Limerick city absolutely booming

Mr. TTime

Had a lovely family day in town last Sunday - we had hoped to go out to curraghchase for a walk but idiot here had a few too many on Sat night and left the car in town. So we decided to have our walk in the city instead and walked across Sarsfield bridge down to the Treaty stone, turned around and followed the river as far as Shannon bridge then back around and into the city where we had a lovely coffee - beautiful weather helped but it showed me the potential the city has as a place to stroll around and take in the sights. Still a few blackspots and unsightly buildings along the river but they are slowly being refurbished / knocked.

zulutango

Vanquished wrote: »

Absolutely. Parking and general access to it is nowhere near as big an issue as some people like to portray it as. Personally I've never had an issue finding parking in town. There are heaps of multi-storeys, not to mention on street spaces. Those who bleat on about it are typically just the serial whinge brigade who expect to be able to park up outside the shop, throw on the hazards and return 20 minutes later. The amount of this nonsense that I witnessed over the weekend on O'Connell Street, William Street, Shannon Street, Parnell Street was just absolutely pathetic!

Now clearly we should be encouraging people to use public transport as much as is feasible to get in to town but as has been mentioned before the standard and reliability of the bus service is just not up to scratch. No sign of the next phase of the bus lane on O'Connell Avenue, no sign of the Childers Road or Ennis Road lanes either. 12 years after they were first planned!

The city centre also needs to become a far more attractive environment for people to spend time in. We need more and better public spaces, improved footpaths, greater variety of services, more employment, more residential accommodation and without a doubt a far greater variety of retail.

I wouldn't be so dismissive of the parking / general access argument. It isn't that it's hard to find parking or that it takes particularly long to get into the city centre. It's certainly no worse than other Irish cities and indeed it's probably a lot better than most. The argument is really that, even though it's not bad, if you're a suburban dweller then it's just easier to opt for heading to the Crescent or other out of town shopping centre.

The real problem is that the people, for the most part, overwhelmingly live in the suburbs or beyond and that they need cars in the first place.

Vanquished

zulutango wrote: »

I wouldn't be so dismissive of the parking / general access argument. It isn't that it's hard to find parking or that it takes particularly long to get into the city centre. It's certainly no worse than other Irish cities and indeed it's probably a lot better than most. The argument is really that, even though it's not bad, if you're a suburban dweller then it's just easier to opt for heading to the Crescent or other out of town shopping centre.

The real problem is that the people, for the most part, overwhelmingly live in the suburbs or beyond and that they need cars in the first place.

It's a factor but I don't buy it as the principal impediment to people coming in to the city centre.

Galway and Cork both have overwhelmingly suburban populations along with large out of town shopping complexes yet they both have higher city centre footfall levels than Limerick. Galway must be the most car dependant and poorly planned city in Ireland yet its city centre is not suffering like ours is!

MrJones2013

Vanquished wrote: »

It's a factor but I don't buy it as the principal impediment to people coming in to the city centre.

Galway and Cork both have overwhelmingly suburban populations along with large out of town shopping complexes yet they both have higher city centre footfall levels than Limerick. Galway must be the most car dependant and poorly planned city in Ireland yet its city centre is not suffering like ours is!

The fact that both these cities have University campuses more or less in the city centre probably helps. When there are college events going on they are more or less happening in the city centre where down here in Limerick they are isolated and happening out in UL, it's a pity but hopefully this might be addressed when the student accommodation promised in Limerick 2030 is implemented. These students will need amenities like cinemas etc to get them to stay in the city centre after college hours though!

zulutango

Vanquished wrote: »

It's a factor but I don't buy it as the principal impediment to people coming in to the city centre.

Galway and Cork both have overwhelmingly suburban populations along with large out of town shopping complexes yet they both have higher city centre footfall levels than Limerick. Galway must be the most car dependant and poorly planned city in Ireland yet its city centre is not suffering like ours is!

Galway is a chaotic mess but it has a huge tourist footfall and a good sized university and also an IT quite near the centre. Those are the things that sustain the city centre, as far as I can see. It has its fair share of out of town retail centres too. The same applies to Cork of course. Nether are good models to follow, in my opinion.

Aragneer

I agree with what you guys have been saying about there being very few fun things to do on a 'day out' in the city. I moved from Castletroy to an O'Connell Street apartment two months ago and I really love the city. I love the nice weather and the business of the place but walking down town and seeing a bazillion euro shops and cheap phone shops really puts me off.

The Milk Market is a lovely thing for an hour or two but there needs to be more places for youths, especially as with nothing to do, they sit on street corners and are just annoying and intimidating. A bowling alley, cinema, even a roller jam (like the one in Castletroy) would be good.

There are a lot of empty or useless buildings in the city that could have so much potential. Limerick is a lovely city on a sunny day when everyone is cheerful but these gross buildings bring it down.
Sad days.

Vanquished

MrJones2013 wrote: »

The fact that both these cities have University campuses more or less in the city centre probably helps.....

zulutango wrote: »

Galway is a chaotic mess but it has a huge tourist footfall and a good sized university and also an IT quite near the centre. Those are the things that sustain the city centre, as far as I can see...

Yeah there's absolutely no doubt that the proximity of third level colleges to a city centre makes a massive difference and we have to acknowledge that we are at a disadvantage on that front. Having said that the two other main regional cities still attract greater levels of consumers/shoppers or whatever you want to call them in to their city centres despite also having predominantly suburban populations and similar development characteristics to Limerick.

I'm not saying that these are "models" to follow either though. It's about trying to examine why they appear to have been more successful in attracting greater numbers in to their centres. Both have worse traffic issues than Limerick yet it does not impact upon peoples desire to access those respective city centres. In the case of Cork the vastly improved retail offering in the city centre over the last decade or so has definitely increased its attractiveness and vibrancy. Indeed there are yet further developments to come on stream on that front in the near future too. Limerick is badly lacking in this regard and there is no doubt that this needs to be addressed along with the issues I've mentioned earlier if we are going to create and sustain the vibrant, bustling, energetic, successful city centre that we all want.

zulutango

We must be neighbours so! You know we're in a tiny minority? I'm also on O'Connell Street. I think the future of the upper part is as a residential street, which is what it used to be of course. That means getting the traffic off it, somehow, and making it a more liveable space with wide footpaths, cycle lanes, benches, etc. Catherine Street's future should be the same.

MrJones2013

Vanquished wrote: »

.....if we are going to create and sustain the vibrant, bustling, energetic, successful city centre that WE all want.

We all want it, do the city/county council want it and are we ever going to get it?

Aragneer

zulutango wrote: »

We must be neighbours so! You know we're in a tiny minority? I'm also on O'Connell Street. I think the future of the upper part is as a residential street, which is what it used to be of course. That means getting the traffic off it, somehow, and making it a more liveable space with wide footpaths, cycle lanes, benches, etc. Catherine Street's future should be the same.

Hey there neighbour! I am on the upper part, loving it really (apart from the main water pipe bursting at the weekend and having our water turned off for a while!).

What do you think of them transforming the upper part back to a more residential area? I think wider footpaths and benches would look great around it, although for some reason I feel it would look quite separate from the rest of the city since narrow paths are kind of a thing.

Also, on another note, what are all the coloured benches and areas in the city centre for? Is this part of Limerick 2020 or something? It is kind of pretty, will look nice when spring and summer are in full swing!

zulutango

Aragneer wrote: »

Hey there neighbour! I am on the upper part, loving it really (apart from the main water pipe bursting at the weekend and having our water turned off for a while!).

What do you think of them transforming the upper part back to a more residential area? I think wider footpaths and benches would look great around it, although for some reason I feel it would look quite separate from the rest of the city since narrow paths are kind of a thing.

Also, on another note, what are all the coloured benches and areas in the city centre for? Is this part of Limerick 2020 or something? It is kind of pretty, will look nice when spring and summer are in full swing!

I absolutely love living in the city centre too. I just wish more of my friends did too, but they're gradually seeing the light and moving in one by one.

Realistically most of the Georgian part of the city should be residential, not just O'Connell and Catherine Street. It won't become that until it's an attractive for people to move there, and that won't be the case until the streets themselves are nice place to be (i.e. traffic removed, etc).

Which coloured benches do you mean? The ones on Cruises Street?

Vanquished

MrJones2013 wrote: »

We all want it, do the city/county council want it and are we ever going to get it?

In theory yes the council do want to improve and possibly transform the city centre. But you would be forgiven for being cynical and sceptical over whether the ability, desire or commitment exists to actually bring it to fruition. Especially given the shambolic mismanagement of the city centre by successive City Councils over the decades!

MrJones2013

Vanquished wrote: »

In theory yes the council do want to improve and possibly transform the city centre. But you would be forgiven for being cynical and sceptical over whether the ability, desire or commitment exists to actually bring it to fruition. Especially given the shambolic mismanagement of the city centre by successive City Councils over the decades!

My comment was probably more out of frustration than anything, I know the council do want to improve the city centre in theory. It's a pity we are not on this forum raving about how good our city is when it has the potential to be a great regional city.

You go to cities in other countries and they are far more progressive than any similar sized cities here and it makes you dream of what could be!

zulutango

I honestly think don't there's an unwillingness on the part of the council. I think they just don't really know what they're doing. They're obsessed with attracting retail in and don't realise that they'd get a lot of retail in by default if they concentrated their efforts on making it a 'liveable' city centre. It doesn't surprise me, because not a single senior official in the city council actually lives in the centre. They just don't understand the nature of the problem, and therefore they don't understand how to fix it.

Townie_P

Vanquished wrote: »

It's a factor but I don't buy it as the principal impediment to people coming in to the city centre.

Galway and Cork both have overwhelmingly suburban populations along with large out of town shopping complexes yet they both have higher city centre footfall levels than Limerick. Galway must be the most car dependant and poorly planned city in Ireland yet its city centre is not suffering like ours is!

Galway gets people in because it's largely pedestrianised, with the correct mix of pubs, restaurants, cafés and retail. The narrow streets, al fresco dining/drinking and street artists all create a great athmosphere. It's a lovely, albeit quite small, city to visit. Limerick could easily replicate this if it really wanted to. And Limerick should be aiming to go after Galway's visitors now with the Wild Atlantic Way in place, so plenty of tourists to market to. There is a ready made supply of tourists there anyway, you only have to look at Adare and Killarney to see that. Unfortunately most of these (busloads of) tourists are bypassing the city centre. Hopefully pedestrianisation will start to change that. Anyone who knows Limerick would have headed to or enjoyed the Locke Bar area on a summers evening - it's a lovely spot. Basically you're looking at replicating that experience across the city.

Vanquished

MrJones2013 wrote: »

My comment was probably more out of frustration than anything, I know the council do want to improve the city centre in theory. It's a pity we are not on this forum raving about how good our city is when it has the potential to be a great regional city.

You go to cities in other countries and they are far more progressive than any similar sized cities here and it makes you dream of what could be!

Very true. You visit even comparably sized cities in Europe and can only be impressed by the quality and attractiveness of their streets and public spaces, how well maintained the buildings are and how useful and efficient the public transport facilities are. By and large they get the balance right. There is no reason why we can't achieve a similar result here.

Unfortunately Irish cities compare pretty poorly to those on the continent and I think a lot of it has to do with a lack of civic pride and awareness here. We just don't look after or care about our urban streets and buildings to the same degree that other European countries do. Also more often than not we resign ourselves to a defeatist attitude and spend more time complaining about why we can't make such improvements or how they would never work here. Generally finding ways to constantly re-invent the wheel. Commissioning report after report instead of being proactive and actually getting on with it!

JCX BXC

Vanquished wrote: »

Very true. You visit even comparably sized cities in Europe and can only be impressed by the quality and attractiveness of their streets and public spaces, how well maintained the buildings are and how useful and efficient the public transport facilities are. By and large they get the balance right. There is no reason why we can't achieve a similar result here.

Unfortunately Irish cities compare pretty poorly to those on the continent and I think a lot of it has to do with a lack of civic pride and awareness here. We just don't look after or care about our urban streets and buildings to the same degree that other European countries do. Also more often than not we resign ourselves to a defeatist attitude and spend more time complaining about why we can't make such improvements or how they would never work here. Generally finding ways to constantly re-invent the wheel. Commissioning report after report instead of being proactive and actually getting on with it!

Although we preform rather poorly in comparison to some of Europe, look at cities like Naples, Charleori, Liverpool are all very poor cities too.

ongarboy

I saw this article in the Sunday Times at the weekend which reports on efforts to revitalize the heart of Limerick city. Nothing really new on what's already been reported over the last couple of years (Hanging Gardens/ Opera site etc). Hope we'll see some visible evidence of cranes, construction sites soon as is the case already in Dublin where all the long idle construction sites are buzzing again.

Mods: I couldn't find an online link for this newspaper so just screen grabbed the article (hope the font is visible!). Hope that's acceptable.

Aragneer

zulutango wrote: »

I absolutely love living in the city centre too. I just wish more of my friends did too, but they're gradually seeing the light and moving in one by one.

Realistically most of the Georgian part of the city should be residential, not just O'Connell and Catherine Street. It won't become that until it's an attractive for people to move there, and that won't be the case until the streets themselves are nice place to be (i.e. traffic removed, etc).

Which coloured benches do you mean? The ones on Cruises Street?

Yeah, most of my friends are students (as I am a postgrad) so they stick near the college areas but I think the apartments and pricing of the city are actually very good

That is very true, if I think of it now, when my boyfriend and I were looking for our apartment, we were very sceptical about a lot of streets and O'Connell and Catherine Street were the only ones we found appealing on multiple levels!

Yes! They are those coloured benches! :P

Vanquished

ongarboy wrote: »

I saw this article in the Sunday Times at the weekend which reports on efforts to revitalize the heart of Limerick city. Nothing really new on what's already been reported over the last couple of years (Hanging Gardens/ Opera site etc). Hope we'll see some visible evidence of cranes, construction sites soon as is the case already in Dublin where all the long idle construction sites are buzzing again.

That's all great Conn but it's time for action now. We've had enough talk and promises!

They're still looking for a joint venture partner so the exact nature of the redevelopment won't be clear until they're on board. The detailed design phase will obviously take some time so we're looking at this time next year at least before work will actually get underway. All we've got at the moment is an indicative layout sketch. A design concept for the Arthur's Quay area is included also.

Pseudorandom

When I lived in Limerick I would have said most of the people I knew lived in or near the city centre (riverpoint, strand apartments, ennis road etc). Sort of surprised to see people here saying it isn't popular, it certainly was among my peer group (mostly single professionals admittedly, like most city centres I imagine people tend to move to the suburbs when they have families)

sleepyman

Vanquished wrote: »

That's all great Conn but it's time for action now. We've had enough talk and promises!

They're still looking for a joint venture partner so the exact nature of the redevelopment won't be clear until they're on board. The detailed design phase will obviously take some time so we're looking at this time next year at
least before work will actually get
underway. All we've got at the moment
is an indicative layout sketch. A design
concept for the Arthur's Quay area is
included also.

Yeah.I've mentioned it before but I'm worried that we'll just see the same announcements renounced.When is the banging gardens due to start?Someone mentioned that they saw some people at it

Townie_P

Carnacalla wrote: »

Although we preform rather poorly in comparison to some of Europe, look at cities like Naples, Charleori, Liverpool are all very poor cities too.

Liverpool is looking great these days, city centre is top class. The Liverpool One redevelopment has been a huge game changer and is what the Opera Centre in Limerick was originally meant to be.

Vanquished

sleepyman wrote: »

Yeah.I've mentioned it before but I'm worried that we'll just see the same announcements renounced.When is the banging gardens due to start?Someone mentioned that they saw some people at it

Work is due to restart in May apparently. Although they previously stated that the builders would be back on site before the end of 2015.

It'll be interesting to see what sort of design the scheme architects have come up with for the new corner building to replace that old shed. Sensitive enough site beside the historic hanging garden structure.

zulutango

Vanquished wrote: »

Work is due to restart in May apparently. Although they previously stated that the builders would be back on site before the end of 2015.

It'll be interesting to see what sort of design the scheme architects have come up with for the new corner building to replace that old shed. Sensitive enough site beside the historic hanging garden structure.

Do you know if Healy's back on the job? I guess it's more than likely given they were originally on it. It was a shame the whole rear of the GPO was levelled that time. It probably should have been a protected structure.

leakyboots

sleepyman wrote: »

When is the banging gardens due to start?Someone mentioned that they saw some people at it

I thought there was a facility for that sort of carry-on out in Ballysimon already?

zulutango

There's too much talk about renovating buildings. I think we all want to see that happening but we're jumping the gun. Who'll put a lot of money into a building in a run-down area? Very few investors or landlords would take that risk, especially when the rents in these areas are so low.

What we (i.e. the Council) could do, however, is put our focus and energies into making really lovely streets. If we do that then a lot more people will see the areas as up and coming and will take the chance on investment. There's a precedent for this on Clancy and O'Callaghan Strands, of course. Both were quite run down but the excellent public realm works over there breathed life into those areaa. Since then a number of the older houses have been bought and tastefully renovated and the strands have become very popular lesiure areas. Businesses have either opened or greatly benefitted too. I very much doubt if the Curraghower Pub or Jack Mondays would exist in their current form (or at all) if these public realm works hadn't been carried out. The rents over there are the highest in the city centre these days whereas they used to be among the lowest.

We could apply the same thinking to the like of Upper O'Connell Street, Catherine Street and the smaller city centre streets and the rejuvenation of Georgian Limerick would automatically roll on from there. These could be absolutely beautiful residential streets, which is what they were designed to be. At the moment they're only appealing to a certain demographic and that'll continue to be the case until we take the above approach.

Cookiemunster

Isn't that already being done? William St, Catherine St., Thomas St., Bedford Row already finished. Plans in place for Patrick St/O'Connell St./The Crescent and Wickham St./Parnell St./Davis St.

Vanquished

zulutango wrote: »

Do you know if Healy's back on the job? I guess it's more than likely given they were originally on it. It was a shame the whole rear of the GPO was levelled that time. It probably should have been a protected structure.

They're looking for conservation architectural services at the moment so Healy Partners could well be in the mix for that.

The warehouse type structures along Post Office Lane were demolished along with possibly some of the interlinking buildings but the main red brick former GPO fronting Henry Street is pretty much fully intact from what I remember. I hope that's the case anyway.

zulutango

Vanquished wrote: »

They're looking for conservation architectural services at the moment so Healy Partners could well be in the mix for that.

The warehouse type structures along Post Office Lane were demolished along with possibly some of the interlinking buildings but the main red brick former GPO fronting Henry Street is pretty much fully intact from what I remember. I hope that's the case anyway.

Yes, the main front was retained but the rear of that was demolished, i.e. a good chunk of the original building. I remember walking down Post Office Lane and watching it being ripped down and being disappointed but thinking that at least a good development was taking its place. A few months later the site was abandoned. Utterly depressing stuff.