Brexit Referendum Superthread

LiamoSail

Conas wrote: »

All these things are happening anyway. So nobody will be facing into anything new. Nothing is ever inevitable. How many billions of pounds did the British goverment flush down the toilet fighting stupid wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? They could easily have invested that money into housing, healthcare etc. There always seems to be a shortage of money for the things mentioned above, but for war, an endless supply of credit is always available.
I'm not smoking anything, I just took off my rose tinted glasses a long time ago.

They do waste money but you're missing the point. Brexit means less money will be spent on these services. Irrespective of the current level of funding, Brexit reduces it further.

long range shooter

djpbarry wrote: »

I don't know.

What I do know is that the EU is not, nor has it ever been, at war with anyone.

EU is as much at war against terrorism as any other country effected by it.
As far as i know,there have been 3 terrorist attacks within the EU allready.
And memberrstates are at war outside EUs borders to prevent it from happening again.

Conas

djpbarry wrote: »

What I do know is that the EU is not, nor has it ever been, at war with anyone.

The war in Afghanistan, Iraq, the destruction of Libya in 2011. European nations were all heavily involved as part of NATO.

K-9

Conas wrote: »

You said 'Any boot in the balls for the world's richest will trickle down to the world's poorest. The people who create jobs and provide investment need money to do it'.

Just as with Reagan's trickle down policies, nothing actually trickled down at all. I was just making a comparison too it, because I think what you said won't happen. Just as it didn't in the 1980s.

There's a difference between trickle down economics resulting in increased wealth and wages for those further down (plenty of evidence suggests it doesn't) to the point made today, that a hit to the "elite" will mean less investment in business.

Suryavarman

Conas wrote: »

The war in Afghanistan, Iraq, the destruction of Libya in 2011. European nations were all heavily involved as part of NATO.

Which in no way contradicts what Djpbarry said

LiamoSail

There's a lot of discussion about the economic implications, but the social too are now beginning to surface with the increase in hate crimes. According to the Police Chiefs Council reports online are up 57% since Thursday. Since winning the election, these people obviously feel they can act with impunity

Suryavarman

Conas wrote: »

Money can be used by the goverment as a form of psychological control, because they know well money is the public's biggest obsession and biggest fear.
Yes, according to Bloomberg, Brexit cost 400 of the 'world's richest' £127 billion, and us ordinary people should feel bad, because the greedy fat cats lost pocket change, because of this referendum. The same pigs who caused the carnage of 2008. It's about time they got a kick in the teeth. The only people who'll be damaged because of Brexit will be the top 1%.

Also considering the minimum wage in the UK is £7.20 for over 25s. A steel worker in Wales who works a 40 hour week, should by law be coming away with at least £250 a week. So your figure of £60 a week is utterly false.

And anyone that consumes goods imported from the EU, anyone that works for a company that exports to the EU, anyone living in an area that receives EU funding, anyone that ever wanted to live in the EU and anyone that relies on the Government services that will be cut to deal with the increased deficit resulting from Brexit.

Conas

awec wrote: »

So to clarify, you think the people who create jobs and investment (and ultimately they do) will see huge losses in wealth, but the working man and woman at the bottom of the ladder isn't going to feel it?

Fantasy world stuff. Your Reagan comparison is chalk and cheese and irrelevant here.

People can always get a low paying job, as there is always plenty of those available. Even during the recession here, you could always get a job in a local shop, or stocking the shelves in a supermarket. Anyone who works is entitled to at least the minimum wage, so no one is going home with a bad salary. I don't share the doomsday narrative being pushed on this thread.
Even if things do get bad in Britain, just as it did in 2008. The world goes on, things always improve in time anyway.
As I alluded to earlier, people are well fed, well clothed, never been living as longer.
Streets aren't full with the sick and dying, clothes hanging off, house's falling down, road's in ruins. We all have it too handy in today's world.

Conas

Conas wrote: »

People can always get a low paying job, as there is always plenty of those available. Even during the recession here, you could always get a job in a local shop, or stocking the shelves in a supermarket. Anyone who works is entitled to at least the minimum wage, so no one is going home with a bad salary. I don't share the doomsday narrative being pushed on this thread.
Even if things do get bad in Britain, just as it did in 2008. The world goes on, things always improve in time anyway.
As I alluded to earlier, people are well fed, well clothed, never been living as longer.
Streets aren't full with the sick and dying, clothes hanging off, house's falling down, road's in ruins. We all have it too handy in today's world.

Is this a joke?

Suryavarman

Conas wrote: »

People can always get a low paying job, as there is always plenty of those available. Even during the recession here, you could always get a job in a local shop, or stocking the shelves in a supermarket. Anyone who works is entitled to at least the minimum wage, so no one is going home with a bad salary. I don't share the doomsday narrative being pushed on this thread.
Even if things do get bad in Britain, just as it did in 2008. The world goes on, things always improve in time anyway.
As I alluded to earlier, people are well fed, well clothed, never been living as longer.
Streets aren't full with the sick and dying, clothes hanging off, house's falling down, road's in ruins. We all have it too handy in today's world.

Good point. Who needs well paid jobs when we can just go work at Asda instead?

anothernight

Conas wrote: »

Even during the recession here, you could always get a job in a local shop, or stocking the shelves in a supermarket.

Your alternate reality sounds much nicer than the real world.

FWIW, Cameron is getting grilled at the moment.

Very against a second referendum.

Patser

We're approaching Waterford Whispers level of satire here, but it's genuine.

Gibraltar looking to join Scotland (unify? Scotaltar? Gibland?) if they can stay in EU. Northern Ireland also in frame. ( Norn Gibotland?)

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36639770

CMOTDibbler

Patser wrote: »

We're approaching Waterford Whispers level of satire here, but it's genuine.

Gibraltar looking to join Scotland (unify? Scotaltar? Gibland?) if they can stay in EU. Northern Ireland also in frame. ( Norn Gibotland?)

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36639770

With the Isle of Man tacked on.

Expensive business though. They'd have to join the Euro I'd imagine and put the infrastructure in place.

LiamoSail

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

With the Isle of Man tacked on.

Expensive business though. They'd have to join the Euro I'd imagine and put the infrastructure in place.

From a Scottish perspective, the cost of independence is likely to be pittance in comparison to what the cost of subsidising England and Wales, during a recession and without the EU support, would be

Billy86

Conas wrote: »

You said 'Any boot in the balls for the world's richest will trickle down to the world's poorest. The people who create jobs and provide investment need money to do it'.

Just as with Reagan's trickle down policies, nothing actually trickled down at all. I was just making a comparison too it, because I think what you said won't happen. Just as it didn't in the 1980s.

Trickle down economics was a terrible nonsense that played a very large role in increasing wealth disparity to the extent we have seen in recent decades. It's such a farce we shouldn't even have to begin explaining where - the whole thing is a disaster created to concentrate wealth to the top.

But what you are claiming is entirely false - to say nothing trickled down at all. If that were the case, when someone's business had 30 people and the capacity to take on 20 more and grow exponentially... they would have refused to have done so. No businesses would have grown at all in the last several decades... and we all know that is anything but the case.

Regardless of someone's motivations, ethics or wealth... if they own a business that makes $10mn a year, they can obviously take on more staff than if that business makes $300k a year. Companies taking in less money can't hire as many people, and if this occurs it leads to a spike in unemployment, and if that gets bad enough there is not the money there to pay the unemployed their welfare (or as much welfare) and it likely leads in to tax increases too, which can lead to less disposable income for those in jobs, which can mean less spending and in turn less money going into that business from the start of this paragraph, which means less staff can be supported, which means even more people unemployed, which means...

It's an extremely vicious cycle that it can turn into basically, and believe me - those 'job/wealth creators' (hate the term myself) will find other, worse ways to squeeze the books and exacerbate this problem if it means keeping their own pockets intact. And with the intelligence, financial clout, established networks and connections, and teams of lawyers/lobbyists/etc that they can employee to do so, that will be the case (the working/middle classes feeling the squeeze) long before the richest of the rich going broke, financially crippled, or even hurt much in the pockets at all.

Suryavarman

BBC are reporting that EU leaders are refusing to open informal talks with the UK until they trigger Article 50.

CMOTDibbler

Suryavarman wrote: »

BBC are reporting that EU leaders are refusing to open informal talks with the UK until they trigger Article 50.

Well it's Boris who wants to have his cake and eat it. The Germans aren't too pleased about this approach:

One well-placed German source said: “The political parties, the political leaders, the commentators and a big, big majority of the people want this process to start yesterday.
“They are absolutely determined – ‘you decided to go, now get out’. They are absolutely pissed about Cameron. They see him as egocentric and egomanic. He tried to a play a poker game, and lost. The issue wasn’t about the EU, it was to save his butt. It was mismanaged and not very clever.
“They are putting pressure on Angela Merkel, who is a little more understanding of the British position, but she can’t afford to be the only supporter of Mr Cameron.”

jelutong

What impact will it have on goods travelling to and from the Continent via Britain?
Taxes, duty that sort of thing.

Conas

Suryavarman wrote: »

Good point. Who needs well paid jobs when we can just go work at Asda instead?

Well if you lose or can't find a high paying job. There is plenty of work in the supermarkets, take-away's, McDonald's etc.

What I'm saying is people in Britain can have an income if they want one working in those professions. If the big corporations decide not to invest, because of Brexit. It's pretty much a double edged sword. They will suffer just as much as the people. Which will lead to a coming together to find common ground, and it's business as usual again.
No economic crisis in history has ever lasted, they all run out of steam after a while, and things pick up again.

Sam Russell

jelutong wrote: »

What impact will it have on goods travelling to and from the Continent via Britain?
Taxes, duty that sort of thing.

For unbroken journeys - none. The haulage will revert to TIR regime customs sealed trucks.

However, it might increase the use of Rosslare - Cherbourg route to save the trouble.

LiamoSail

Sam Russell wrote: »

For unbroken journeys - none. The haulage will revert to TIR regime customs sealed trucks.

However, it might increase the use of Rosslare - Cherbourg route to save the trouble.

Irish ferries have started Dublin/France. P&O, Sea Truck and probably Stena all have the tonnage to reduce sailings to Britain and start a French run if required.

At present, trucks bound for the continent are more economical driving across Britain though afaik

CMOTDibbler

Conas wrote: »

Well if you lose or can't find a high paying job. There is plenty of work in the supermarkets, take-away's, McDonald's etc.

There just isn't. That's what unemployment means. That there are no jobs available for job seekers. You seem to be talking about full employment where there are unemployed but at the most minimum level.

LiamoSail

Conas wrote: »

Well if you lose or can't find a high paying job. There is plenty of work in the supermarkets, take-away's, McDonald's etc.

What I'm saying is people in Britain can have an income if they want one working in those professions. If the big corporations decide not to invest, because of Brexit. It's pretty much a double edged sword. They will suffer just as much as the people. Which will lead to a coming together to find common ground, and it's business as usual again.
No economic crisis in history has ever lasted, they all run out of steam after a while, and things pick up again.

You must have been in the same economics class as Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage, Gerry Adams and Paul Murphy.

mountaintop

I am greatly disappointed the U.K voted to leave the European Union, but I won't comment on that now. What I want to comment on are the views of some Irish in Britain. I heard on the Joe Duffy show today an Irish man who has lived in England for 20 years and who voted for Brexit. One of the reasons he gave for this was that 'we want our sovereignty back'. Another Irish in Britain caller, a female, said her two English born sons were unable to get employment because immigrants were taking 'their' jobs. I could go on with plenty of other examples including conversations I've had with relatives and other Irish in Britain.
What I want to say is that I am absolutely disgusted with these comments. As an Irish person who worked in Britain during the 1980's and 90's I feel an affinity with immigrants. I know what it's like to be Irish in Britain during the bad times. Have the Irish in Britain forgotten what this was like? Have they forgotten that they are immigrants themselves? One Irish man when asked this very question during the week on the Sean O'Rourke programme I think it was, answered, 'oh no, we're not immigrants, sure not at all'. Unbelievable. Where did he get that from?
Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed working in England and on the whole found the English to be fair and tolerant. But this (latest?) trend among the Irish in Britain (not them all I hope) has me baffled. I would like to ask the Irish man who voted for Brexit because he wanted to get his sovereignty back what, for example, Jeremy Clarkson would say to him. Clarkson might well tell him, get lost Paddy, go back to Ireland for your sovereignty, this is England, and you are neither English or British. And for the first time in my life, though not in those words, I would have to agree with him.

Patser

This article about how Scotland's Nicola Sturgeon has stood out so well is bang on. While Cameron pretty much quit and hid, Johnson went off to play cricket and Corbyn managed to get into an internal party civil war, Sturgeon called an emergency cabinet meeting, clearly laid out her ambitions for Scotland, started looking for ways to block Brexit, has organised a delegation to Brussels to discuss alternatives and today is talking with Gibraltar and Ireland about other alternatives.

Meanwhile Boris wrote an article for the Telegraph which has roundly been dismissed by today's events and the EU.


Article about Sturgeon

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36644777

Tweet about Sturgeon talking with Ireland about options.

https://mobile.twitter.com/MichealLehane/status/747460217332465664

awec

This post has been deleted.

Timberrrrrrrr

Standards and poor have stripped the UK of its AAA rating down to AA

CMOTDibbler

awec wrote: »

Your posts are actually insane.

When people don't have jobs, people have less money. When people have less money they spend less money in shops. When shops make less money they can afford less staff. When shops reduce staff this adds to the unemployment. When unemployment goes up government income goes down. When government income goes down it becomes more difficult to pay out the dole. It is a vicious circle. Jobs are not magically created, McDonald's and Asda don't just randomly hire staff.

"If there are no good jobs they can just work in McDonalds". My goodness.

Never mind that the first casualty of a recession is the retail sector. :rolleyes:

A Dub in Glasgo

mountaintop wrote: »

I am greatly disappointed the U.K voted to leave the European Union, but I won't comment on that now. What I want to comment on are the views of some Irish in Britain. I heard on the Joe Duffy show today an Irish man who has lived in England for 20 years and who voted for Brexit. One of the reasons he gave for this was that 'we want our sovereignty back'. Another Irish in Britain caller, a female, said her two English born sons were unable to get employment because immigrants were taking 'their' jobs. I could go on with plenty of other examples including conversations I've had with relatives and other Irish in Britain.
What I want to say is that I am absolutely disgusted with these comments. As an Irish person who worked in Britain during the 1980's and 90's I feel an affinity with immigrants. I know what it's like to be Irish in Britain during the bad times. Have the Irish in Britain forgotten what this was like? Have they forgotten that they are immigrants themselves? One Irish man when asked this very question during the week on the Sean O'Rourke programme I think it was, answered, 'oh no, we're not immigrants, sure not at all'. Unbelievable. Where did he get that from?
Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed working in England and on the whole found the English to be fair and tolerant. But this (latest?) trend among the Irish in Britain (not them all I hope) has me baffled. I would like to ask the Irish man who voted for Brexit because he wanted to get his sovereignty back what, for example, Jeremy Clarkson would say to him. Clarkson might well tell him, get lost Paddy, go back to Ireland for your sovereignty, this is England, and you are neither English or British. And for the first time in my life, though not in those words, I would have to agree with him.

Does my head in as well