Is a dog owner liable if his dog bites cat?

JimiTime

I witnessed a dog (Off the lead and out of control), attack a local cat in my garden recently. The poor cat was in a bad way afterward (big puncture and seemingly unable to use back legs in the immediate aftermath). Dog would not listen to owner, and then owner sped off in car.
I'm now curious, is he liable for the vets bill for the cat? Its also on the dangerous dog breed list and wasn't muzzled neither. I know if it attacked a person, there would be serious consequences, but IIRC, cats are almost considered vermin in terms of the law?

Nody

Can't remember the exact legal details but I think the cat would be counted as property of the owner and hence the dog's attack would be damage to property which he'd be liable for.

ganmo

JimiTime wrote: »

I witnessed a dog (Off the lead and out of control), attack a local cat in my garden recently. The poor cat was in a bad way afterward (big puncture and seemingly unable to use back legs in the immediate aftermath). Dog would not listen to owner, and then owner sped off in car.
I'm now curious, is he liable for the vets bill for the cat? Its also on the dangerous dog breed list and wasn't muzzled neither. I know if it attacked a person, there would be serious consequences, but IIRC, cats are almost considered vermin in terms of the law?

as far as cats are concerned the law sees it at your possession so damage done to your possession by someone else's possession you are entitled to chase for compo...or a conviction

intheclouds

Property damage, he might be able to do the dog owner on trespassing in his garden too.

VickieVexed1

It astounds me that a living being can be considered 'property'.

Our garden is well fenced off to keep the little man safe (JRx), but we get so many cats visiting and on more than one occasion he's chased them and almost caught them. It would kill me if they got hurt.

OP, I hope the poor cat survived the attack.

intheclouds

VickieVexed1 wrote: »

It astounds me that a living being can be considered 'property'.

Farm animals are property and it is legal to shoot a dog worrying sheep.

I dont know where the law stands on someone injuring or killing a dog in their own front garden that is damaging their property (cat, duck, rabbit etc...), although I imagine that the dog owner is going to be the one in strife due to not having the animal under control.

ganmo

VickieVexed1 wrote: »

It astounds me that a living being can be considered 'property'. .

:eek:

grass and flowers are alive too :P

JimiTime

Thanks for the feedback guys. I have a cat myself, so it got me wondering.

are you serious

Not saying I think they are but they are legally classed as vermin..

Plus the "dangerous dog breed list" that doesn't exist

Knine

If an out of control dog attacked & injured my cat then the owner will be paying vet bills, the same way if they attacked my dog.

JimiTime

are you serious wrote: »

Not saying I think they are but they are legally classed as vermin..

Plus the "dangerous dog breed list" that doesn't exist

This is the list I refer to:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1998/si/442/made/en/print

muddypaws

JimiTime wrote: »

This is the list I refer to:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1998/si/442/made/en/print

It isn't called the dangerous dog list, and dogs covered by that legislation aren't called dangerous dogs, that is a different thing altogether. May not seem important, but unfortunately it does have consequences, as use of the wrong language leads people to think that all dogs covered by this legislation are aggressive and/or dangerous, when they most certainly aren't.

andreac

JimiTime wrote: »

This is the list I refer to:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1998/si/442/made/en/print

Restricted breeds list, totally different to a Dangerous dogs list.

intheclouds

Do we all have to be so pedantic? 3 posts pointing it out!

Everyone knows what is being referred to whether or not someone used the term "Restricted Breeds List" or "Dangerous Dogs List"?

Now we are all off topic discussing the name of the list that we all know is being referred to.

marmurr1916

intheclouds wrote: »

Do we all have to be so pedantic? 3 posts pointing it out!

Everyone knows what is being referred to whether or not someone used the term "Restricted Breeds List" or "Dangerous Dogs List"?

Now we are all off topic discussing the name of the list that we all know is being referred to.

The use of precision in language is necessary in law and a legal issue is being discussed here.

Would you prefer if speed limit laws said 'Yerrah not so fast now there boss' instead of setting out precise upper speed limits?

Complaining about people insisting on precision in a thread about legal issues is pretty fecking stupid. :rolleyes:

intheclouds

marmurr1916 wrote: »

The use of precision in language is necessary in law and a legal issue is being discussed here.

Would you prefer if speed limit laws said 'Yerrah not so fast now there boss' instead of setting out precise upper speed limits?

Complaining about people insisting on precision in a thread about legal issues is pretty fecking stupid. :rolleyes:

We are not in a court room here and the list being referred to has no bearing on the dog damaging someones property.

Id thank you not to personally insult me either.

sillysmiles

are you serious wrote: »

Not saying I think they are but they are legally classed as vermin..

Cats are legally classed as vermin????

loveisdivine

This is one of the things that scares me most about taking our cat out for walks on her lead. She's great at walking on the lead and really enjoys it, but most people with dogs won't have socialised them around cats at all, so I know if we came across an off lead dog it would probably be straight after her.

I can't blame people though as cats on leads is a fairly new thing, its just a shame that we can't walk her the way people walk dogs.

Knine

loveisdivine wrote: »

This is one of the things that scares me most about taking our cat out for walks on her lead. She's great at walking on the lead and really enjoys it, but most people with dogs won't have socialised them around cats at all, so I know if we came across an off lead dog it would probably be straight after her.

I can't blame people though as cats on leads is a fairly new thing, its just a shame that we can't walk her the way people walk dogs.

It is not about socialising dogs with cats. Some breeds of dogs will happily live with their own cats but would see outsiders as prey. I am as careful as I can be with my own dogs but they are terriers & will likely try to get any cat they come across. Personally I would not walk a cat on a lead where there are likely to be dogs.

Cherry Blossom

sillysmiles wrote: »

Cats are legally classed as vermin????

Pet cats who have an owner, particularly if they are microchipped are the property of that person. I think the vermin thing is something someone said on here once and it stuck. I think the vermin thing refers to feral cats that have no legal classification, the same as rats & mice as neither are classed as indigenous wildlife. I might be wrong but I don't know of any law that lists species of vermin. If someone knows otherwise, they should feel free to post a link to the relevant legislation.

Knine

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Pet cats who have an owner, particularly if they are microchipped are the property of that person. I think the vermin thing is something someone said on here once and it stuck. I think the vermin thing refers to feral cats that have no legal classification, the same as rats & mice as neither are classed as indigenous wildlife. I might be wrong but I don't know of any law that lists species of vermin. If someone knows otherwise, they should feel free to post a link to the relevant legislation.

I think the same. I do know that a friend's cat was badly injured by dogs & the dogs owners had to pay a very hefty vet bill. The cat was in the owners front garden.

intheclouds

Knine wrote: »

I think the same. I do know that a friend's cat was badly injured by dogs & the dogs owners had to pay a very hefty vet bill. The cat was in the owners front garden.

I know someone this happened to and the poor cat was killed by 2 dogs. The cat was in his own front garden.

Because the cat was killed there were no vet bills, but what value is there on a cats life in law? Probably very little - they hadnt paid for the cat. They didnt pursue legally because they felt itd be a waste of time and money.

The dog owner btw, shrugged and said "dogs chase cats - thats life". He was a neighbour.

Knine

My own cat was killed in a similar way.

Going back more then 10 years now there was an issue where I live. 2 locals were allowing their dogs out to roam each morning. The dogs both foxhound types would seek out cats & kill them. After 3 cats on my road in one morning died, the dogs owners were located & we informed them about what their dogs were up to. Their response was dogs will be dogs. The dead toll mounted up & The dog Warden was informed. It was really horrific. The warden teamed up with The cats protection association or whatever it was called at the time & paid a visit. The owners did not listen so the warden removed the dogs. Dogs killing peoples cats will not be tolerated.

Dial Hard

VickieVexed1 wrote:

Our garden is well fenced off to keep the little man safe (JRx), but we get so many cats visiting and on more than one occasion he's chased them and almost caught them. It would kill me if they got hurt.

That's an interesting one. Our dog caught a cat that was in our back garden a few months back. My sister was in the garden at the time and called the dog away, cat went over the wall and no harm done. But if the dog had actually injured the cat, would there be any comeback seeing as it was in our back garden at the time?

JimiTime

Dial Hard wrote: »

That's an interesting one. Our dog caught a cat that was in our back garden a few months back. My sister was in the garden at the time and called the dog away, cat went over the wall and no harm done. But if the dog had actually injured the cat, would there be any comeback seeing as it was in our back garden at the time?

I don't think there should be, and I say that as a cat owner. If a cat is allowed to roam, these are the environmental dangers it will be exposed to. Out in a public space uncontrolled etc, then yes, but if its in the back garden, you can't expect dog owners to chain them up.

JimiTime

andreac wrote: »

Restricted breeds list, totally different to a Dangerous dogs list.

Why are they restricted? I was always under the impression that it was because they were considered dangerous. As in, if a jack russell goes nuts, someone might get a nip, but if an Akita goes nuts, someone will lose an arm. Is hat not the logic behind it?

loveisdivine

Knine wrote: »

Personally I would not walk a cat on a lead where there are likely to be dogs.

It's difficult to find places where there won't also be dogs being walked.

What am I supposed to do? If I walk her on a lead and she got attacked by an off lead dog, people would probably say I had it coming as "dogs chase cats", if I let her out alone (which I can't because she's deaf, but wouldn't do even if she wasn't) then it would probably still be my fault because she was roaming unsupervised.

So whats left, keep her inside incase someone can't control their off lead dog?

Joeseph Balls

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Pet cats who have an owner, particularly if they are microchipped are the property of that person. I think the vermin thing is something someone said on here once and it stuck. I think the vermin thing refers to feral cats that have no legal classification, the same as rats & mice as neither are classed as indigenous wildlife. I might be wrong but I don't know of any law that lists species of vermin. If someone knows otherwise, they should feel free to post a link to the relevant legislation.

You're right, there is no 'vermin' list anymore. There is a protected species list. Where pet cats come into that I'm not sure. Feral cats would be classed as unprotected.

Knine

loveisdivine wrote: »

It's difficult to find places where there won't also be dogs being walked.

What am I supposed to do? If I walk her on a lead and she got attacked by an off lead dog, people would probably say I had it coming as "dogs chase cats", if I let her out alone (which I can't because she's deaf, but wouldn't do even if she wasn't) then it would probably still be my fault because she was roaming unsupervised.

So whats left, keep her inside incase someone can't control their off lead dog?

I think many dogs even those with great recall would find a cat too tempting so no way would I risk my cat like that.

loveisdivine

Oh I agree and that's why I don't really take her out. I just think it's a shame, she should be able to enjoy a walk just like any dog.

I did ask here before if anyone knew any parks where dogs are required to be on leads at all times but no one knew of anywhere.

In an ideal world we'd have some kind of cool cat park where you can go and sit with your cat and wait for a leaf to blow past!

On topic, if my cat was on my private property or on a lead and she was attacked I would expect the owners to pay.

Knine

I think a compromise for you would be an enclosed outside area where she could get some outside time safely.

I miss having a cat!

Kovu

Different scenarios would have different outcomes regarding responsibility of injuries.
For example if my cat was attacked on our farmland, despite him being a roaming cat, the dog owner would be at fault imo as the dog was on our land and not under control. Same would go for garden etc.
But if my cat way on the neighbours land and their dog attacked it, I would take responsibility as it's a risk I take.
He does follow me on walks but generally leaps into the hedge if a dog or vehicle appears. If I was carrying him in a public area and a dog appeared off leash and tried to jump up at him, I would not hesitate to stop the dog with a kick if needed. (sorry dog owners! )
Kovu also used to chase the neighbours dog out of our garden, I'd expect the same situation to apply if the dog needed stitchss to his face- dog trespassing on our land, owners fault. My cat on some elses/public land, my fault.

If I had seen as the OP describes, I would have got the reg & taken a photo if possible of the dog. Ignoring what your dog just did is irresponsible ownership and shouldn't be ignored.

muddypaws

intheclouds wrote: »

Do we all have to be so pedantic? 3 posts pointing it out!

Everyone knows what is being referred to whether or not someone used the term "Restricted Breeds List" or "Dangerous Dogs List"?

Now we are all off topic discussing the name of the list that we all know is being referred to.

There is also part of that legislation that does refer to Dangerous Dogs, so the two are completely different, not pedantry at all. Under the law, a Jack Russell could be legally known as a dangerous dog if court action had been taken.

JimiTime

Kovu wrote: »

Different scenarios would have different outcomes regarding responsibility of injuries.
For example if my cat was attacked on our farmland, despite him being a roaming cat, the dog owner would be at fault imo as the dog was on our land and not under control. Same would go for garden etc.
But if my cat way on the neighbours land and their dog attacked it, I would take responsibility as it's a risk I take.
He does follow me on walks but generally leaps into the hedge if a dog or vehicle appears. If I was carrying him in a public area and a dog appeared off leash and tried to jump up at him, I would not hesitate to stop the dog with a kick if needed. (sorry dog owners! )
Kovu also used to chase the neighbours dog out of our garden, I'd expect the same situation to apply if the dog needed stitchss to his face- dog trespassing on our land, owners fault. My cat on some elses/public land, my fault.

If I had seen as the OP describes, I would have got the reg & taken a photo if possible of the dog. Ignoring what your dog just did is irresponsible ownership and shouldn't be ignored.

Reg was taken, and Gardai called. He told an old woman to F*** off for asking him to put them on a lead not too long ago, and as a father of young kids, after seeing him lose control like that, and the guy just speeding off and ignoring me, I had no choice.
For those interested, the cat had to be put down. Vet said it was in a lot of pain, broken pelvis, leg and various punctures

intheclouds

JimiTime wrote: »

Reg was taken, and Gardai called. He told an old woman to F*** off for asking him to put them on a lead not too long ago, and as a father of young kids, after seeing him lose control like that, and the guy just speeding off and ignoring me, I had no choice.
For those interested, the cat had to be put down. Vet said it was in a lot of pain, broken pelvis, leg and various punctures

I feel absolutely sick reading this.

Im so sorry for the poor cat and Im so angry about the guy with no control over his dog.

Kovu

JimiTime wrote: »

Reg was taken, and Gardai called. He told an old woman to F*** off for asking him to put them on a lead not too long ago, and as a father of young kids, after seeing him lose control like that, and the guy just speeding off and ignoring me, I had no choice.
For those interested, the cat had to be put down. Vet said it was in a lot of pain, broken pelvis, leg and various punctures

That's good, I realise now that my post might have appeared like I was saying you ignored it. Didn't mean it to sound that way OP

Pity about the cat, but if it was in a lot of pain at least it was put of misery quickly. I hope the Gardai do something now, perhaps you could follow it up and mention it to ISPCA or that & say the gardai were informed about details.

ganmo

if you can ring the local dog warden it'd be good too,
give him the details of the car and what happened and which garda station you reported it too. the guards will do very little without the warden

JimiTime

intheclouds wrote: »

I feel absolutely sick reading this.

Im so sorry for the poor cat and Im so angry about the guy with no control over his dog.

I know. Its his attitude to his dogs previous to this that really annoys me. He's quite an ignorant so and so. He did seem to get a mighty fright himself that one of them acted like this, and seemed a bit stunned that it ran off into the park. I can only hope he realises just why people are nervous that he never even has them on a lead around young children etc. MAYBE, it'll wake him up and he'll change his attitude. The visit from the police should also wake him up to his obligations. Garda seemed quite adamant that he will be severely warned, and that the dogs will be confiscated if he doesn't obey the law. I think some people just get so engrossed in the love for their pets, that they forget that they are actually animals, that can potentially kill someone. My neighbours labrador was attacked by an Akita in the park only two weeks ago, needed stitches etc. He said it was completely out of the blue. Unfortunately, ignorant dog owners will make life harder for responsible dog owners, as these kinds of incidents will just increase the fear of certain breeds.