Election

robdonn

realdanbreen wrote: »

What p1sses me off is people who have a complex about being Irish or about living in Ireland. Fact is we are blessed to be living in a democracy where the electorate decide who represents us in parliament. Name one other country where there is a better system? China? Yemen?Syria? Russia? I don't think so.

Your post made me think of this scene from The Newsroom. We have a damn good political system, but only when compared to other systems. We still have massive issues though and one of them is the "civil war politics"* that causes the major parties to hack away at each other to the point where nobody feels they can rely on them any more.

Just because we have a good system doesn't mean we can't strive to have an even better one.

* I feel dirty for using "civil war politics" in a sentence....

Huntergonzo

realdanbreen wrote: »

What p1sses me off is people who have a complex about being Irish or about living in Ireland.

I always find that phrase interesting, it's so incredibly broad and vague yet people who use it seem to think it's a profound statement, what the hell does it mean dan?

realdanbreen wrote: »

Fact is we are blessed to be living in a democracy where the electorate decide who represents us in parliament. Name one other country where there is a better system? China? Yemen?Syria? Russia? I don't think so.

Why did you pick those countries, why not another democracy? I can't say I know specifically which country has a better election system than us (I'm not well read on world election structures) but there's bound to be a few contenders, although I would say Syria probably isn't one of them.

You're obviously trying to make the point that we're lucky we can choose our representatives because people in other countries can't. Well to retort to that as articulately as I can, ahem, how does their suck, make our suck not suck?

robdonn

Huntergonzo wrote: »

I can't say I know specifically which country has a better election system than us (I'm not well read on world election structures) but there's bound to be a few contenders, although I would say Syria probably isn't one of them.

You're obviously trying to make the point that we're lucky we can choose our representatives because people in other countries can't. Well to retort to that as articulately as I can, ahem, how does their suck, make our suck not suck?

Although it doesn't use any particular nations for examples, I love CGP Grey's series on Politics in the Animal Kingdom.

Absolam

realdanbreen wrote: »

What p1sses me off is people who have a complex about being Irish or about living in Ireland. Fact is we are blessed to be living in a democracy where the electorate decide who represents us in parliament. Name one other country where there is a better system? China? Yemen?Syria? Russia? I don't think so.

No, I love living in a democracy, and I've yet to see a more workable version that the type we use (though I'd like to). What irritates me is it the particular quirk of the Irish that stops us from saying to politicians "You didn't do what you said you would last time, I don't care if you say it's not your fault, you had your chance and you're not getting a vote this time".

robdonn

Absolam wrote: »

No, I love living in a democracy, and I've yet to see a more workable version that the type we use (though I'd like to). What irritates me is it the particular quirk of the Irish that stops us from saying to politicians "You didn't do what you said you would last time, I don't care if you say it's not your fault, you had your chance and you're not getting a vote this time".

What if a politician says, and can show, that they tried to do what they said they would?

Absolam

On the one hand, I'm not unamenable to persuasion. On the other, if I voted for them so that they'd do something I wanted done, having demonstrated an inability to do it, why vote for them again?

robdonn

Absolam wrote: »

On the one hand, I'm not unamenable to persuasion. On the other, if I voted for them so that they'd do something I wanted done, having demonstrated an inability to do it, why vote for them again?

The makeup of a government changes (at least recently) with every election, what may not have been possible during one term could be possible in the next.

Kiwi in IE

Absolam wrote: »

On the one hand, I'm not unamenable to persuasion. On the other, if I voted for them so that they'd do something I wanted done, having demonstrated an inability to do it, why vote for them again?

I understand why voters would feel this way, but I don't entirely see it the same way. I have two red line issues (I'm sure you can guess what from our previous discussions), and whoever I vote for would have to agree with my position on those two issues. Of those who reflect my position, I then chose who I think most suitable for office, based on their entire manifesto. Due to the complexity in this country of both issues, I don't expect that any person/party that I vote for will have the ability to deliver in line with their stated positions, particularly if they are a junior coalition partner, but I want voices in government who will represent that position, regardless of whether or not they gain the ability to effectively act on it. If every candidate were totally opposed to where I stand with my two main issues, or if all who reflected my position were a total disaster for the country in other areas, I would abstain from voting (and probably move immediately).

realdanbreen

Absolam wrote: »

No, I love living in a democracy, and I've yet to see a more workable version that the type we use (though I'd like to). What irritates me is it the particular quirk of the Irish that stops us from saying to politicians "You didn't do what you said you would last time, I don't care if you say it's not your fault, you had your chance and you're not getting a vote this time".

Well I'm Irish, Tipperary in fact, and I have never suffered from any 'quirk' that would prevent me from talking straight and saying what's on my mind.

recedite

Absolam wrote: »

No, I love living in a democracy, and I've yet to see a more workable version that the type we use..

Interestingly, the Athenians who invented democracy would consider our system to be a form of oligarchy, because its more or less the same small set of people controlling the Dail year after year.
The system we have for choosing a jury (ie random, but with a competency check) is similar to the original democratic system called sortition which was used for selecting officers to oversee the running of the state. Big decisions were made by direct democracy, ie by referendum.

KingBrian2

recedite wrote: »

Interestingly, the Athenians who invented democracy would consider our system to be a form of oligarchy, because its more or less the same small set of people controlling the Dail year after year.
The system we have for choosing a jury (ie random, but with a competency check) is similar to the original democratic system called sortition which was used for selecting officers to oversee the running of the state. Big decisions were made by direct democracy, ie by referendum.

Any democracy requires an informed citizenry without which any system is open to abuse.

Absolam

robdonn wrote: »

The makeup of a government changes (at least recently) with every election, what may not have been possible during one term could be possible in the next.

Sure; I'm more inclined to to bet on an unknown with potential than a proven loser though.

recedite wrote: »

Interestingly, the Athenians who invented democracy would consider our system to be a form of oligarchy, because its more or less the same small set of people controlling the Dail year after year.
The system we have for choosing a jury (ie random, but with a competency check) is similar to the original democratic system called sortition which was used for selecting officers to oversee the running of the state. Big decisions were made by direct democracy, ie by referendum.

I don't think it's the system that's oligarchic though; it's the way we've ended up using the system. If at every election we voted out those who hadn't behave as we wished and voted in new TDs, we'd have a reasonable refresh rate. I wonder, given our always on electronic presence that's advancing so rapidly, if we got to the stage where every decision could be taken by referendum pretty much instantaneously, would we end up with better or worse governance.

Jimmy Bottlehead

robindch wrote: »

Make your vote and pray,
that he goes all the way.
There's no time for tae,

with Michael Healy-Rae.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63XaJdZF9cU

I actually find it startling that lowest common denominator tripe like this results in votes.

realdanbreen

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

I actually find it startling that lowest common denominator tripe like this results in votes.

Maybe if he had a private school D4 accent or talked hor$esh1t like some of the 'financial advisors' and developer types it might be more acceptable?

PopePalpatine

realdanbreen wrote: »

Maybe if he had a private school D4 accent or talked hor$esh1t like some of the 'financial advisors' and developer types it might be more acceptable?

What do you think is so great about parish pump politicians that you must derail any discussion critical about them? If I wanted to vote for someone voting on the basis that they were going to serve my area, I'd wait for the local elections.

Cabaal

Interesting events in Waterford today, Data protection complaint made against a guy called John D. Walsh

http://www.wlrfm.com/news-single.php?cat=1&id=61553

A Waterford woman has raised data protection concerns after she was contacted by text from the campaign of pro-life candidate John D. Walsh. The text asked the recipient to give the Christian Democrat first preference, however Amy McCollum says she has no idea how her phone number was gotten. She said she raised the issue with the candidate on his Facebook page, but didn't get a satisfactory answer. Speaking to WLRfm News, John Walsh said that his team had contacted people who had been signed up to the pro-life campaign, but apologised if the recipients were inconvenienced. He also said his campaign won't be sending any more texts.

The women decided to query why she received the text on his facebook page, here's his delightful response:



He since deleted the post, but has since been reposted https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153467348422683&set=o.450301778494407&type=3

Absolam

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I understand why voters would feel this way, but I don't entirely see it the same way. I have two red line issues (I'm sure you can guess what from our previous discussions), and whoever I vote for would have to agree with my position on those two issues. Of those who reflect my position, I then chose who I think most suitable for office, based on their entire manifesto. Due to the complexity in this country of both issues, I don't expect that any person/party that I vote for will have the ability to deliver in line with their stated positions, particularly if they are a junior coalition partner, but I want voices in government who will represent that position, regardless of whether or not they gain the ability to effectively act on it. If every candidate were totally opposed to where I stand with my two main issues, or if all who reflected my position were a total disaster for the country in other areas, I would abstain from voting (and probably move immediately).

I take a different view (strangely enough ). I won't vote for candidates from the main political parties because I know that no matter what they say, the party will do whatever is best for the party regardless of whether it is good for the country, or the people of the country; up to and including sabotaging or reversing good initiatives by other parties. I'll vote for independents who may disagree with me on certain fundamental issues (like abortion or school patronage) if I believe they will honestly represent and advocate on behalf of their constituency, and vote on national & international issues in a way they genuinely believe will be to the benefit of the people, even though I might disagree with how they vote. I want the TDs that represent me to have a genuine desire to be of public service and not be motivated by self interest. Which is probably too much to ask but there you go!

realdanbreen

PopePalpatine wrote: »

What do you think is so great about parish pump politicians that you must derail any discussion critical about them?.

Why do you regard an opinion contrary to your opinion as 'derailing' the discussion?

realdanbreen

PopePalpatine wrote: »

What do you think is so great about parish pump politicians that you must derail any discussion critical about them? If I wanted to vote for someone voting on the basis that they were going to serve my area, I'd wait for the local elections.

Why do you regard an opinion contrary to your own as 'derailing' the discussion?

Bristolscale7

realdanbreen wrote: »

Why do you regard an opinion contrary to your own as 'derailing' the discussion?

Your tirade against D4 nabobs (although I'm sympathetic) qualifies as derailing.

Bristolscale7

Paddy Power is giving 8/13 odds that the next government will be FF/FG. FG minority is the next closest but by a solar system at 6/1.

realdanbreen

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

Your tirade against D4 nabobs (although I'm sympathetic) qualifies as derailing.

Tirade! , you're having a laugh!

Akrasia

Absolam wrote: »

I take a different view (strangely enough ). I won't vote for candidates from the main political parties because I know that no matter what they say, the party will do whatever is best for the party regardless of whether it is good for the country, or the people of the country; up to and including sabotaging or reversing good initiatives by other parties. I'll vote for independents who may disagree with me on certain fundamental issues (like abortion or school patronage) if I believe they will honestly represent and advocate on behalf of their constituency, and vote on national & international issues in a way they genuinely believe will be to the benefit of the people, even though I might disagree with how they vote. I want the TDs that represent me to have a genuine desire to be of public service and not be motivated by self interest. Which is probably too much to ask but there you go!

The whole system is a bit of a mess though, because in the unlikely event that you manage to elect a principled honest publicly minded independent politician, that fact that he/she has these attributes makes it guaranteed that he/she will never have any influence on any of the decisions of the government


The government will occasionally require independents to make up the majority so they can form a government, but they're not going to choose anyone with any principles, they'll choose someone who has a price and can be bought.

They'll choose Michael Healy Rae because they know that he'll vote the way he's told to vote as long as his constituency gets the new schools and roads and grants that he asks for.

PopePalpatine

realdanbreen wrote: »

Why do you regard an opinion contrary to your opinion as 'derailing' the discussion?

JimmyBottlehead was talking about a politician who epitomises the "parish pump"-type independent candidate, and you tried to derail the discussion by bringing in D4 and Ireland's own wannabe "Wolf of Wall Street"-types.

For the record, I don't think someone from either of the latter two groups would be seen dead using country music in their campaign. :pac:

Stealthfins

Akrasia wrote:

They'll choose Michael Healy Rae because they know that he'll vote the way he's told to vote as long as his constituency gets the new schools and roads and grants that he asks for.

That's politics and democracy in a nutshell.

We vote in who's the best person who'll bring positive changes to our locality.

realdanbreen

Akrasia wrote: »

They'll choose Michael Healy Rae because they know that he'll vote the way he's told to vote as long as his constituency gets the new schools and roads and grants that he asks for.

Very silly of them. I hate new schols and roads and grants!

PopePalpatine

realdanbreen wrote: »

Very silly of them. I hate new schols and roads and grants!

I don't think Akrasia was giving out because the Healy-Raes were asking for new schools, roads and grants - just that they want them for Kerry, with little regard for the rest of the country.

lazygal

realdanbreen wrote: »

Very silly of them. I hate new schols and roads and grants!

I hate them too, when they're not provided because of need but because of a vote in Leinster house needing to go the right way.

Kiwi in IE

I'm really not very concerned about whatever candidate I vote for is going to do specifically for this electorate. I am more concerned with national issues in a general election.

Kiwi in IE

Stealthfins wrote: »

We vote in who's the best person who'll bring positive changes to our locality.

Is that not the point of local elections? Should general elections not focus on who is more likely to bring positive changes to the country as a whole?

Kiwi in IE

The longer I am here and the more I know about the way things work, the less I understand about the place. Anyone who votes according to 'family tradition' or 'civil war politics' without any proper consideration for the issues and the manifestos of those they are voting for, need to grow up! How is it rational to vote according to the past while completely ignoring the future?

Jimmy Bottlehead

realdanbreen wrote: »

Maybe if he had a private school D4 accent or talked hor$esh1t like some of the 'financial advisors' and developer types it might be more acceptable?

Maybe if he didn't use a ridiculous song to entertain voters and put forth an articulate agenda, it would be more impressive.

I'm from sligo so country accents don't phase me. Idiotic locally-driven pedants like the Healy-Raes are an embarrassment for both their socially backward views (against marriage equality) and their lack of focus on the bigger national picture.

Kiwi in IE

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

Maybe if he didn't use a ridiculous song to entertain voters and put forth an articulate agenda, it would be more impressive.

I'm from sligo so country accents don't phase me. Idiotic locally-driven pedants like the Healy-Raes are an embarrassment for both their socially backward views (against marriage equality) and their lack of focus on the bigger national picture.

I just looked this twit up. He was responsible for removing the number 13 from car licence plates to 'save the motor industry'. Says it all!

Perhaps this time he should have campaigned to ban three sixes from appearing together in PPS numbers.

Absolam

Akrasia wrote: »

The whole system is a bit of a mess though, because in the unlikely event that you manage to elect a principled honest publicly minded independent politician, that fact that he/she has these attributes makes it guaranteed that he/she will never have any influence on any of the decisions of the government

So all I need is for everyone to forget the civil war and start voting for independents? Simples!

PopePalpatine

Seeing as we're on the eve of the election, I wish there was a thread like this in t'udder forum. It'd be fun watching the Catholic Right trying to balance FF's policy on holding a referendum on the 8th Amendment against their support for the marriage equality referendum, and wailing about how FG betrayed the "pro-life promise". :pac:

Huntergonzo

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Seeing as we're on the eve of the election, I wish there was a thread like this in t'udder forum. It'd be fun watching the Catholic Right trying to balance FF's policy on holding a referendum on the 8th Amendment against their support for the marriage equality referendum, and wailing about how FG betrayed the "pro-life promise". :pac:

It would be fun alright, but I'd imagine there'd be warnings aplenty if we arrived over there with opposing views to theirs.

The religious generally prefer the aul censorship, the little rascals.

Kiwi in IE

Haha one of the ones who has complained on that thread has more posts in A&A than she does in Christianity.

realdanbreen

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Haha one of the ones who has complained on that thread has more posts in A&A than she does in Christianity.

That's probably because the A&A forum is a cosier place what with the small numbers of A&A'S that are out there!

realdanbreen

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

Maybe if he didn't use a ridiculous song to entertain voters and put forth an articulate agenda, it would be more impressive.

I'm from sligo so country accents don't phase me.

Wow! country accents don't 'phase ' you. It's a sign of the inferiority complexes of some around here that they would be influenced by someones accent.

Huntergonzo

realdanbreen wrote: »

That's probably because the A&A forum is a cosier place what with the small numbers of A&A'S that are out there!

Why how many are out there? Is there a definite figure?

seamus

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Is that not the point of local elections? Should general elections not focus on who is more likely to bring positive changes to the country as a whole?

Yes. But many people don't understand this. They vote local politicians to the national parliament on the basis of what they will do for the locality.

It's the very definition of populism, and it's why the Healy-Raes get voted in Kerry - to hell with what's best for the country, I want a well-paved bohreen and a full service hospital in a country town.

Largely the problem was caused by governments in the 1970s and 1980s. They recognised that the path to national elections was in pulling strings at a local level and bullying the local council into doing things for them. So over a number of governments, powers were continually taken from local government and moved to national government until the local councillors were little more than whipping boys and gophers for the local TDs. Local governments had to (and still do) beg the Dail for funding, which meant that the government's constituencies were well funded, while those who had few representatives in government (like Donegal), were continually left out of the loop and underfunded.

That is slowly coming back now, the introduction of local property tax vested a lot more power in the local government, and the ability of TDs to meddle in local affairs is being slowly but surely curtailed because major infrastructural powers - building roads, managing water, building schools - has been moved to national authorities who don't answer to the local TD.

realdanbreen

Huntergonzo wrote: »

Why how many are out there? Is there a definite figure?

What is it with you A/A guys and figures? Rainman wouldn't get a look in with some of you!

Bristolscale7

Voted this morning. I remarked to one of the workers that turn out seemed low and she said the numbers were down. I'm not sure which parties benefit most from low turn out.

Cabaal

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

Voted this morning. I remarked to one of the workers that turn out seemed low and she said the numbers were down. I'm not sure which parties benefit most from low turn out.

Surely its abit too early to comment on voter turnout?

seamus

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

Voted this morning. I remarked to one of the workers that turn out seemed low and she said the numbers were down. I'm not sure which parties benefit most from low turn out.

Would have said it was pretty busy myself for 7:30 in the morning. That said I'm at a new polling station so I've no frame of reference, and the station is very central so would be on a lot of peoples' way to work.

Other stations I passed on the way in were pretty quiet alright.

When things are going well and/or it hasn't been a particularly robust campaign, numbers do tend to be down.

Huntergonzo

realdanbreen wrote: »

What is it with you A/A guys and figures? Rainman wouldn't get a look in with some of you!

Haha ok ok I'm sorry for asking relevant questions, continue on with your conjecture.

sheep?

Isn't it usually in the evening when the turnout is higher? People coming home from work, students back from college etc.

realdanbreen

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

Voted this morning. I remarked to one of the workers that turn out seemed low and she said the numbers were down. I'm not sure which parties benefit most from low turn out.

Made an early start to voting myself as I have a number of votes to cast and Tipperary is a big county.

lazygal

realdanbreen wrote: »

Made an early start to voting myself as I have a number of votes to cast and Tipperary is a big county.

Hi Mattie.

Trent Houseboat

My polling station was very quiet, but this is my first general election going there so I have nothing to compare it too.
If numbers are low, I certainly couldn't blame the weather as I saw a queue out the door of a McDonalds of people looking for a free breakfast.

McMuffin Early, McMuffin Often.