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Brexit Referendum Superthread

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    #2822
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,499 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Enzokk wrote: »
    The biggest unknown is how the EU will negotiate with the UK. Will it be all rosy as those that wanted to leave tells the people and the EU will cave in to the demands of the 5th...sorry 6th largest economy in the world? Or will it play hardball like they did with a euro currency country, Greece, who's collapse could have triggered the end of the euro? I bet a lot of EU politicians are a little tired of UKIP MEPs and the negotiations will not be easy for the UK.

    i think the eu is already flexing its muscles regarding these negotiations. damn interesting time for us all but very worrying as well


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    #2823
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    long range shooter wrote: »
    Yes and thats when things started to go bad

    For some countries, not others. The common denominator there is Government, not the Euro itself. Those opposed to the Euro will just blame the Euro naturally enough and ignore the countries who did manage their economies well. It isn't as if Iceland's crash was caused by the Euro after all

    The problem was when the politicians set up the bloody thing there wasn't really any planning for a crisis, typical politicians only act when they have to.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #2824
    long range shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,493 ✭✭✭long range shooter


    Suryavarman wrote: »
    You need to brush up on your knowledge of the Middle East. There is a war being waged against ISIS in both Iraq and Syria. This war has come at immense human cost with millions of people displaced. Entire villages and towns have been destroyed.

    That you think people are risking their lives for "no reason" is stunning.

    I'm pretty sure this discussion is off topic so I won't be wasting my time replying to you again.

    My knowledge is probably way better than yours mate?
    have you ever picked up refugees in the meditarenean sea?
    well i have on two occations,some alive some dont.
    And if you want to look at how we class refugess you better go into UNs page on refugees.

    Person who is outside their country of citizenship because they have well-founded grounds for fear of persecution because of their race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, and is unable to obtain sanctuary from their home country or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail themselves of the protection of that country.

    Now please tell me what country in Africa that have these gounds.
    Probably alot,do we have room for all in Europe,no,so if you want them,please take them and pay for them.


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    #2825
    long range shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,493 ✭✭✭long range shooter


    K-9 wrote: »
    For some countries, not others. The common denominator there is Government, not the Euro itself. Those opposed to the Euro will just blame the Euro naturally enough and ignore the countries who did manage their economies well. It isn't as if Iceland's crash was caused by the Euro after all

    The problem was when the politicians set up the bloody thing there wasn't really any planning for a crisis, typical politicians only act when they have to.

    Thats what worries me,if you dont trust your politicians in your own country,you think its better if we trust them in Brussels instead.
    Think their all the same.


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    #2826
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,499 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    K-9 wrote: »
    For some countries, not others. The common denominator there is Government, not the Euro itself. Those opposed to the Euro will just blame the Euro naturally enough and ignore the countries who did manage their economies well. It isn't as if Iceland's crash was caused by the Euro after all

    The problem was when the politicians set up the bloody thing there wasn't really any planning for a crisis, typical politicians only act when they have to.

    varoufakis believes the whole eu system wasnt designed with a major crisis like 2008 in mind. we bloody know now. its a very unstable design


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    #2827
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    varoufakis believes the whole eu system wasnt designed with a major crisis like 2008 in mind. we bloody know now. its a very unstable design

    They were warned about this at the start too!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #2828
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,499 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    K-9 wrote: »
    They were warned about this at the start too!

    and the disturbing thing is, im not convinced theyve learned their lesson. im very very worried about this. the arrogance and ignorance being displaced across europe not only by our own politicians is incredible.


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    #2829
    smjm
    Registered Users Posts: 407 ✭✭smjm


    'Tata Steel near deal to save Port Talbot plant despite Brexit vote'

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/26/tata-steel-near-deal-to-save-port-talbot-plant-despite-brexit

    Hopefully a sign that cool-headed business pragmatism will triumph over hot-headed bureaucratic idealism?


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    #2830
    whatever_
    Registered Users Posts: 182 ✭✭whatever_


    Polo_Mint wrote: »
    whatever_ wrote: »
    Even in an amicable divorce, there is a bit of drama.

    Labour need to re-engage with their electorate. The Conservative's need a new Leader. The political parties need to readjust to the new reality.

    There has been some instability in the markets (as expected) and doubtless there will be more, but none of the massive crashes that we used to see twenty years ago.

    Junket has been put back in his box. He really needs to stop trying to tell us what to do.

    The SNP have been put back in their box by the EU. I don't see any enthusiasm in Europe to take on their 12Bn pounds a year budget deficit. Economically, English people have no problem with them leaving - politically it would be a bit embarrassing.

    It's all good really. Compare this with the struggles for Independence elsewhere - this one has been supported by the majority of the people and very little blood has been shed.

    I know you are putting up a brave face saying " Sure it will be grand"

    Its really not

    Well if you looked back to around page 30 of this thread, you would see me sketching out scenarios around devaluation, tariffs and trade which were broadly in line with what has happened. I see overreaction amongst politicians, but the markets are responding in a fairly stable way.

    So I can see no downside to any of this. Just to clarify :

    I see a weaker pound as being good for UK manufacturing. I see finance jobs moving to Frankfurt (and hopefully Dublin) as a good thing. Lower commercial rents in London are to be welcomed (at the moment ordinary businesses cannot afford the rents associated with having an office in the capital). The imbalance in the British economy caused by an overactive financial sector and a consequently overvalued pound has been bad for, particularly, the areas that voted for Brexit (including the near 40% in Scotland).

    I see the political realignments being good for British politics. I would like to see an electable Labour Party and this seems possible now.

    I also see countries lining up to do trade deals with us, but you probably don't if you get your information from RTE, because in typical fashion, they are not reporting this.


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    #2831
    Inquitus
    Registered Users Posts: 13,761 ✭✭✭✭Inquitus


    https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/747178341514489856

    With accompanying Telegraph article, including a fair bit of backpedaling, not about immigration.....
    It is said that those who voted Leave were mainly driven by anxieties about immigration. I do not believe that is so. After meeting thousands of people in the course of the campaign, I can tell you that the number one issue was control – a sense that British democracy was being undermined by the EU system, and that we should restore to the people that vital power: to kick out their rulers at elections, and to choose new ones.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/i-cannot-stress-too-much-that-britain-is-part-of-europe--and-alw/


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    #2832
    embraer170
    Registered Users Posts: 2,432 ✭✭✭embraer170


    whatever_ wrote: »
    I also see countries lining up to do trade deals with us, but you probably don't if you get your information from RTE, because in typical fashion, they are not reporting this.

    Any links to reports of countries lining up to do trade deals with the UK?


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    #2833
    smjm
    Registered Users Posts: 407 ✭✭smjm


    Inquitus wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/747178341514489856
    A fuller report on what Boris Johnson said: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/boris-johnson-breaks-silence-to-set-out-leadership-platform

    (Guardian summary of the Telegraph article linked above)


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    #2834
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    and the disturbing thing is, im not convinced theyve learned their lesson. im very very worried about this. the arrogance and ignorance being displaced across europe not only by our own politicians is incredible.

    Well some changes have come in but it isn't just an EU thing, many have the same worries in the US. When people start saying we'll never have another financial crisis like last time, that's when to start worrying!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #2835
    long range shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,493 ✭✭✭long range shooter


    embraer170 wrote: »
    Any links to reports of countries lining up to do trade deals with the UK?

    US is allready in the talks
    http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/brexit-us-britain-trade-deal-224776


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    #2836
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Inquitus wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/747178341514489856

    With accompanying Telegraph article, including a fair bit of backpedaling, not about immigration.....



    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/i-cannot-stress-too-much-that-britain-is-part-of-europe--and-alw/

    If I was a leave voter I'd be underwhelmed by that, to say the least.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #2837
    whatever_
    Registered Users Posts: 182 ✭✭whatever_


    embraer170 wrote: »
    whatever_ wrote: »
    I also see countries lining up to do trade deals with us, but you probably don't if you get your information from RTE, because in typical fashion, they are not reporting this.

    Any links to reports of countries lining up to do trade deals with the UK?

    This after three days :

    http://m.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11663367
    http://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/683117/US-and-Canada-lead-promises-to-maintain-trade-relations-with-Britain-outside-the-EU

    and bear in mind, after forty years or so, this is how far the EU has got on trade deals:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_free_trade_agreements

    Not a pretty picture. When the EU sit down to do a trade deal, typically 20 or so of the 28 are only concerned with protecting their own domestic industries. The EU is a dysfunctional and pointless organisation that is well past its sell by date.


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    #2838
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    Enzokk wrote: »
    He isn't asking for much from the EU, seems that free trade is what he wants. I guess if that was the only real campaign issue he is in the clear for a favourable negotiation with Brussels.

    Free trade won't come without free movement. What he has to do is sell that to those who voted leave on the premise that immigration would be severely reduced. Will he be able to?

    There are no guarantees he will get what he wants. The EU nations know he is negotiating from a position of weakness and can hold out on a deal until the last minute to get extreme concessions from the UK.

    The real prize here is the financial industry in the City. Other European capitals have looked with jealousy at this massive low regulation money spinner that conducts the transactions of their currency. If the British banking passport is not revoked then there will be major give in another area - probably free movement, fishing and net contributions


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    #2839
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    long range shooter wrote: »
    US is allready in the talks
    http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/brexit-us-britain-trade-deal-224776

    Don't think anybody said trade deals wouldn't happen, they are a necessity. Problem is the US/EU trade deal will be a big reference point in these talks, as Obama hinted the deal with the worlds largest trading bloc will take preference.

    Size matters gentlemen!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #2840
    embraer170
    Registered Users Posts: 2,432 ✭✭✭embraer170


    long range shooter wrote: »
    US is allready in the talks
    http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/brexit-us-britain-trade-deal-224776

    All I see is:
    Obama stands by 'back of the queue' Brexit warning
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/23/eu-referendum-what-the-world-is-saying---britains-historic-decis/

    China laughs at Britain's hope to negotiate quick free trade deal following Brexit
    http://shanghaiist.com/2016/06/24/china_brexit_response.php

    "China Daily reports an estimate doing the rounds is that it will require 500 British negotiators and 10 years before any such deal could materialize, "

    I am sure trade deals will happen but they won't be as easy or quick as the Leave campaign has promised.


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    #2841
    long range shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,493 ✭✭✭long range shooter


    K-9 wrote: »
    Don't think anybody said trade deals wouldn't happen, they are a necessity. Problem is the US/EU trade deal will be a big reference point in these talks, as Obama hinted the deal with the worlds largest trading bloc will take preference.

    Size matters gentlemen!

    Absolutely,and not only US but China and Russia too.


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    #2842
    long range shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,493 ✭✭✭long range shooter


    embraer170 wrote: »
    All I see is:
    Obama stands by 'back of the queue' Brexit warning
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/23/eu-referendum-what-the-world-is-saying---britains-historic-decis/

    China laughs at Britain's hope to negotiate quick free trade deal following Brexit
    http://shanghaiist.com/2016/06/24/china_brexit_response.php

    "China Daily reports an estimate doing the rounds is that it will require 500 British negotiators and 10 years before any such deal could materialize, "

    I am sure trade deals will happen but they won't be as easy or quick as the Leave campaign has promised.

    China says alot of things,they threatened Norway to,but had to realise they had something they needed and gave in in the end.


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    #2843
    whatever_
    Registered Users Posts: 182 ✭✭whatever_


    embraer170 wrote: »
    long range shooter wrote: »
    US is allready in the talks
    http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/brexit-us-britain-trade-deal-224776

    All I see is:
    Obama stands by 'back of the queue' Brexit warning
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/23/eu-referendum-what-the-world-is-saying---britains-historic-decis/

    China laughs at Britain's hope to negotiate quick free trade deal following Brexit
    http://shanghaiist.com/2016/06/24/china_brexit_response.php

    "China Daily reports an estimate doing the rounds is that it will require 500 British negotiators and 10 years before any such deal could materialize, "

    I am sure trade deals will happen but they won't be as easy or quick as the Leave campaign has promised.
    This after three days :

    http://m.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11663367
    http://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/683117/US-and-Canada-lead-promises-to-maintain-trade-relations-with-Britain-outside-the-EU

    and bear in mind, after forty years or so, this is how far the EU has got on trade deals:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_free_trade_agreements

    Not a pretty picture. When the EU sit down to do a trade deal, typically 20 or so of the 28 are only concerned with protecting their own domestic industries. The EU is a dysfunctional and pointless organisation that is well past its sell by date.





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    #2844
    Redbishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,354 ✭✭✭Redbishop


    whatever_ wrote: »
    This after three days :

    http://m.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11663367
    http://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/683117/US-and-Canada-lead-promises-to-maintain-trade-relations-with-Britain-outside-the-EU

    and bear in mind, after forty years or so, this is how far the EU has got on trade deals:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_free_trade_agreements

    Not a pretty picture. When the EU sit down to do a trade deal, typically 20 or so of the 28 are only concerned with protecting their own domestic industries. The EU is a dysfunctional and pointless organisation that is well past its sell by date.




    Hmmm. Not sure of your point really.
    Unless the EU splits totally then Britain is in for a rude awakening, deals don't take place to solve others problems, only EU ones.


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    #2845
    long range shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,493 ✭✭✭long range shooter


    Redbishop wrote: »
    Hmmm. Not sure of your point really.
    Unless the EU splits totally then Britain is in for a rude awakening, deals don't take place to solve others problems, only EU ones.

    Then howcome many others are looking to get out now then.
    Holland,Sweden,Denmark,Finland and Italy.
    Are they not happy in the EU?


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    #2846
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    whatever_ wrote: »
    This after three days :

    http://m.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11663367
    http://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/683117/US-and-Canada-lead-promises-to-maintain-trade-relations-with-Britain-outside-the-EU

    and bear in mind, after forty years or so, this is how far the EU has got on trade deals:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_free_trade_agreements

    Not a pretty picture. When the EU sit down to do a trade deal, typically 20 or so of the 28 are only concerned with protecting their own domestic industries. The EU is a dysfunctional and pointless organisation that is well past its sell by date.




    For comparison, look how far the USA has gotten. Doesn't the map look familiar?

    Negotiating free trade deals are extremely difficult.

    I don't get the jibe that the EU is past its sell by date, it has been the most important peace project ever constructed - no war within its borders in 70 years. Its something that's taken for granted these days, but should never be forgotten.


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    #2847
    long range shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,493 ✭✭✭long range shooter


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    For comparison, look how far the USA has gotten. Doesn't the map look familiar?

    Negotiating free trade deals are extremely difficult.

    I don't get the jibe that the EU is past its sell by date, it has been the most important peace project ever constructed - no war within its borders in 70 years. Its something that's taken for granted these days, but should never be forgotten.

    And EU isnt part of any wars today outside its borders?


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    #2848
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    whatever_ wrote: »
    This after three days :

    http://m.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11663367
    http://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/683117/US-and-Canada-lead-promises-to-maintain-trade-relations-with-Britain-outside-the-EU

    and bear in mind, after forty years or so, this is how far the EU has got on trade deals:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_free_trade_agreements

    Not a pretty picture. When the EU sit down to do a trade deal, typically 20 or so of the 28 are only concerned with protecting their own domestic industries. The EU is a dysfunctional and pointless organisation that is well past its sell by date.




    So apparently everything is absolutely rosey in Britain and the EU is doomed, seems fair analysis.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #2849
    Its dead Jim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 284 ✭✭Its dead Jim


    Inquitus wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/747178341514489856

    With accompanying Telegraph article, including a fair bit of backpedaling, not about immigration.....



    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/i-cannot-stress-too-much-that-britain-is-part-of-europe--and-alw/

    They wanted control over immigration

    It's like the American civil war, it wasn't about slavery, it was about states having the right to keep slavery.


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    #2850
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    People arguing against having a referendum on such issue seem anti-democratic. For one, looking to the public on issues of HOW they want to be governed is the only way it should be done. An elected government should not be able to change how the country is run. That's why we have a constitution for example.


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    #2851
    Conas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭Conas


    K-9 wrote: »
    Well some changes have come in but it isn't just an EU thing, many have the same worries in the US. When people start saying we'll never have another financial crisis like last time, that's when to start worrying!

    I disagree with the term 'financial crisis', because you can't compare a financial crisis today, too a one 100 or 150 years ago. Back then a financial crisis could lead to you not being able to feed you, and your family. Emigration in which families never saw each for the rest of their lifetimes.
    In today's world a financial crisis is when people lose some, if not all the wealth they have hoarded. Instead of not being able to buy a 2016 Ford Focus, a person may settle for a 2006 Ford Focus. Instead of an Xbox One, you may settle for an Xbox 360. That's what people nowadays consider a 'crisis', Most people in this country would never get into financial crisis, if they got rid of their 'keeping up with the joneses', mindset.
    In reality we have never had it so easy, in comparison to what it was like in the 1800s, and early 1900s.

    When you listen to the Remain arguments for staying. It was all scaremongering over 'Money'. 'Hundreds of thousands of jobs could be lost, Billions of pounds to the UK economy', they shouted.
    It goes to show you how truly money obsessed, and disgustingly selfish people in European and Western nations have become.


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