Liverpool v Sunderland Match Thread 3pm kick off

Maximus Alexander

Andersonisgod wrote: »

By saying Rodgers is looking like a better manager every week you are, by proxy, comparing him to Klopp with the insinuation that as Klopp's reputation falls, Rodger's rises. Anyway this isn't a court so I don't particularly care about the semantics of it, I'm watching a match, I know what your point meant, so do you, it was entirely incorrect and poorly conceived.

My claim actually relies on Klopp having a positive reputation, so your response is in fact completely incorrect and poorly conceived. Klopp carrying the reputation he does, yet being unable to coax an improvement out of the same group of players, suggests that Rodgers is actually a better manager than he is given credit for. This claim does not denigrate Klopp. On the contrary, it relies on him being worthy of his reputation. Your comprehension fails you.

Maximus Alexander

emmetkenny wrote: »

Are you refering to Rodgers at the start of the season?

If so Rodgers had far far fewer injuries so maybe the same squad but not the same players on the field.

Fair enough, that may be a valid point if true - I don't keep a close eye on Liverpool's injury list.

TitianGerm

niallo27 wrote: »

Why wasnt the CF distracted by the crowd.

Not sure but he was by far their beat player so was always zoned in and keeping up with play.

Another time in an underage game I saw a parent come onto the field and thump his own kid in the middle of the match. Ref blew up the game as the other team was straight through on goal, more than likely they would have scored and won the game.

Just another example of how outside factors can affect a game.

5starpool

emmetkenny wrote: »

Are those £59 tickets now going to be available in the new stand? And the old seats going up to the £77?

I've put all the ticket information in the superthread.

Ignoring the Cat C games (there were only 3 in the league this season) prices for the Centenary and Main next season (excluding hospitality tickets) will be 55-77. This season for those same 16 Cat A and B games the prices for the entire 2 stands were 51-59. Those are all the full adult prices. Surely you can see why this is a problem? Kop and Anfield Road end are going up less, or reducing in some cases. If it turns out there are 6-7 Cat C games next season (but I doubt it) then it won't be as bad, but even so it's still not good.

They were already too bloody high this season as it was.

TitianGerm

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Fair enough, that may be a valid point if true - I don't keep a close eye on Liverpool's injury list.

Have a quick look at it. Even Klopp is out now with appendicitis

You can only laugh at this stage.

Ordinary man

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Not really at all. It means he put together a very average squad of footballers for a very considerable cost and failed to truly improve these players on the training ground, which is something the really great coaches do. Judging Klopp negatively based on the performance of this squad is naive, trying to enhance Rodgers reputation based on Klopp'a short performance of a squad Rodgers put together and coached for a long time is downright silly.

Why is it silly to judge him? He's been there since october so he knows the squad. He had a transfer window to improve it. He hasn't improved defence or attack. They have a team of international players not journeymen. Lovern, sahko, milner and llanana were capable of putting in big performances every week before they were signed.

When do people judge him and how long does it take for a great coach to improve players on the training ground? He's a very likeable guy with a big reputation but he's not living up to it so far

niallo27

emmetkenny wrote: »

Are those £59 tickets now going to be available in the new stand? And the old seats going up to the £77?

These 56 and 59 pound tickets will now cost 71, 75 and 77 quid. Most of the tickets will be 75 quid.

TitianGerm

5starpool wrote: »

I've put all the ticket information in the superthread.

Ignoring the Cat C games (there were only 3 in the league this season) prices for the Centenary and Main next season (excluding hospitality tickets) will be 55-77. This season for those same 16 Cat A and B games the prices for the entire 2 stands were 51-59. Those are all the full adult prices. Surely you can see why this is a problem? Kop and Anfield Road end are going up less, or reducing in some cases. If it turns out there are 6-7 Cat C games next season (but I doubt it) then it won't be as bad, but even so it's still not good.

They were already too bloody high this season as it was.

I'll have a read of this post now. Thanks for that.

citytillidie

It was nothing to do with the fan protest. The it was all the keeper, he set the wall up badly for the free kick had all year to save it and in not stopping it gave Sunderland all the hope they needed

Andersonisgod

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

My claim actually relies on Klopp having a positive reputation, so your response is in fact completely incorrect and poorly conceived. Klopp carrying the reputation he does, yet being unable to coax an improvement out of the same group of players, suggests that Rodgers is actually a better manager than he is given credit for. This claim does not denigrate Klopp. On the contrary, it relies on him being worthy of his reputation. Your comprehension fails you.

That would be feasible but it completely ignores real life factors like Rodgers recruitment policy was obviously designed to bring in footballers that fit into Brendan Rodger's philosophy therefore performances from that group should be better than they are under a manager who has a radically different outlook on the game. It doesn't take into account the difference in the amount of contact time both coaches have had with this group of players, Klopp has had a few months? Rodgers had a few years, including long pre season trips when a lot of training ground work is done. With this in mind, Rodgers surely should be expected to excel more than Klopp. The most obvious one is also that Klopp hasn't been here very long while Rodgers was given years to prove himself. When you take all of these real life factors into account your argument collapses. You're welcome.

niallo27

Ordinary man wrote: »

Why is it silly to judge him? He's been there since october so he knows the squad. He had a transfer window to improve it. He hasn't improved defence or attack. They have a team of international players not journeymen. Lovern, sahko, milner and llanana were capable of putting in big performances every week before they were signed.

When do people judge him and how long does it take for a great coach to improve players on the training ground? He's a very likeable guy with a big reputation but he's not living up to it so far

Ya it is worrying alright but still way to early to panic. The keeper situation has to be fixed. Today was his fault not the crowds. Totally his.

TitianGerm

Ordinary man wrote: »

Why is it silly to judge him? He's been there since october so he knows the squad. He had a transfer window to improve it. He hasn't improved defence or attack. They have a team of international players not journeymen. Lovern, sahko, milner and llanana were capable of putting in big performances every week before they were signed.

When do people judge him and how long does it take for a great coach to improve players on the training ground? He's a very likeable guy with a big reputation but he's not living up to it so far

He hasn't had many options to change things or really work on his game plans due to injuries and fixture congestion.

He is by far the best manager we could have ever gotten and I'm glad he's at Liverpool.

LVG is a great coach and yet many United players have regressed under him.

It takes time to be fair and he will need to get players of his choosing in before he can be judged. Maybe they didn't buy in January because they felt the players weent right that were available and they didn't want to make the same mistakes again and bring in more average players. For Liverpool we need to improve on our starting 11 and no point in buying for the sake of buying.

Maximus Alexander

Andersonisgod wrote: »

That would be feasible but it completely ignores real life factors like Rodgers recruitment policy was obviously designed to bring in footballers that fit into Brendan Rodger's philosophy therefore performances from that group should be better than they are under a manager who has a radically different outlook on the game. It doesn't take into account the difference in the amount of contact time both coaches have had with this group of players, Klopp has had a few months? Rodgers had a few years, including long pre season trips when a lot of training ground work is done. With this in mind, Rodgers surely should be expected to excel more than Klopp. The most obvious one is also that Klopp hasn't been here very long while Rodgers was given years to prove himself. When you take all of these real life factors into account your argument collapses. You're welcome.

It's well documented that Liverpool decide on transfers by committee, so to blame Rodgers for transfer policy appears misguided. You go on to claim that he had 'years' with the squad, despite the fact that it was constantly in flux, including a swathe of changes in the summer.

The cherry on top is the truly bizarre claim that "With this in mind, Rodgers surely should be expected to excel more than Klopp." Why on Earth would he be sacked at the beginning of October, if what the club should 'surely expect' is that the incoming manager will perform worse than him for the remainder of the season?

Baffling.

Andersonisgod

Ordinary man wrote: »

Why is it silly to judge him? He's been there since october so he knows the squad. He had a transfer window to improve it. He hasn't improved defence or attack. They have a team of international players not journeymen. Lovern, sahko, milner and llanana were capable of putting in big performances every week before they were signed.

When do people judge him and how long does it take for a great coach to improve players on the training ground? He's a very likeable guy with a big reputation but he's not living up to it so far

How long does it take to implement a very extreme, unique brand of football at a new club in a different football culture? Quite a while mate.

This post reeks of the search for instant gratification that makes my stomach turn slightly when I think about the Premier League. It's that search for instant gratification that is a big part of why, when you see the English sides go up against their European counterparts, that they end up looking very basic in comparison. There's no time given, no room allowed to develop a project. That's why coaches like Klopp and Guardiola are brought to clubs, not to supply instant gratification but to develop a project and an identity for a team. Your post screams "I want it all, I want it now!"

monkey9

citytillidie wrote: »

It was nothing to do with the fan protest. The it was all the keeper, he set the wall up badly for the free kick had all year to save it and in not stopping it gave Sunderland all the hope they needed

And it's not like we haven't seen this before. You'd swear it was unlike Liverpool to perform like that. That game finishes two all, walk out or no walk out.

Andersonisgod

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

It's well documented that Liverpool decide on transfers by committee, so to blame Rodgers for transfer policy appears misguided. You go on to claim that he had 'years' with the squad, despite the fact that it was constantly in flux, including a swathe of changes in the summer.

The cherry on top is the truly bizarre claim that "With this in mind, Rodgers surely should be expected to excel more than Klopp." Why on Earth would he be sacked at the beginning of October, if what the club should 'surely expect' is that the incoming manager will perform worse than him for the remainder of the season?

Baffling.

Which Rodgers had a say in and with the members of this board having the knowledge that they are purchasing players for Brendan Rodgers and his brand of football. So yes, this is a Brendan Rodgers squad, as much a Brendan Rodgers squad as you could possibly expect.

Klopp being a free agent will have forced their hand and, as I said on my previous comment on this thread, Klopp is here for a long term project, not for instant gratification. He'll steer them through this season, he'll lay the groundwork for what's to come next season and beyond.

Pighead

Paully D wrote: »

Not very often I'd be unhappy with a point away to Liverpool, but that does nothing for us really. We're still gone.

Ha ha. You have been saying the same thing for the last three years and you've been wrong every time. Have some faith in your team.

Paz-CCFC

monkey9 wrote: »

And it's not like we haven't seen this before. You'd swear it was unlike Liverpool to perform like that. That game finishes two all, walk out or no walk out.

Don't blame the poor lads on €100,000+ a week. Blame the evil bastards on bog standard wages who pay nearly €2,000 a season just to see their team at home.

Hulk Hands

It backfired big time on the fans but I dont blame them for the idea. That stadium has resembled little more than a hovel for years now and fans paying "top team" prices have been treated to restricted views, cramped seating, crap facilities etc. Then as soon as a partial improvement is made, long suffering fans are made to pay? Know a couple of longterm season ticket holders really considering not renewing

Kirby

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

Don't blame the poor lads on €100,000+ a week. Blame the evil bastards on bog standard wages who pay nearly €2,000 a season just to see their team at home.

James Milner was the only player out there on 100k a week.

niallo27

Hulk Hands wrote: »

It backfired big time on the fans but I dont blame them for the idea. That stadium has resembled little more than a hovel for years now and fans paying "top team" prices have been treated to restricted views, cramped seating, crap facilities etc. Then as soon as a partial improvement is made, long suffering fans are made to pay? Know a couple of longterm season ticket holders really considering not renewing

I dont think it backfired myself, it made a point and will probably be in all the papers in the morning.

Fair ****s to the fans. Hopefully they keep up the protest

TitianGerm

niallo27 wrote: »

I dont think it backfired myself, it made a point and will probably be in all the papers in the morning.

It'll be in every paper, on every news report and every radio station.

It will get coverage but I doubt it'll have any effect.

willmunny1990

Klopp more than likely regretting his decision to sign for Liverpool now, its a lose lose for him, i mean what can he realistically achieve that pool fans will be happy with? top four? league even? one is impossible and the other is highly unlikely.

Hes still in his honey mood period where most of the fans wont blame him for whats going on or hold him to account as of yet but that wont last for ever, Liverpool are way off top four quality, mid to low level club and have been for some time but some delusional fans think Klopp will turn water into wine, seriously unlikely and when that reality hits they'll want him gone in order to try and find the next messiah to change their fortune, its a merry go round.

willmunny1990

willmunny1990 wrote: »

Klopp more than likely regretting his decision to sign for Liverpool now, its a lose lose for him, i mean what can he realistically achieve that pool fans will be happy with? top four? league even? one is impossible and the other is highly unlikely.

Hes still in his honey mood period where most of the fans wont blame him for whats going on or hold him to account as of yet but that wont last for ever, Liverpool are way off top four quality, mid to low level club and have been for some time but some delusional fans think Klopp will turn water into wine, seriously unlikely and when that reality hits they'll want him gone in order to try and find the next messiah to change their fortune, its a merry go round.

Could we worse,could be in the bottom half

willmunny1990

RoboKlopp wrote: »

Could we worse,could be in the bottom half

Whats worse than being in the bottom half for a one off season is being a mid table team consistently for years.

Hulk Hands

niallo27 wrote: »

I dont think it backfired myself, it made a point and will probably be in all the papers in the morning.

I meant more because some sections will blame them for the draw. But yeah, should get plenty of coverage

monkey9

RoboKlopp wrote: »

Could we worse,could be in the bottom half

You're best just leaving him to his own devices really.

willmunny1990

willmunny1990 wrote: »

Whats worse than being in the bottom half for a one off season is being a mid table team consistently for years.

Yep mid table for decades even. Sure you know the feeling I'd imagine

mikeym

I should have stopped watching the match after the 77th minute.

Disgraceful to concede 2 goals at Anfield when the Pool were 2-0 up.

If that was Old Trafford the fans would have booed the team while over in Anfield the spineless fans that didnt walk out do nothing.

Utopia Parkway

willmunny1990 wrote: »

Klopp more than likely regretting his decision to sign for Liverpool now, its a lose lose for him, i mean what can he realistically achieve that pool fans will be happy with? top four? league even? one is impossible and the other is highly unlikely.

Hes still in his honey mood period where most of the fans wont blame him for whats going on or hold him to account as of yet but that wont last for ever, Liverpool are way off top four quality, mid to low level club and have been for some time but some delusional fans think Klopp will turn water into wine, seriously unlikely and when that reality hits they'll want him gone in order to try and find the next messiah to change their fortune, its a merry go round.

He hasn't signed a player yet (apart from Grujic who only arrives in the Summer) or even had a pre-season with the team. All in the middle of an injury crisis. Still has a cup final at the end of the month. I think the vast majority will be giving him a bit more time yet.

Even something as simple as a reliable keeper and reliable striker would probably make a big difference to that side. Sure even Leicester were bottom last season for a while.

Umaro

Bizarre that people are saying the protest backfired on the fans.. If anything it proved how important the match-going fans are. Liverpool imploding after the walkout will bring even more attention to it. The protesters have gotten a lot of attention (we're all talking about it anyways!) and I'd say that the Liverpool walkout and the Man City/Leicester result will be the two main headlines of the day.

firemansam4

willmunny1990 wrote:

Klopp more than likely regretting his decision to sign for Liverpool now, its a lose lose for him, i mean what can he realistically achieve that pool fans will be happy with? top four? league even? one is impossible and the other is highly unlikely.

willmunny1990 wrote:

Hes still in his honey mood period where most of the fans wont blame him for whats going on or hold him to account as of yet but that wont last for ever, Liverpool are way off top four quality, mid to low level club and have been for some time but some delusional fans think Klopp will turn water into wine, seriously unlikely and when that reality hits they'll want him gone in order to try and find the next messiah to change their fortune, its a merry go round.

Can you please explain. How Liverpool have been a mid to low level club for some time?

Liverpool fans are rightly agreived with a diabolic transfer policy which has spunked millions on mediocre players, something that past managers played a part in.
With our turn over and the size of the club it's only right that we would not be happy with our current position.

Now maybe you should be more worried about your own club than Coming in here with your concerns about our high expectations....

MaroonAndGreen

firemansam4 wrote:

Liverpool fans are rightly agreived with a diabolic transfer policy which has spunked millions on mediocre players, something that past managers played a part in. With our turn over and the size of the club it's only right that we would not be happy with our current position.

Size of the club? I'm sorry but Liverpool are not a big club anymore. Fan base does not make a club big. Results do.

Even Jamie Carragher admitted Liverpool aren't a big club anymore the day Rodgers was sacked. And its just as bad they are doing under Klopp and don't let a League Cup final appearance fool ye.

monkey9

monkey9 wrote: »

You're best just leaving him to his own devices really.

Why so, hes making a valid point but it sounds like your choosing to bury your head in the sand

IMO It's seems to be a different excuse every week to defend klopp from actually being criticized

niallo27

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Why so, hes making a valid point but it sounds like your choosing to bury your head in the sand

IMO It's seems to be a different excuse every week to defend klopp from actually being criticized

If you read the main thread you will see he was criticized by a lot of posters have the Leicester game. What do you want us to say he should be sacked. He started off with saying liverpool were a mid to low level club which is not true. The fans would be happy to challenge for top 4 and with the size of the club and the investment that can be made whats wrong with that.

firemansam4

MaroonAndGreen wrote:

Size of the club? I'm sorry but Liverpool are not a big club anymore. Fan base does not make a club big. Results do.

MaroonAndGreen wrote:

Size of the club? I'm sorry but Liverpool are not a big club anymore. Fan base does not make a club big. Results do.

This is rubbish. By that reckoning Leicester are a far bigger club now than Liverpool, United and Chelsea?

Good results does not equal big club. What I mean by the size of the club would be turn over and fan Base and Liverpools position this year and previous years is not as high as it should be in relation to the this.

MaroonAndGreen

firemansam4 wrote:

This is rubbish. By that reckoning Leicester are a far bigger club now than Liverpool, United and Chelsea?

No they aren't but when results are consistently average over a 10 year period then I'm sorry but you can't call yourselves a big club.

City and Chelsea are bigger clubs than Liverpool at the moment and I know that's tough to hear for ye but its time to face the facts.

Liverpool's transfer policy is the clearest indication of their true position. Sell Suarez etc and replace him with Lambert, Balotelli etc.

firemansam4

MaroonAndGreen wrote:

No they aren't but when results are consistently average over a 10 year period then I'm sorry but you can't call yourselves a big club.

MaroonAndGreen wrote:

City and Chelsea are bigger clubs than Liverpool at the moment and I know that's tough to hear for ye but its time to face the facts.

MaroonAndGreen wrote:

Liverpool's transfer policy is the clearest indication of their true position. Sell Suarez etc and replace him with Lambert, Balotelli etc.

I never said that Liverpool are a bigger club than city or Chelsea right now. I said our league position should be higher in relation to what our turnover is. We should be at least challenging for top 4 every year.
Liverpools transfer policy is a result of ineptitude more than anything else, and no Liverpool fan should just have to accept it just because you or other rival fans tell us we should

BorneTobyWilde

Dimithy

Andersonisgod wrote: »

How long does it take to implement a very extreme, unique brand of football at a new club in a different football culture? Quite a while mate.

This post reeks of the search for instant gratification that makes my stomach turn slightly when I think about the Premier League. It's that search for instant gratification that is a big part of why, when you see the English sides go up against their European counterparts, that they end up looking very basic in comparison. There's no time given, no room allowed to develop a project. That's why coaches like Klopp and Guardiola are brought to clubs, not to supply instant gratification but to develop a project and an identity for a team. Your post screams "I want it all, I want it now!"

Am i mistaken, or didn't you want Luis Enrique gone?

Andersonisgod

Dimithy wrote: »

Am i mistaken, or didn't you want Luis Enrique gone?

Slight difference in taking over a team where the project has already yielded the emergence of literally the greatest footballer ever and the greatest team that has ever played the sport than there is demanding instant success in a team containing stalwarts like Lucas and Mignolet. But hey, don't let simple reasoning stop you from having a dig. You keep lining them up, I'll keep knocking them down bay-bay!

Sand

willmunny1990 wrote: »

Klopp more than likely regretting his decision to sign for Liverpool now, its a lose lose for him, i mean what can he realistically achieve that pool fans will be happy with? top four? league even? one is impossible and the other is highly unlikely.

Hes still in his honey mood period where most of the fans wont blame him for whats going on or hold him to account as of yet but that wont last for ever, Liverpool are way off top four quality, mid to low level club and have been for some time but some delusional fans think Klopp will turn water into wine, seriously unlikely and when that reality hits they'll want him gone in order to try and find the next messiah to change their fortune, its a merry go round.

I agree, in that I was very surprised Klopp took the job. Its a bad move for him when you consider he was coming out of a terrible season at Dortmund. His reputation is somewhat fragile on the back of that so I thought he would wait for a club that would give him a real chance at success in the short term. He had done his time at a club financially outmatched by a huge rival like Munich. Since he took the role at Liverpool Chelsea appointed Hiddink, Real appointed the novice Zidane and Bayern (unlikely, but possible) have lined up Ancellotti. Klopp could have waited and traded on his reputation to get one of those jobs and have a much better chance at silverware.

There was a lot of understandable joy when Klopp got the role with a squad many Liverpool fans felt were under-performing under Rodgers and could get top 4 with 29 games to play. But since then apart from a short term boost, Klopp has actually got less points per game than Rodgers did from the same players. They are further off the top than they were when Klopp took over. And Klopp doesn't seem to be able to get a consistent performance out of these players anymore than he could from the Dortmund team he built in his last season. To put Klopps performance in context, after 17 PL games his team have earned 23 points. Moyes had 28 points after his first 17 PL games with United in 13/14.

I think Klopp will be forgiven for almost all problems this season. The fans like him. The media like him. Rodgers is a useful scapegoat. But Liverpool don't look like top 4 material this season and they are faced with the harsh reality of trying to sign top 4 quality players whilst not being close to top 4 themselves. I expect Liverpool will get a short term boost in the summer from signings (like Firminho and Benteke last summer), but if Liverpool don't start strong Klopp will very quickly be under pressure.

Utopia Parkway

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

Size of the club? I'm sorry but Liverpool are not a big club anymore. Fan base does not make a club big. Results do.

Even Jamie Carragher admitted Liverpool aren't a big club anymore the day Rodgers was sacked. And its just as bad they are doing under Klopp and don't let a League Cup final appearance fool ye.

Are Chelsea a big club? Their recent results are awful. Or are they merely a club that got very lucky? Otherwise they'd be Brentford or Fulham. Sure you know that too.

Mr.Crinklewood

niallo27 wrote: »

I dont think it backfired myself, it made a point and will probably be in all the papers in the morning.

Fair play to the fans, only saw a few if the papers ( back page only ) . Protest does not seem to be mentioned.

On a side point. ..hoe did Firmino play?

Only watching Match of the day now. ...looked decent.