Largest Towns Which are NOT Rail Connected?

sting60

elastico wrote: »

Swords is adjacent to the dart though. Less than 2km to a station? It might not have a station in its own name, but 2km is pretty close.

2km my God you're obviously not from the area.Swords/Final also incorporates the Airport.

cgcsb

The Chieftain wrote: »

Swords is really just a suburb of Dublin. I think it would be better and keep things more fair if we limit the discussion to traditional separate towns.

Swords is not continuously urban with Dublin and indeed is older than Dublin. It has become somewhat of a commuter town, but so has Navan and Drogheda.

And the other large Dublin Suburbs are somewhat rail connected, although with poor service. Lucan being a notable exception.

n97 mini

cgcsb wrote: »

Leitrim is technically unserved as Carrick's station is technically in Roscommon.

Dromod station is in Co Leitrim.

cgcsb

oh right, thought that was in Longford.

n97 mini

cgcsb wrote: »

oh right, thought that was in Longford.

No, it was called the Cavan & Leitrim Railway for a reason!

Victor

elastico wrote: »

Swords is adjacent to the dart though. Less than 2km to a station? It might not have a station in its own name, but 2km is pretty close.

4.9 km from Malahide Station to Swords Garda Station: https://www.google.ie/maps/dir/53.4503258,-6.1563582/53.456459,-6.2214179/@53.4549897,-6.2260956,13z

3.2 km to Waterside (they'll claim to be Malahide).

7.9-8.2 km to Brackenstown / Applewood.

n97 mini

elastico wrote: »

Swords is adjacent to the dart though. Less than 2km to a station? It might not have a station in its own name, but 2km is pretty close.

2km from Malahide station will still have you in Malahide, around Seabury.

Del.Monte

n97 mini wrote: »

Dromod station is in Co Leitrim.

Dromod has two stations - scandalous waste of resources.

tabbey

cgcsb wrote: »

Swords is of course the winner here with a 69,000 population (2011 census) and growth projections putting it into 6 digits in the near future. What makes Swords situation worse is it's proximity to and therefor commuter demand for trips to Dublin City and Dublin Airport. The other towns in question are generally not commuter towns, perhaps with the exception of Navan.

I am at a loss to understand where this figure came from.

The CSO census total for the town of Swords in 2011 is 36,924.

Any figure like 69,000 clearly includes either Portmarnock and Malahide, or Donabate and Lusk, both areas served by commuter rail.

I am not denying that Swords is large, and with decent planning, would have had a heavy rail mainline with commuter service, years ago. (City - Santry - Airport - Swords - Drogheda)

tabbey

Del.Monte wrote: »

Dromod has two stations - scandalous waste of resources.

It must be admitted that the C&L station has a rather limited service, principally a ghost train.

tabbey

Banjoxed wrote: »

Gee Victor, why the tetchiness? Counties are as good a shorthand for subregions in Ireland as anything. In any case a substantial chunk of Ireland is rail free, bounded by the Sligo line, the Belfast line and the Belfast-Derry line. And that was everything to do with the Ulster Unionist politics of the fifties and sixties, and the refusal of the Lemass government in 1965 to fund CIE's rights to run trains from Dublin to Dungannon, Omagh, Strabane and Derry via Portadown. Donegal could have been connected to the network by the simple expedient of retaining and modernising Strabane to Letterkenny.

The closure of the Derry road (Portadown - Derry) in 1965 was indeed a tragedy, worse than West Cork or Mallow - Waterford.

My understanding is that at the time, CIE considered buying this line, but were shocked by the degree of investment needed to restore the track to a viable standard. Of course, this may have been an excuse to avoid adding to their problems.

Letterkenny had two narrow gauge lines towards Derry, the L&LSR twisting along the shore of Lough Swilly, and the CDR snaking through the hills. Even if widened to 1600 mm gauge, neither could compete.
If the Derry Road had survived, and a more direct route ran between Strabane and Letterkenny, there might be a slight chance of resurrection, but unfortunately, there are too many obstacles to restore the GNR route and no prospect of a new line to Letterkenny.

cgcsb

The west Cork line is a tragedy. Would I be correct in saying that at the time of closure, operations on the line were indeed making money? or was it a basket case

If it were in place today, I'd imagine it'd be the most popular non ex. Dublin line. When you consider the volume of Cars and tourists, even in winter weather. You'd also have commuters.

cgcsb

The west Cork line is a tragedy. Would I be correct in saying that at the time of closure, operations on the line were indeed making money? or was it a basket case

If it were in place today, I'd imagine it'd be the most popular non ex. Dublin line. When you consider the volume of Cars and tourists, even in winter weather. You'd also have commuters.

end of the road

cgcsb wrote: »

The west Cork line is a tragedy. Would I be correct in saying that at the time of closure, operations on the line were indeed making money? or was it a basket case

If it were in place today, I'd imagine it'd be the most popular non ex. Dublin line. When you consider the volume of Cars and tourists, even in winter weather. You'd also have commuters.

CIE claimed it was losing 20000£ at the time. apparently all the businesses along it wanted to use it to transport their goods but CIE were having none of it. i should bet some sort of politics was involved in the decisian to close (and definitely in the decisian to completely destroy the lot) (all though in fairness ditto the small branches)
it took a few years for its complete destruction, the lifting train as in many other cases, used as a symbolic gesture to let the people know that everything will be done to insure their railway services can never be reinstated.
of course it could have been so much worse, CIE could have taken out the east cork lot as well

Grandeeod

cgcsb wrote: »

The problem with the motorway is that it doesn't really do you much good when you are spending up to an hour driving between Cabra Cross and the City Centre and you can't park anywhere anyway. Or if you get a bus that has to merge with normal traffic at Cabra.

A frequent DART service would reliably get you from Navan to City Centre in a little over an hour total each day.

You are assuming that Navan commuters all work in the city centre. Prior to the M3 and upgraded M50, it was a nightmare just getting to Blanch. Since then the shouting in Navan has stopped. It was never going to be built and will never be built although I personally think it should have been before the alignment was systematically destroyed, adding substantially to the cost.

roundymac

cgcsb wrote: »

The west Cork line is a tragedy. Would I be correct in saying that at the time of closure, operations on the line were indeed making money? or was it a basket case

If it were in place today, I'd imagine it'd be the most popular non ex. Dublin line. When you consider the volume of Cars and tourists, even in winter weather. You'd also have commuters.

Two trains a day in either direction at times which were unsuitable, a bit like what's going on the Limerick-Ballybrophy line.

n97 mini

tabbey wrote: »

It must be admitted that the C&L station has a rather limited service, principally a ghost train.

Same could be said a lot of the time for the train operating from the mainline station!

Losty Dublin

Del.Monte wrote: »

Dromod has two stations - scandalous waste of resources.

One and a quarter; pushing it to call it two

Cookie_Monster

If we discount the Luas then Tallaght at 71k pop (2011) would be the largest, no?

Victor

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

If we discount the Luas then Tallaght at 71k pop (2011) would be the largest, no?

Contiguous to Dublin.

cgcsb

roundymac wrote: »

Two trains a day in either direction at times which were unsuitable, a bit like what's going on the Limerick-Ballybrophy line.

Similar carry on between Limrick junction and Waterford. Plenty of people would make the Dublin-Cahir/Clonmel journey if only the trains were there, you can see how packed the expressway buses are.

Jamie2k9

cgcsb wrote: »

Similar carry on between Limrick junction and Waterford. Plenty of people would make the Dublin-Cahir/Clonmel journey if only the trains were there, you can see how packed the expressway buses are.

I agree but they would only make a fraction of costs to break even.

Many of the towns listed would never be viable, 10,000 people is nothing worth talking about. Getting a service level to meet demand and break ever at the worst isn't possible.

If you look at railways in NI, the majority of lines have major towns with a population of 25,000+ up to 80,000 in most cases. Lisbon, Larne, Derry, Coleraine, Antrim and Banger which is why NIR works fairly well and there is a decent service level.

Letterkenny is the only town in ROI with any sort of suitable population for a link however as discussed it would never be viable. Plenty in NI which could work but rail expansion down here outside commuter in Cork/Dublin and prehaps Galway. Better to grow numbers along current routes and expand them.

metrovick001

Co. Meath railway stations:
Enfield,
M3 Parkway,
Dunboyne,
Laytown,
Gormonston

cgcsb wrote: »

Leitrim is technically unserved as Carrick's station is technically in Roscommon. Other than that you have:

Donegal, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Cavan and Monaghan.

That's somewhat due to the economic devastation caused by partition and the troubles.

Meath and Armagh are only served by stations on the periphery of their county boundaries.

KCAccidental

roundymac wrote: »

Two trains a day in either direction at times which were unsuitable, a bit like what's going on the Limerick-Ballybrophy line.

which of course lead to the falsehood of the Save the West Cork Railway campaign driving to a meeting in Dublin instead of taking the train. Hard to take the train when the timetable is totally unsuitable.

My nomination is Ballincollig in Cork about 18,000 population. the old line is now the ring road.

Irish Steve

Ashbourne, (12,000), Ratoath (10,000) and Dunshaughlin (10,000 plus). A rail link from Dunshaughlin to Ratoath and Ashbourne, then via Thornton Hall (when they decide what to build there), and the airport to Dublin would be a huge help to a lot of people.

If you want a real flight of fantasy,:D there would also be a link from Dunshaughlin to Pace, and if the connector from Heuston to the rest of the network was built, then there's a complete circle route that would cover a large population, and the airport.

Won't happen any time soon, even if there was a sackful of "spare" money lying around, there isn't the vision for it.

Cookie_Monster

Victor wrote: »

Contiguous to Dublin.

So? Swords is too pretty much, golf club to airport to Collinstown bus park is all development linking it directly with Dublin city. Or Malahide, Portmarnock, Drumnigh, Snugborough. Take your pick.

feargale

When the M50 was being constructed it would have been very easy and cheap to dig a tunnel in the middle of it to take a metro right around the city and very close to the airport with which it could easily have been connected,as well as connecting to the Luas etc..

armaghlad

Craigavon Co Armagh. Over 50 years since the "new city" was built, it still doesn't have so much as a railway halt, despite the main Belfast - Dublin / Belfast - Newry commuter routes passing right through. Depending on how you look at it, the greater Craigavon area only has 2 stations for a population of c.60k; or Craigavon itself (pop c.16k) has none.

Terrontress

Portadown's station sign used to say "Portadown Craigavon West".

Carawaystick

elastico wrote: »

Swords is adjacent to the dart though. Less than 2km to a station? It might not have a station in its own name, but 2km is pretty close.

It's 5km from the Old Boro to Malahide Dart station by footpath.
And the vast majority of housing in Swords is west of the Old Boro.

tabbey

Terrontress wrote: »

Portadown's station sign used to say "Portadown Craigavon West".

And Lurgan was known as Craigavon East.

In between there was in the early seventies, Goodyear halt, to serve the Goodyear tyre factory.

Goodyear located their factory along the rail line in the expectation that NIR would transport some of their output. They were astonished when NIR told them that Northern Ireland Carriers was the UTA subsidiary with freight monopoly.

The Goodyear factory, on the down side, is long closed, and partially used for warehousing and small businesses.

cml387

cgcsb wrote: »

Similar carry on between Limrick junction and Waterford. Plenty of people would make the Dublin-Cahir/Clonmel journey if only the trains were there, you can see how packed the expressway buses are.

Nobody in their right mind will trundle all the way to Limerick Junction or Waterford to then get a train to Dublin.Whenever Clonmel people take the train they drive to Thurles or Kilkenny and get the train there.

cgcsb

cml387 wrote: »

Nobody in their right mind will trundle all the way to Limerick Junction or Waterford to then get a train to Dublin.Whenever Clonmel people take the train they drive to Thurles or Kilkenny and get the train there.

That could easily change with upgrade works between Portarlington and Portlaoise going ahead and another round between Portlaoise and Limrk jnct it's likely that a Heuston-Limrick jnct time would be under an hour. A 30 minute shuttle to Cahir or 45 minute to Clonmel may well be an attractive prospect. Granted Thurles-Dublin would likely be about 50 minutes at that stage.

tabbey

cgcsb wrote: »

That could easily change with upgrade works between Portarlington and Portlaoise going ahead and another round between Portlaoise and Limrk jnct it's likely that a Heuston-Limrick jnct time would be under an hour. A 30 minute shuttle to Cahir or 45 minute to Clonmel may well be an attractive prospect. Granted Thurles-Dublin would likely be about 50 minutes at that stage.

I will believe it when I see it.

About 1970, a report in the Herald, or some other paper, said Dublin to Cork by rail would soon be down to 1 hour, 50 minutes. It still has not happened.

I think the basis of the papers prediction was a proposed increase in maximum speed from 75 mph to 90 mph, after cwr was laid. The journalist assumed that average speed would be the same as maximum, hence 165 miles in 110 minutes.

A2LUE42

Does Galway/Ennis to Limerick count at the moment, as part of it has been flooded for ages it seems.

savagethegoat

cgcsb wrote: »

That could easily change with upgrade works between Portarlington and Portlaoise going ahead and another round between Portlaoise and Limrk jnct it's likely that a Heuston-Limrick jnct time would be under an hour. A 30 minute shuttle to Cahir or 45 minute to Clonmel may well be an attractive prospect. Granted Thurles-Dublin would likely be about 50 minutes at that stage.

Dublin to Limerick Junc is roughly 120 miles. How on earth can you believe that any train in Ireland will ever go fast enough to average 120 mph?

Jamie2k9

cgcsb wrote: »

That could easily change with upgrade works between Portarlington and Portlaoise going ahead and another round between Portlaoise and Limrk jnct it's likely that a Heuston-Limrick jnct time would be under an hour. A 30 minute shuttle to Cahir or 45 minute to Clonmel may well be an attractive prospect. Granted Thurles-Dublin would likely be about 50 minutes at that stage.

Unless you have trains that can operate 200mph under an hour to Limerick J with any upgrades is not possible.

The Chieftain

savagethegoat wrote: »

Dublin to Limerick Junc is roughly 120 miles. How on earth can you believe that any train in Ireland will ever go fast enough to average 120 mph?

There is a general election campaign going on. if you don't like 120 miles in 60 minutes, would 30 suit you better? Done!

tabbey

savagethegoat wrote: »

Dublin to Limerick Junc is roughly 120 miles. How on earth can you believe that any train in Ireland will ever go fast enough to average 120 mph?

106 and a bit miles, still a lot, not going to happen in foreseeable future.

Chimichangas

tabbey wrote: »

The closure of the Derry road (Portadown - Derry) in 1965 was indeed a tragedy, worse than West Cork or Mallow - Waterford.

My understanding is that at the time, CIE considered buying this line, but were shocked by the degree of investment needed to restore the track to a viable standard. Of course, this may have been an excuse to avoid adding to their problems.

Letterkenny had two narrow gauge lines towards Derry, the L&LSR twisting along the shore of Lough Swilly, and the CDR snaking through the hills. Even if widened to 1600 mm gauge, neither could compete.
If the Derry Road had survived, and a more direct route ran between Strabane and Letterkenny, there might be a slight chance of resurrection, but unfortunately, there are too many obstacles to restore the GNR route and no prospect of a new line to Letterkenny.

cgcsb wrote: »

The west Cork line is a tragedy. Would I be correct in saying that at the time of closure, operations on the line were indeed making money? or was it a basket case

If it were in place today, I'd imagine it'd be the most popular non ex. Dublin line. When you consider the volume of Cars and tourists, even in winter weather. You'd also have commuters.

end of the road wrote: »

CIE claimed it was losing 20000£ at the time. apparently all the businesses along it wanted to use it to transport their goods but CIE were having none of it. i should bet some sort of politics was involved in the decisian to close (and definitely in the decisian to completely destroy the lot) (all though in fairness ditto the small branches)
it took a few years for its complete destruction, the lifting train as in many other cases, used as a symbolic gesture to let the people know that everything will be done to insure their railway services can never be reinstated.
of course it could have been so much worse, CIE could have taken out the east cork lot as well

Was only reading about the Beecher Report?? yesterday. Tragic mistaken use of economics to decide to close down railways in the UK, and then FF copied the same tactics from what I was reading. Disasterous especially in terms of remote locations and the over-reliance and love affair with cars and lorries that has us disliking public transport and not recognising the relatively equal connectivity it gave everyone.
Will we ever get it back?

armaghlad

Chimichangas wrote: »

Was only reading about the Beecher Report?? yesterday. Tragic mistaken use of economics to decide to close down railways in the UK, and then FF copied the same tactics from what I was reading. Disasterous especially in terms of remote locations and the over-reliance and love affair with cars and lorries that has us disliking public transport and not recognising the relatively equal connectivity it gave everyone.
Will we ever get it back?

A number of nationalist towns lost their railways in the north, whether there were motives at play other than economics is often questionable. Strabane, Omagh, Dungannon all lost their stations. The road network was never upgraded to cope, not until recent years. To add insult to injury the line from Derry to Belfast via Coleraine was left to rot and is only in recent years undergoing work to make it fit for purpose. A look at road and rail infrastructure in NI is depressingly lopsided.

feargale

Chimichangas wrote: »

Was only reading about the Beecher Report?? yesterday. Tragic mistaken use of economics to decide to close down railways in the UK, and then FF copied the same tactics from what I was reading. Disasterous especially in terms of remote locations and the over-reliance and love affair with cars and lorries that has us disliking public transport and not recognising the relatively equal connectivity it gave everyone.
Will we ever get it back?

The public's love affair with cars was the biggest problem. Delegations from various parts of the country travelled to Dublin to try to persuade Todd Andrews to reverse his decision to close their railway line - usually travelling to Dublin by car. Up to about 1960 the government could have developed a comprehensive public transport system by imposing heavy taxes on private cars, but the moment has passed.