Beginner Weightlfting

MightyMandarin

So I started getting weightlifting classes 3 weeks ago at a good place I saw recommended on here.

Although I'm willing to be patient, I am curious whether any of the weightlifters on here would have any idea when my strength levels will somewhat correlate with the classic lifts? Or is it really a 'how long is a piece of string' type of question?

I'm not really one for testing 1RM's on squats as I'd rather spend my time focusing on building strength than tapering it, but my lifts are:
Back Squat:150kg for 5x5 (estimate around 180)
Front Squat:120 for 5x5 (estimate around 150)
Deadlift: 200
Push Press: 90
Strict Press: 80 (I suck at the dip when push-pressing)

BW around 77kg

Also, would I be better off using my regular training sessions to keep focusing on building my squat, deadlift and pressing strength? Or should I just practice what I'm taught and supplement that with squats etc. at the end?

Hanley

After 3 weeks you've no right to expect anything to correlate to anything. Don't even ask in 3 months. Come back in 3 years.

Weightlifting is an incredibly slow burner. You won't see any correlation for a long long time. One thing is for sure tho - your squat and deadlift are not what's holding you back.

What you should do in your regular training sessions is whatever your coach has told you to do.

Hanley

After 3 weeks you've no right to expect anything to correlate to anything. Don't even ask in 3 months. Come back in 3 years.

Weightlifting is an incredibly slow burner. You won't see any correlation for a long long time. One thing is for sure tho - your squat and deadlift are not what's holding you back.

What you should do in your regular training sessions is whatever your coach has told you to do.

Mellor

I stared at your post for a few minutes trying to figure what was going on. Thinking you've lifting more than 3 weeks with those numbers, plus the fact you've been posting here for years.
Then it clicked. Weightlifting.
In my defence, it's 5pm and I've a full days work under my belt.


Where are you classic lifts right now? I'm about a similar size to you and recently added oly lifts to my regular programming (self coached, so i'm probably stifling my progress a bit). But I'm nowhere near what would be considered the correct ratios - which appears to vary depending on who you ask.

Back Squat:150kg for 5x5 (estimate around 180)
Front Squat:120 for 5x5 (estimate around 150)
Deadlift: 200
Push Press: 90
Strict Press: 80 (I suck at the dip when push-pressing)

Where are you classic lifts in relation to these? Or where exactly do you think that are "off, compared to expected co-relation.

I assume that's a low bar squat figure. I think your 1RM estimates are a little high. 120>150 is a huge 25% increase. I's expect a 5RM > 1RM increase to be about half of that.

As I said, I'm the same size. Deadlift isn't too far behind (maybe 5%), but the difference appears to be much greater for the rest. 80kg strict press :mad:
I iamgine you are miles ahead of me in the oly lifts

MightyMandarin

Mellor wrote: »

I stared at your post for a few minutes trying to figure what was going on. Thinking you've lifting more than 3 weeks with those numbers, plus the fact you've been posting here for years.
Then it clicked. Weightlifting.
In my defence, it's 5pm and I've a full days work under my belt.


Where are you classic lifts right now? I'm about a similar size to you and recently added oly lifts to my regular programming (self coached, so i'm probably stifling my progress a bit). But I'm nowhere near what would be considered the correct ratios - which appears to vary depending on who you ask.


Where are you classic lifts in relation to these? Or where exactly do you think that are "off, compared to expected co-relation.

I assume that's a low bar squat figure. I think your 1RM estimates are a little high. 120>150 is a huge 25% increase. I's expect a 5RM > 1RM increase to be about half of that.

As I said, I'm the same size. Deadlift isn't too far behind (maybe 5%), but the difference appears to be much greater for the rest. 80kg strict press :mad:
I iamgine you are miles ahead of me in the oly lifts

The most I've done is 50kg Snatch and 70kg Clean with half-decent form. I wouldn't dare go higher as my form would deteriorate dramatically. In class I usually do 40kg snatches for doubles and I did 65kg cleans for a few sets last week.

I only squat highbar and I've done 160 for a set of 5, but I prefer to base my strength levels around 5x5. It just seems an easier way to measure my progress as I'm not a fan of going above 90% when I've nothing to gain from testing strength, other than an enlarged ego.

I've read front squats have a better correlation to the classic lifts, so I'm only front squatting at the moment. Also, 120 isn't my 5rm, I just said it was my best 5x5. I've comfortbaly done 125 for 6 sets of 4, so I'd say my 5rm is that or maybe a little higher. I base my 5x5 at around about 80% as I rarely max out and 80-85% is the perfect range for strength gains, so I'd rather do that than waste my time doing sets of 2 at 90% for example.

I think your clean is about 85% of your front squat so I imagine I have the strength to clean 120kg but obviously I've no technique to back it up so I wouldn't even bother attempting it.

Mellor

MightyMandarin wrote: »

The most I've done is 50kg Snatch and 70kg Clean with half-decent form. I wouldn't dare go higher as my form would deteriorate dramatically. In class I usually do 40kg snatches for doubles and I did 65kg cleans for a few sets last week.

Those are around similar to the numbers I'm using. (45 and 74 last week). Which probably means I'm lifting too heavy from a technical breakdown point of view.

I only squat highbar and I've done 160 for a set of 5, but I prefer to base my strength levels around 5x5. It just seems an easier way to measure my progress as I'm not a fan of going above 90% when I've nothing to gain from testing strength, other than an enlarged ego.

Highbar :eek:
In that case, I imagine that your actually deadlift is >200kg.
Working in that range makes sense. But what way do you progress the lifts. If you are adding weight you'll eventually get to a point where you are lifting over 85/5 but still making 5 reps.

I think your clean is about 85% of your front squat so I imagine I have the strength to clean 120kg but obviously I've no technique to back it up so I wouldn't even bother attempting it.

From what I've read, it varies a lot depending on all sorts of factors. A lot of the guides give a normal range.

A range I seen a lot was that back squat should be 128-132% of clean. Which means the clean should be about 76% of the backsquat. Which a clean for you somewhere in the high 120s.
I've also seen it suggest front squat should be 85% of backsquat. And clean should be 90% of front squat. Which is about 76% for clean<backsquat also.

That said, it's probably an error holding yourself to elite WL ratios. I came across a crude and simple set of ratios from a powerlifting/general gym perspective.
Deadlift>Low Bar>High Bar>Front squat>Power Clean>Power Snatch
-All 80%.
(which makes sense as non-WL lifts are more likely to do the power variation, and they should be a bit behind the full version %'s above)


I'm a good bit off any of that for now. And the only if reason it looks remotely ok on paper is because my high bar squat is so bad (recent switch from low bar).
Out of curiosity do you find it harder to clean or snatch?

MightyMandarin

Mellor wrote: »

Those are around similar to the numbers I'm using. (45 and 74 last week). Which probably means I'm lifting too heavy from a technical breakdown point of view.


Highbar :eek:
In that case, I imagine that your actually deadlift is >200kg.
Working in that range makes sense. But what way do you progress the lifts. If you are adding weight you'll eventually get to a point where you are lifting over 85/5 but still making 5 reps.


From what I've read, it varies a lot depending on all sorts of factors. A lot of the guides give a normal range.

A range I seen a lot was that back squat should be 128-132% of clean. Which means the clean should be about 76% of the backsquat. Which a clean for you somewhere in the high 120s.
I've also seen it suggest front squat should be 85% of backsquat. And clean should be 90% of front squat. Which is about 76% for clean<backsquat also.

That said, it's probably an error holding yourself to elite WL ratios. I came across a crude and simple set of ratios from a powerlifting/general gym perspective.
Deadlift>Low Bar>High Bar>Front squat>Power Clean>Power Snatch
-All 80%.
(which makes sense as non-WL lifts are more likely to do the power variation, and they should be a bit behind the full version %'s above)


I'm a good bit off any of that for now. And the only if reason it looks remotely ok on paper is because my high bar squat is so bad (recent switch from low bar).
Out of curiosity do you find it harder to clean or snatch?

Usually I just vary it between higher volume(6x6) or intensity(5x3) different days, just to get used to lifting heavier weight. I try to squat at least 2/3 times a week. The only way I progress the lifts is just basically trying to set small PR's all the time, but it's getting a lot harder to do that now, which is why I've tried a few programs like russian squat routine, candito's 6 week, smolov jr (I'll never do that one again) but I usually ignore the testing phases and stick to the volume blocks. The only time I set 'real' PR's like 5rm's is when I just go in the gym and keep doing 5 reps on heavier weights until I can't go higher, but I rarely do this.

The Snatch is much harder as it's just a more technical lift. Cleans are technical, but the snatch just feels more awkward to do imo.

Just on the switch from lowbar thing, even if I was doing powerlifting or just focusing on the powerlifts, I'd still only do highbar/beltless squats as I think it's better to build strength there as it carries over to your lowbar/belted squats and it means less weight on your joints. The same way I only front squat at the moment, I think it's better to build strength in your weaker lifts as it'll carry over. I've gotten some of my friends to do that with their squats and when they went back to lowbar squats they set big PR's; probably bigger than if they had just trained normally. Just my 2c on this stuff.

Mellor

I'm only squatting one a week. Obviously if I was training solely for lifting is be squatting 2/3 times.

Agree with snatching. I'm still basically power snatching most of the time. I've no major problem with the position, it's just getting into it fast enough under load.

Yeah I definitely see a benefit to high bar, for PL/low bar lifters. Even if it was just the occasional cycle

EmcD123

Mellor wrote: »

I'm still basically power snatching most of the time.

Be careful with that if you want to compete, power snatching can become a habit thats hard to break, when the weights start getting heavier and you need the full depth to get them you might find you automatically do a power snatch ,happens to lots of people . if power snatches aren't on the program for that day you should do a full snatch all the time and just work on the speed as you go along. Unless of course youre not going to compete and you want the extra speed benefits that comes with the power variations.

Ive got a bad habit myself of catching the bar high and then basically turning it into a bit of an overhead squat

Mellor

EmcD123 wrote: »

Be careful with that if you want to compete, power snatching can become a habit thats hard to break, when the weights start getting heavier and you need the full depth to get them you might find you automatically do a power snatch ,happens to lots of people . if power snatches aren't on the program for that day you should do a full snatch all the time and just work on the speed as you go along. Unless of course youre not going to compete and you want the extra speed benefits that comes with the power variations.

Ive got a bad habit myself of catching the bar high and then basically turning it into a bit of an overhead squat

I'm not choosing the power variation on purpose. It's simply where I end up with any snatch other than warming up with the bar - in that case I'm prob just holding the bar up to give me time to get down.
I'd like to be be better at full snatches, in order to snatch more. But if it never happens I won't mind, never going to be trying out for the nation squad

EmcD123

Mellor wrote: »

I'm not choosing the power variation on purpose. It's simply where I end up with any snatch other than warming up with the bar - in that case I'm prob just holding the bar up to give me time to get down.
I'd like to be be better at full snatches, in order to snatch more. But if it never happens I won't mind, never going to be trying out for the nation squad

Oh right ,I see what you mean by that now. You're probably just delaying too much before you go under but yeah snatches are really hard:)

Mellor

EmcD123 wrote: »

Oh right ,I see what you mean by that now. You're probably just delaying too much before you go under but yeah snatches are really hard:)

To be honest use to always catch cleans in a power position. Eventually worked up to full cleans do I'm hoping the same will happen with snatch vine over time.