Carlow Kilkenny General Election 2016

RobertKK

fits wrote: »

link please? because all I can see is
"Differences amongst male and female respondents does not vary widely with the most marked contrast between the sexes being in the instances of significant foetal disability or non-fatal foetal abnormality with 66% of men agreeing that abortion should be an option while only 57% of woman agree with this assertion."

https://www.newstalk.com/election2016/48-of-people-believe-the-8th-Amendment-should-be-removed-according-to-poll

catbear wrote: »

Stop oppressing robert with inconsequentials like unverifiable sources!!!

Like you use evidence...????

cameramonkey wrote: »

Any chance of that link saying a majority of women appose an amendment. Genuinely interested.

catbear wrote: »

Out of patriarchal duty Robert is well able to speak on behalf of all Irish women.

http://www.redcresearch.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/137015-Newstalk-Poll-8th-Amendment-Press-Release-Version.pdf

Gender difference on wanting the 8th amendment removed:
Male: 53%
Female 43%


Gender difference on wanting the 8th amendment retained:
Male: 37%
Female: 48%

Maybe more men are getting women pregnant and shuld have used contraception...

catbear

RobertKK wrote: »

Maybe more men are getting women pregnant and shuld have used contraception...

Well how else does a woman get pregnant other than male sperm. Oh yes, I forgot, the holy ghost.

Unless we've got a load of hermaphrodites!

RobertKK

catbear wrote: »

Well how else does a woman get pregnant other than male sperm. Oh yes, I forgot, the holy ghost.

Unless we've got a load of hermaphrodites!

Fact remains the findings are more women want the 8th retained than removed, but sure we must listen to the men who are in the majority who want it removed?

catbear

RobertKK wrote: »

Fact remains the findings are more women want the 8th retained than removed, but sure we must listen to the men who are in the majority who want it removed?

We must have a vote before before anything is truly settled. Other than breeding stock women can do other things too like vote Robert.

Cabaal

RobertKK wrote: »

Maybe more men are getting women pregnant and shuld have used contraception...

Thats against the catholic church's teachings in this country, remember...the same church that didn't want condoms sold in Ireland over the counter in the first place

So I suppose in a round about way you can blame the church for the abortion issue, after all for decades they have told people condoms are bad and they've lobbied against them and yet 82% of the country identify as catholic. Having sex without condoms is what the Vatican wants.

Oh and condoms etc aren't 100%, you know that so don't put it down to something that simple.

In addition your comment and your wish for no referendum does nothing to address women who have been raped or women with a fetus with a fatal abnormality. What exactly is your solution to these women?

Cabaal

RobertKK wrote: »

Fact remains the findings are more women want the 8th retained than removed, but sure we must listen to the men who are in the majority who want it removed?

If a majority of women don't want it removed then any referendum will be lost by your logic. why are you worrying at all if you are so sure?

Whats the harm in allowing the people of Ireland to vote on the issue?

catbear

Cabaal wrote: »

In addition your comment and your wish for no referendum does nothing to address women who have been raped or women with a fetus with a fatal abnormality. What exactly is your solution to these women?

I thought Robert was clear about his preference for the status quo. It's fair to assume that he's happy for women to endure rape pregnancies. Maybe he's a supporter of that guy promoting rape within marriage.

Sky King

If a majority of women don't want it removed then any referendum will be lost by your logic.

No. A majority of women could vote against but it could still pass with a higher majority of men voting for.

Maybe he's a supporter of that guy promoting rape within marriage.

Nice strawman argumentation there.

RobertKK

Cabaal wrote: »

Thats against the catholic church's teachings in this country, remember...the same church that didn't want condoms sold in Ireland over the counter in the first place

So I suppose in a round about way you can blame the church for the abortion issue, after all for decades they have told people condoms are bad and they've lobbied against them and yet 82% of the country identify as catholic. Having sex without condoms is what the Vatican wants.

Oh and condoms etc aren't 100%, you know that so don't put it down to something that simple.

In addition your comment and your wish for no referendum does nothing to address women who have been raped or women with a fetus with a fatal abnormality. What exactly is your solution to these women?

My sister was told her unborn would not live after the birth. She had to go to Dublin, it was suggested to her by what must have been a pro-choice nurse that she should consider going to England.
She was pretty disgusted with the nurse but said nothing.
Her own doctor in Kilkenny was very supportive, and then it came to the time for the birth in Dublin, the baby was taken to Crumlin and is now 8 years old living a normal life. When she was told the baby would be dead within hours of birth.
Some in the media want to make out it is black and white when it isn't.

I don't know why you are bringing the church into this.
Pro-life humanists http://www.prolifehumanists.org/
Atheists against abortion https://www.facebook.com/AtheistsAgainstAbortion


When a woman is raped she should be given the medical attention she needs, including the morning after pill. But are you going to say to someone who born as result of their mother being raped, that they should have not been allowed to live?
We had the C case, where the state is responsible for killing the unborn of that woman who was raped against her will.
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/health/ccase-mum-i-grieve-for-my-lost-baby-every-day-29241584.html

It is easy to make everything look black and white, when it is mostly grey.

RobertKK

catbear wrote: »

I thought Robert was clear about his preference for the status quo. It's fair to assume that he's happy for women to endure rape pregnancies. Maybe he's a supporter of that guy promoting rape within marriage.

What a most disgusting comment. It makes you not worth getting involved with.

Cabaal

Sky King wrote: »

No. A majority of women could vote against but it could still pass with a higher majority of men voting for.

So the argument now is men are forcing abortions on women? Pull the other one.

Even if a referendum passed if a women doesn't want to have an abortion in cases of rape, incest, fatal abnormality etc she does not have to.

At the end of the day the 8th puts a fetus above the health and mental well being of a women in this country, this is deeply worrying that for example we care nothing about a women's mental health if she is pregnant from a rape and wants an abortion.

Our solution is to ignore her wishes and allow for the rapists off spring to come to term. Whats next? we allow the rapist to have visitation rights and continue to ignore the women's mental health?

Question for you RobertKK, do you view abortion as "murder"?

Sky King

Cabaal wrote: »

So the argument now is men are forcing abortions on women? Pull the other one.

I have no idea what you are talking about here. I was simply pointing out that this statement of yours is incorrect:

If a majority of women don't want it removed then any referendum will be lost by
your logic.

It is incorrect because in theory a referendum can have either outcome regardless of what a majority of women want.

Not sure how you managed to make the (rather enormous) leap from this to forced abortions!

RobertKK

Cabaal wrote: »

So the argument now is men are forcing abortions on women? Pull the other one.

Even if a referendum passed if a women doesn't want to have an abortion in cases of rape, incest, fatal abnormality etc she does not have to.

At the end of the day the 8th puts a fetus above the health and mental well being of a women in this country, this is deeply worrying that for example we care nothing about a women's mental health if she is pregnant from a rape and wants an abortion.

Our solution is to ignore her wishes and allow for the rapists off spring to come to term. Whats next? we allow the rapist to have visitation rights and continue to ignore the women's mental health?

Question for you RobertKK, do you view abortion as "murder"?

I wll ask you a question, if you stop a human heart beat with intention to stop it and the life with the heart beat is not given the option to live, is that murder?

Our hearts have been beating since three weeks and 1 day after fertilisation, with a foetal heartbeat at 6 weeks.

So if you intentionally kill the heartbeat of a human life without giving it a choice to live, is that murder?

fits

OFF TOPIC!!!
( i know i started it)

Sky King

fits wrote: »

OFF TOPIC!!!
( i know i started it)

I was thinking that too. It's not that far off topic though, as the potential for a referendum is an issue for some people for GE16 and significant numbers people could chose their preferential candidates on that basis.

Cabaal

RobertKK wrote: »

I wll ask you a question, if you stop a human heart beat with intention to stop it and the life with the heart beat is not given the option to live, is that murder?

Our hearts have been beating since three weeks and 1 day after fertilisation, with a foetal heartbeat at 6 weeks.

So if you intentionally kill the heartbeat of a human life without giving it a choice to live, is that murder?

Grand so I take it you do of course a a simple yes or no would have done,

So you believe its murder, can I ask have you lobbied the government to stop women traveling for abortions to England?

If not, why not?

After all murder is murder regardless of where it happens surely? If you have not lobbied why are you ok with exporting abortions and leaving it upto England to provide health care for the women of Ireland?

Cabaal

fits wrote: »

OFF TOPIC!!!
( i know i started it)

nah, to be fair, you're right.
Threads like this http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057495102 are far more relevant to the overall abortion discussion.

So to get back on topic, was out yesterday morning and although the storm has taken posters down I have a sneaking suspicion that some FF have been removed by people.

The locations some of the posters were in had no chance of being ripped off by the storm, in addition there's no sign of any cable ties or the poster. I think somebody is cutting them down.

RobertKK

Cabaal wrote: »

Grand so I take it you do of course a a simple yes or no would have done,

So you believe its murder, can I ask have you lobbied the government to stop women traveling for abortions to England?

If not, why not?

After all murder is murder regardless of where it happens surely? If you have not lobbied why are you ok with exporting abortions and leaving it upto England to provide health care for the women of Ireland?

I don't have to lobby, I vote for people who have good records on the issue.

It is illegal under the Irish constitution if carried out in Ireland. I don't have to lobby to change something I don't want changed. I can vote against the repeal if a referendum is held.

Yeah they get health care in England http://www.irishcentral.com/news/irish-woman-left-fighting-for-life-after-botched-uk-abortion-left-parts-of-fetus-inside-her-134986788-237423201.html

The thing is the people who support repeal the 8th think the support is there for it. Then some on the repeal the 8th side think same sex marriage passing means repeal the 8th will, when one was about marriage and the other life and death.
There will be a lot of people who voted for SSM but will not for repeal the 8th.

So getting back on topic, it is beneficial on a election point of view to oppose the repeal of the 8th amendment as there are a lot of voters who also don't want it repealed.
I don't have to explain my position any further but anyone who thinks it is beneficial to be for repealing the 8th are ignoring the Red C poll which showed there are a lot of people opposed to the repeal.

Most of the wannabe politicians who support repeal the 8th are from a far left and they propose nothing to replace it, but let parliament decide.
Yet we saw the people did not trust the politicians when it came to bringing people in for questions under a Dail committee where findings could be made, rather than a report with no consequences as it is now.
People don't trust politicians and don't want to give them more power, why would they vote to give them power over abortion when the people hold the power now?
Support for a repeal will also fall during a referendum, just as support always falls in a referendum when there is change involved.

catbear

Don't worry Robert, I'm sure you're not alone wanting to restrain further those rape pregnancies. If only those rape pregnancies would show more respect for your delicate feelings.

Maybe you should a little nap.

Gaspode

Personal attacks are not permitted - respond to the post not the poster. Further personal stuff will result in sanction.

cameramonkey

Maybe we should get back to the business at hand, the election.

catbear

Well for the abortion issue is up for discussion when considering candidates. Most seem ambiguous about the matter, have FF or FG come out with any party line position or are they leaving it individual candidates?

fits

catbear wrote: »

Well for the abortion issue is up for discussion when considering candidates. Most seem ambiguous about the matter, have FF or FG come out with any party line position or are they leaving it individual candidates?

FFs position (male, stale etc) is that they don't want anything to change and will not support a referendum. Martin came out with party line yesterday.

FG's clever little sidestep is the citizen's convention. But there's no appetite from the leadership (i.e. Kenny) for a referendum. Kenny is definitely anti repeal and I cant see a decent effort from government to deal with the issue until he is gone. Varadkar would probably deal with it, not sure about Coveney where he stands. I reckon one or other of them will succeed Kenny before the next election after this one.

catbear

Thanks for that. I figured FG were ambivalent about the matter but FF coming out against it might lure a few FF voters to the SF position.

It certainly is an issue that I'll be asking on the doorstep.

RobertKK

fits wrote: »

FFs position (male, stale etc) is that they don't want anything to change and will not support a referendum. Martin came out with party line yesterday.

FG's clever little sidestep is the citizen's convention. But there's no appetite from the leadership (i.e. Kenny) for a referendum. Kenny is definitely anti repeal and I cant see a decent effort from government to deal with the issue until he is gone. Varadkar would probably deal with it, not sure about Coveney where he stands. I reckon one or other of them will succeed Kenny before the next election after this one.

Vincent Browne was coming from the Cork constituency that has Micheal Martin last night.
He said there is a free vote in FF, and that at the moment they don't know what is being proposed, but they rightly said they would need to see what would replace the 8th amendment before they could have an opinion.
He said they can't support something either way if they don't know what they are supporting.

FG want a constitutional convention type of thing, but basically agreed with Micheal Martin that they would have to see what replaces the 8th amendment.

fits

RobertKK wrote: »

http://www.redcresearch.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/137015-Newstalk-Poll-8th-Amendment-Press-Release-Version.pdf

Gender difference on wanting the 8th amendment removed:
Male: 53%
Female 43%


Gender difference on wanting the 8th amendment retained:
Male: 37%
Female: 48%

OK in terms of the election and representation, I had a look at this link earlier. The results in full were.

In cases of rape or incest 78% of respondents believed abortion should be an available option
for fatal foetal abnormality 76%
for significant foetal disability 61%
for suicidal feelings on part of mother 59%
In ANY CIRCUMSTANCE felt necessary by the mother 41%

Given that the 8th amendment would need to be removed to facilitate any of these situations it is clear that respondents don't fully understand the implications of retaining the 8th amendment. Therefore, I think once this was communicated properly in the referendum the 8th amendment would be repealed, easily.

Given these figures it is dumbfounding that Fine Gael in particular are still refusing to deal with it. But I guess the hate mail from the US must be pretty exhausting to deal with.

RobertKK

fits wrote: »

OK in terms of the election and representation, I had a look at this link earlier. The results in full were.

In cases of rape or incest 78% of respondents believed abortion should be an available option
for fatal foetal abnormality 76%
for significant foetal disability 61%
for suicidal feelings on part of mother 59%
In ANY CIRCUMSTANCE felt necessary by the mother 41%

Given that the 8th amendment would need to be removed to facilitate any of these situations it is clear that respondents don't fully understand the implications of retaining the 8th amendment. Therefore, I think once this was communicated properly in the referendum the 8th amendment would be repealed, easily.

Given these figures it is dumbfounding that Fine Gael in particular are still refusing to deal with it. But I guess the hate mail from the US must be pretty exhausting to deal with.

Maybe the real concern is giving the power to the Dail.
That is why the 30th amendment failed as it was giving the Dail a lot of power for Dail inquiries.
Repeal the 8th = give the Dail a lot more power in the area of abortion. The issue then becomes bigger than the issue, it becomes a matter of 'do you trust the politicians?'
For the Dail inquiries, the people didn't trust the politicians.

fits

This is a health issue! The Dail shouldn't have any more say in abortion than they do in the flu. Seriously. Its between a woman, her partner and her doctor(s). People will come to realise that in time too. Hopefully there wont be many more tragedies before that happens. And hopefully I wont number among them. (THings can go VERY wrong in pregnancy and two people known to me have been very endangered already by the current situation.)

RobertKK

fits wrote: »

This is a health issue! The Dail shouldn't have any more say in abortion than they do in the flu. Seriously. Its between a woman, her partner and her doctor(s). People will come to realise that in time too. Hopefully there wont be many more tragedies before that happens. And hopefully I wont number among them. (THings can go VERY wrong in pregnancy and two people known to me have been very endangered already by the current situation.)

Most cases are not health related, might be economic, feel they are too young, might feel they have no support, a fraction are for health reasons.

There is nothing endangering women's lives. the US and UK have higher maternal deaths and they have liberal abortion regimes.

fits

RobertKK wrote: »

Most cases are not health related, might be economic, feel they are too young, might feel they have no support, a fraction are for health reasons.

There is nothing endangering women's lives. the US and UK have higher maternal deaths and they have liberal abortion regimes.

Yeah yeah :rolleyes: All three masters of the Dublin Maternity Hospitals disagree with you but sure what would they know.

Anyway. Back on topic. I saw Malcolm Noonan on Prime Time last night and was impressed with him. He is a good speaker and comes across well. I am considering voting for him now. Its between him and Ann Phelan for the 1-2.