,USA, Nato, etc.). Second world countries were those that supported the USSR and the Warsaw Pact. The rest were 'third world' countries. It had nothing to do with wealth.

So Ireland was a 'Third World' country because they were neutral - like Switzerland and Sweden.

However, being a member of the EU has increased our GDP by 5 times (500%) per capita.

K-9

long range shooter wrote: »

Maybe,i am pretty sure the banks can manage that without EUs help.
And why would EU suggest this in the first place?

The problem was banks bringing down countries economies, our own in particular, and other member countries having to contribute tax payer money to bail out other countries.

So when European tax payer money is on the line people want banks to take on greater responsibility naturally enough.

CMOTDibbler

long range shooter wrote: »

You think that if everything is controlled by Brussels the world would be a better place?
Problem here is that EU is slowly taking over more and more control over every countries powers?whats next?
I prefer being and independent country with a finance crisis,rarher r than an EU confrolled one.
I dont want to be part of united states of Europe.

That's an ideological view that I don't subscribe to. What is independence any more? And why is it a good thing?

long range shooter

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

That's an ideological view that I don't subscribe to. What is independence any more? And why is it a good thing?

Cause it seems like it worked before EU?
Why do we need the EU?
You think Europe is not going to survive without EU?
The problem with EU is that the control is leaning nore and more towards Brussels.
Its not a trade union as it used to be,its gone way beyond that now.

Wanderer78

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I think I already said all that?

Except the last paragraph of course. I have no idea what that means.

our banking and monetary systems have been basically linched from us, rendering our countries more or less puppet states. this is the most serious problem in my opinion of the whole eu project. if this element of the project cannot be rectified, you may forget about the whole eu project as it will probably collapse catastrophically, which is bad news in my world.

smjm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

why dont we the people own the banks and/or just set up our own banks, and create our own money via these banks?

Because 'we, the people' are too stupid to count, apparently!

You can read that sentence in one of two ways, but the 'elite' would probably mean both!

long range shooter

K-9 wrote: »

The problem was banks bringing down countries economies, our own in particular, and other member countries having to contribute tax payer money to bail out other countries.

So when European tax payer money is on the line people want banks to take on greater responsibility naturally enough.

The ECB has the power to:
carry out supervisory reviews, including stress tests
conduct on-site inspections and investigations
grant or withdraw banking licences
authorise banks’ acquisitions of qualifying holdings
ensure compliance with EU prudential rules
set higher capital requirements (“buffers”) in order to counter any financial risks
impose corrective measures and sanctions

seems like control to me

CMOTDibbler

long range shooter wrote: »

Cause it seems like it worked before EU?
Why do we need the EU?
You think Europe is not going to survive without EU?

No. How can individual countries in Europe survive against the might of the US and China? Or even Russia? Look how Russia is trying to mop up all the little satellite states that used to be in the USSR. Imagine if Latvia or Estonia weren't in the EU. How long would they last as entities?

smjm

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

That's an ideological view that I don't subscribe to. What is independence any more? And why is it a good thing?

That's a good argument for considering the EU as parochial as well.

long range shooter

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

No. How can individual countries in Europe survive against the might of the US and China? Or even Russia? Look how Russia is trying to mop up all the little satellite states that used to be in the USSR. Imagine if Latvia or Estonia weren't in the EU. How long would they last as entities?

thats because they never where an independent country like we are.
But they are slowly gaining it.
they where controlled by Moscow,does that remind you of Brussels?
And the trade between countries have always excisted and always will,with or without EU.

CMOTDibbler

long range shooter wrote: »

The ECB has the power to:
carry out supervisory reviews, including stress tests
conduct on-site inspections and investigations
grant or withdraw banking licences
authorise banks’ acquisitions of qualifying holdings
ensure compliance with EU prudential rules
set higher capital requirements (“buffers”) in order to counter any financial risks
impose corrective measures and sanctions

seems like control to me

You've found somehing and are parrotting it without understanding it. The ECB makes sure banks operate within strict guidelines to protect the taxpayers of Europe. You're missing that point. Most of the ECB work with banks is carried out locally. So in Ireland, the Central Bank does the actual work to the standard required.

CMOTDibbler

smjm wrote: »

That's a good argument for considering the EU as parochial as well.

Yep. I'm aware

Wanderer78

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

You've found somehing and are parrotting it without understanding it. The ECB makes sure banks operate within strict guidelines to protect the taxpayers of Europe. You're missing that point. Most of the ECB work with banks is carried out locally. So in Ireland, the Central Bank does the actual work to the standard required.

not at all, the ecb was created to 'facilitate' the banks, so the governments of europe can errr emm 'buy' euros from the banks!