EV-curious - would like some answers

slicedpanman

Hi all,
I'm currently thinking about getting an EV (2nd hand leaf) but have a few questions for you guys (great forum BTW);

1) Is there an annual/monthly access charge for use of the eCars public charge stations?
2) Are there any tips to securing your charge cable while charging overnight? (Where I live if it has a value and can move, it will get stolen)
3) When the ESB talk about "surface wiring only" - what does that mean exactly? will they drill holes to get cables outside?
4) Also when they (ESB) talk about the "Customer Distribution Board" - what are they talking about? meter? fuse board? If its the fuse board does it have to be the "main" one? (I've got a 2nd one near the front of the house)

thanks
spm

stesaurus

slicedpanman wrote: »

Hi all,
I'm currently thinking about getting an EV (2nd hand leaf) but have a few questions for you guys (great forum BTW);

1) Is there an annual/monthly access charge for use of the eCars public charge stations?
2) Are there any tips to securing your charge cable while charging overnight? (Where I live if it has a value and can move, it will get stolen)
3) When the ESB talk about "surface wiring only" - what does that mean exactly? will they drill holes to get cables outside?
4) Also when they (ESB) talk about the "Customer Distribution Board" - what are they talking about? meter? fuse board? If its the fuse board does it have to be the "main" one? (I've got a 2nd one near the front of the house)

thanks
spm

1 Not yet but they did try to introduce them for January. EV users kicked up a bit of a storm and CER(Energy Commision) stepped in and told them they need to wait for a consultation process before any charges can be implemented.
We're not against charges it's just that their proposed charges were really high and counter productive to EV's gaining popularity.
Imo we'll have charging introduced this year that will be fair with a few different options to suit usage.

2 I have a 2nd chargepoint at my parents' house in Tallaght for when I'm up that way so I know the worry. The cables lock into both the car and unit so it won't be going anywhere.
More likely for it to be tampered with at public points. It will still be locked but they may still try.

3 & 4 Distribution board is the fuseboard yes. Hard to say for sure as I'm not a sparks but if the one at the front of the house is still up and running and not being bypassed then no reason they can't use that one. They'll add in a breaker specifically for the chargepoint so it's quite safe.
They drill through to an outer wall and run cable from the fuseboard to outside. It will be ducted and generally neat and tidy. Most people wouldn't even know what it was.

Is there a handy location outside close to your fuseboard?

Our house needed a small auxiliary fuse box too feed the charger and there was an extra charge of some tens of Euro for it. The installer drilled hole through the porch wall and surface mounted the EVSE and cabling under sitting room window. For a second hand EV you'll need to arrange the installation yourself.

ESB charging for charging is currently on hold waiting for pricing review so continues to be f.o.c. Finally, Leaf MY13 which has electrically operated charging door has a lockable socket that grabs the cable in place so aim to purchase one of those.

slicedpanman

s.welstead wrote: »

1 Not yet but they did try to introduce them for January. EV users kicked up a bit of a storm and CER(Energy Commision) stepped in and told them they need to wait for a consultation process before any charges can be implemented.
We're not against charges it's just that their proposed charges were really high and counter productive to EV's gaining popularity.
Imo we'll have charging introduced this year that will be fair with a few different options to suit usage.

ta

s.welstead wrote: »

2 I have a 2nd chargepoint at my parents' house in Tallaght for when I'm up that way so I know the worry. The cables lock into both the car and unit so it won't be going anywhere.
More likely for it to be tampered with at public points. It will still be locked but they may still try.

good to know, thanks

s.welstead wrote: »

3 & 4 Distribution board is the fuseboard yes. Hard to say for sure as I'm not a sparks but if the one at the front of the house is still up and running and not being bypassed then no reason they can't use that one. They'll add in a breaker specifically for the chargepoint so it's quite safe.
They drill through to an outer wall and run cable from the fuseboard to outside. It will be ducted and generally neat and tidy. Most people wouldn't even know what it was.

Is there a handy location outside close to your fuseboard?

yeah, the whole house was rewired about 5 years ago and our electrician put the 2nd fuse board in the porch/wind lobby - it only has the front doorbell, front security lights and a couple of outdoor sockets running off it.

Its pretty close to the front driveway and it very close (well less then 10M) from where the charge point would be. Main issue might be getting the cable from the porch/wind lobby to the outside.

Rafal

Whether you can use the secondary fuse board or not will also depend on the gauge of the wiring going to it from the main fuse board, especially if you are looking for the faster, 32A charge point. I doubt it would be an issue with the slower, 16A one.

Since you are going to be paying for the charge point anyway (ESB-paid ones only qualify for new cars) you should consider the faster charge point. It will charge your Leaf from empty in about 3 hours, while the regular one needs about 7 hours. Does not matter overnight, but makes a difference when you need a quick top up during the day. You would also need to make sure your Leaf had the 6.6 kW on-board charger (option) and not the 3.3 kW default one.

slicedpanman

thanks Rafal...
I'm looking at two 2nd hand ones - both at a dealers and the dealer says that they both include a free home charge point. is he kidding me?

cros13

slicedpanman wrote: »

thanks Rafal...
I'm looking at two 2nd hand ones - both at a dealers and the dealer says that they both include a free home charge point. is he kidding me?

It's possible that the chargepoint may not have been claimed (often the case with demo cars for example). I'd ask him to confirm in writing though. You'd still need the original grant documentation to claim the chargepoint.

+1 on installing a 32A chargepoint if you can. The 16A and 32A cost the same so it's only a bit of uprated cable (which you should install for future proofing anyway) and making sure you have the capacity at the distribution board.

slicedpanman

cros13 wrote: »

It's possible that the chargepoint may not have been claimed (often the case with demo cars for example). I'd ask him to confirm in writing though. You'd still need the original grant documentation to claim the chargepoint.

+1 on installing a 32A chargepoint if you can. The 16A and 32A cost the same so it's only a bit of uprated cable (which you should install for future proofing anyway) and making sure you have the capacity at the distribution board.

Thanks cros13

I've some follow up questions (like to be well informed before contacting the dealer again)

• If it is a 32A chargepoint; do I need a 32A charge cable? Or is the cable rating dependent on the car; i.e. if the car charger can only handle 16A then cable must be 16A?
• If I need to pay for the chargepoint/install - what kind of ballpark figure are we talking about?
• If not, and the ESB are covering it, will I get the option of a 32A chargepoint?
• (last one); is it advisable to always have a granny cable (std 3 pin plug) in the car? And roughly how much do these cost?

thanks again guys... I'm starting to get my head round all this stuff

toadfly

2: depending the year, you might need a lock to keep the cable attached to the car. 2013 onwards can be locked, earlier and need your own lock

cros13

slicedpanman wrote: »

[*]If it is a 32A chargepoint; do I need a 32A charge cable? Or is the cable rating dependent on the car; i.e. if the car charger can only handle 16A then cable must be 16A?

With the exception of the 400V rapid chargers you'll find on the motorways, you be using the charger built into the car. The chargepoint on the wall is just a fancy outdoor socket.

The Leaf has two options for the charger built into the car: a 15A charger or a 30A charger (referred to as a 3.3kW or 6.6kW). The chargepoint is rated based on the maximum it can supply, it's up to the cars charger how much of the capacity is used. 32A chargepoint will supply a maximum of 7.4kW (the normal supply to a household is rated at 12-16kW). The lowest common denominator of charger, cable and chargepoint is what applies. So even though many of the streetside ESB chargepoints are rated to 22kW they will only supply that amount of power to a car that supports charging at that rate.

Some examples:
Car | Charger in car supports: | Cable | Chargepoint | Actual Charge Rate
Nissan Leaf 3.3 | 3.3kW/15A | 16A | 22kW | 3.3kW
Nissan Leaf 6.6 | 6.6kW/30A | 16A | 22kW | 3.6kW
Nissan Leaf 6.6 | 6.6kW/30A | 32A | 22kW | 6.6kW
Nissan Leaf 6.6 | 6.6kW/30A | 32A | 3.6kW/16A | 3.6kW
Nissan Leaf 6.6 | 6.6kW/30A | 32A | 7.4kW/32A | 6.6kW
BMW i3 | 7.4kW/32A | 32A | 22kW | 7.4kW
BMW i3 | 7.4kW/32A | 32A | 3.6kW/16A | 3.6kW
Tesla Model S | 11kW Single Charger | 16A | 22kW | 3.6kW
Tesla Model S | 11kW Single Charger | 3x32A | 22kW | 11kW
Tesla Model S | 22kW Dual Charger | 3x32A | 22kW | 22kW

slicedpanman wrote: »

[*]If I need to pay for the chargepoint/install - what kind of ballpark figure are we talking about?

Just buy the chargepoint yourself and get any electrician to install it. It's the same as any outdoor socket. Since there is little to no difference in price between 32A or 16A cables and chargepoints you should be buying 32A gear. It's a sensible bit of future proofing. You should also be running 40A rated cable to the chargepoint regardless of what you get.

Chargepoint:
https://www.yesss.co.uk/heating-ventilation-c5/ev-charging-c1694/charge-points-c1695/rolec-ev-home-commercial-charge-wallpod-32a-type-2-evwp2026-p23238

Get it delivered to parcel motel and you'll only pay €3.95 for the shipping.

slicedpanman wrote: »

[*]If not, and the ESB are covering it, will I get the option of a 32A chargepoint?

Nope, they will only offer you the 16A as a matter of policy. Some of the installers have been offering 32A upgrades for similar money you would spend buying the chargepoint yourself.

slicedpanman wrote: »

[*](last one); is it advisable to always have a granny cable (std 3 pin plug) in the car? And roughly how much do these cost?

:I Depends on your use, whether it's worth it to you or not. I got one free with both of my EVs. In 100,000km of electric motoring I've used them a total of three times. None of those occasions was I short for a charge... I was just charging because I could.

slicedpanman

Excellent post cros13 - very clear
and ta for the link to the 32A home chargepoint... they are not cheap @ £340/€450 - but I expect that I could be in the EV game for long run and it will probably pay me back several times over in shorter charge times if I ever get a car with a more capable charger built in

Rafal

If you qualify for the ESB install of a 16A charge point you should be able to negotiate some €400 off the cost of installing a 32A unit, based on my experience: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057538444

mylesm

slicedpanman wrote: »

thanks Rafal...
I'm looking at two 2nd hand ones - both at a dealers and the dealer says that they both include a free home charge point. is he kidding me?

Yes that happened to me as well The Dealer said the guy trading in the leaf was getting a new one and he would get a charge point with that so dealer asked him to give old charge point with trade in makes it easier for Dealer to sell Secondhand car

If you're thinking about getting a 2nd hand EV then seriously consider the July 2013 (Built) leafs that were updated and have a much better battery and heater provided it's the SV or SVE trim.

You'll know them by their darker interior and the ac will have a separate heat and AC button and also the updated model has a foot operate handbrake the original leaf had an electronic parking brake.

The updated leaf also has a battery % indicator the original had not and you had to rely only on the guessed range.

Also as mentioned above the updated leaf from July 2013 has a lock for the charge lead at the car end which has to be turned on before it will engage. If the car is charged then someone can plug you out at the charger end.

Also the 6.6 kw charger is one of the most important extras in this car because one of the most important things about ev ownership is the ability to charge as fast as possible when you "need" to, it doesn't matter what you main charging habits are which for most people is over night then the 3.3 kw charger is plenty, it matters when you are out and about and you can plug into a standard street charger it will charge 50% in two hours compared to 50% in 4 hours with the 3.3 kw.

The 6.6 Kw also means if you can plug into a standard street charge point in town then you can get a significant charge in just 2 hours which means you'll either not need to find a fast charger or at least spend far less time charging at one, also it could mean not waiting behind someone already charging at that fast charger. Also , having the 6.6 Kw charger could mean the difference between getting home and not if a fast charger was down.

The ESB will bill for charger use eventually but the proposed chargers were not that outrageous as people thought because most of your charging is done at home on night rate electricity and if a couple of trips a year cost the same as diesel then I don't think that's outrageous. If you're still saving a significant amount of money even using the charge points for 5-10 mins daily over a 5 day commute, 5 mins can make a big difference.

There was going to be no damage to ev adoption because most people are not thinking about buying an ev in the first place. Take up is painfully slow.

If you're thinking about getting a 2nd hand EV then seriously consider the July 2013 (Built) leafs that were updated and have a much better battery and heater provided it's the SV or SVE trim.

You'll know them by their darker interior and the ac will have a separate heat and AC button and also the updated model has a foot operate handbrake the original leaf had an electronic parking brake.

The updated leaf also has a battery % indicator the original had not and you had to rely only on the guessed range.

Also as mentioned above the updated leaf from July 2013 has a lock for the charge lead at the car end which has to be turned on before it will engage. If the car is charged then someone can plug you out at the charger end.

Also the 6.6 kw charger is one of the most important extras in this car because one of the most important things about ev ownership is the ability to charge as fast as possible when you "need" to, it doesn't matter what you main charging habits are which for most people is over night then the 3.3 kw charger is plenty, it matters when you are out and about and you can plug into a standard street charger it will charge 50% in two hours compared to 50% in 4 hours with the 3.3 kw.

The 6.6 Kw also means if you can plug into a standard street charge point in town then you can get a significant charge in just 2 hours which means you'll either not need to find a fast charger or at least spend far less time charging at one, also it could mean not waiting behind someone already charging at that fast charger. Also , having the 6.6 Kw charger could mean the difference between getting home and not if a fast charger was down.

The ESB will bill for charger use eventually but the proposed chargers were not that outrageous as people thought because most of your charging is done at home on night rate electricity and if a couple of trips a year cost the same as diesel then I don't think that's outrageous. If you're still saving a significant amount of money even using the charge points for 5-10 mins daily over a 5 day commute, 5 mins can make a big difference.

There was going to be no damage to ev adoption because most people are not thinking about buying an ev in the first place. Take up is painfully slow.

homer911

Deleted User wrote: »

If you're thinking about getting a 2nd hand EV then seriously consider the July 2013 (Built) leafs that were updated and have a much better battery and heater provided it's the SV or SVE trim.

You'll know them by their darker interior ...

The dark interior in the 2013 H2+ model is a standard choice, not automatic. We thought the darker interior made the car look too cramped and chose the light interior

slicedpanman

Thanks Mad_Lad and Rafal... all great advice. I'd be in the same situation as mylesm - it would not be the ESB installing, the dealer has picked up the old chargepoint and will use that and his electrician to do the install.

As its a 151 Leaf with the 3.3 charger I'll stick with the free chargepoint but I will see if I can get the electrician to put in a 40A trip switch and cable from there to the chargepoint that would support a 32A chargepoint. That way if I ever upgrade the car I'd only need to change the chargepoint.

Can anyone tell me, please, what spec/grade the cable needs to be to support a 32A chargepoint? Just in case I need to get the cable myself for the electrician.

BoatMad

slicedpanman wrote: »

Thanks Mad_Lad and Rafal... all great advice. I'd be in the same situation as mylesm - it would not be the ESB installing, the dealer has picked up the old chargepoint and will use that and his electrician to do the install.

As its a 151 Leaf with the 3.3 charger I'll stick with the free chargepoint but I will see if I can get the electrician to put in a 40A trip switch and cable from there to the chargepoint that would support a 32A chargepoint. That way if I ever upgrade the car I'd only need to change the chargepoint.

Can anyone tell me, please, what spec/grade the cable needs to be to support a 32A chargepoint? Just in case I need to get the cable myself for the electrician.

6mm2 twin and Earth , suitable sized RCBO ,

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

6mm2 twin and Earth , suitable sized RCBO ,

What he said

40A C curve RCBO.

slicedpanman

BoatMad wrote: »

6mm2 twin and Earth , suitable sized RCBO ,

cros13 wrote: »

What he said

40A C curve RCBO.

much appreciated guys

homer911

homer911 wrote: »

The dark interior in the 2013 H2+ model is a standard choice, not automatic. We thought the darker interior made the car look too cramped and chose the light interior

The dark interior is standard but you'd rarely find one form the updated 2013 with the lighter interior and if you do chances are it's the Gen I.

For anyone not aware, the easiest way to know the difference is by looking at the climate control.

If it's the current Gen it has a separate button for heat and AC , the Original leaf only had an AC button.

See the pics below.

First Pic original Leaf.



Updated Leaf , which has the better battery, and the heat pump available only in the SV and SVE trims.

BoatMad

personally after owning a cream leather range rover, Ill never buy anything but dark interiors again, I mean VW, Audi, BMW, cant be all wrong. to me a used , vaguely grubby light interior dates very rapidly. it looks spectacular in the showroom of course.

DrPhilG

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The ESB will bill for charger use eventually but the proposed chargers were not that outrageous as people thought because most of your charging is done at home on night rate electricity and if a couple of trips a year cost the same as diesel then I don't think that's outrageous. If you're still saving a significant amount of money even using the charge points for 5-10 mins daily over a 5 day commute, 5 mins can make a big difference.

You never give up with that nonsense do you?

DrPhilG

DrPhilG wrote: »

You never give up with that nonsense do you?

No because it's fact. You don't like it you don't have to it doesn't mean it's nonsense !

DrPhilG

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No because it's fact. You don't like it you don't have to it doesn't mean it's nonsense !

Ah the irony...

Just because you don't agree doesn't mean it isn't nonsense either.

Because the charges wouldn't affect YOU too much, you declare the charges reasonable and slate anyone who raised a fuss about it.

DrPhilG

DrPhilG wrote: »

Ah the irony...

Just because you don't agree doesn't mean it isn't nonsense either.

Because the charges wouldn't affect YOU too much, you declare the charges reasonable and slate anyone who raised a fuss about it.

Oh well, just look at free electricity since 2011, people aren't exactly flocking to electrics and most who do are do so because they are aware of the advantages and free public charging isn't saving a fortune, the real savings come from the cheap cost of electricity and the high efficiency of electrics and charging at home mainly, most EV owners also prefer how an EV drives and the tech toys.

The charges won't effect me much as I expect most people won't be effected either, I drive 135-140 Kms for work or 18,000-20,000 miles a year, I expect most Leaf owners drive less and as I said if I were to use the chargers as I did for 9 months for work it would still work much less than a 55 mpg diesel. This isn't small mileage.

If someone needs a fast charger for all their charging then they shouldn't have an EV, that's my opinion, obviously they're entitled to buy whatever they want if they're prepared to spend so much time charging then that's fine and perhaps some consideration can be given to these people, but I'd rather see the issue of home charging addressed than see unlimited usage options for chargers.

As it stands now the proposed 17 PM would effect me as a light user but I never said it was a sane decision to introduce this in the first place.

Anyway I'm sure there will be something that will suit everyone when they actually do introduce the charges. No point talking abut what if's and maybes.

BoatMad

I mentioned elsewhere that I heard a rumour that the commission for energy regulation was to make a pronouncement on the pricing structure for the charging system , next week

slicedpanman

Thanks guys for all your help...
deposit put down on Saturday - now its time to get that charging station installed, the rest of the cash rounded up and finally join the EV gang

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

I mentioned elsewhere that I heard a rumour that the commission for energy regulation was to make a pronouncement on the pricing structure for the charging system , next week

EV sales are minuscule and probably 99.6% of car buyers are not thinking of buying and EV so I highly doubt it would effect any voting outcome.