DCC's plans for College Green

StreetLight

Cars and buses to be banned from large section of Dublin's College Green under radical new plans:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/cars-and-buses-to-be-banned-from-large-section-of-dublins-college-green-under-radical-new-plans-34434391.html

monument

Private car are already banned for most of the day and were going to be banned 24/7 as a given once the Luas Cross City project was approved.... How long are the Indo going to hold onto the past?

seamus

From the Indo's comments section;

My concern is that we are not mature enough as a society to appreciate and maintain such an imaginative plan.

The plaza at Temple Bar at the Central Bank is frequented by a questionable sub-culture, as are many other places available for the general public.

Without enforcement nothing will be sacred from the bog standard members of this land.

:D

Not sure if serious, but it's great piece of comedy either way.

The plan looks great anyway. It'll create a beautiful space, especially in the summer.

noelfirl

(Double post)

noelfirl

I never would have imagined that they would go up a step considering the previous plan was so thinned down to begin with. This is going to cause an epic response by interested parties. I can hear the five alarm press releases being drafted up be the AA/Brown Thomas/NCP even as we speak.

Anybody who has an opinion on this really needs to make sure they get in touch with their councillor because you can be sure that all vested interests on all sides will be.

From my own point of view, and as someone who, when at home, has been a lifelong Dublin bus user, I can see it as being doable, but with a lot of caveats.

At the very least, and after countless years tinkering around the edges, if it goes through, it's a big bold statement with regards to the future of the city.

Chris_5339762

As a car user I hope this goes ahead. That entire area desperately needs to be car, bus (and taxi) free. Imagine restaurants getting a hold of that area on a very sunny weekend. Will be fantastic.

Edit: Christmas market location found

prinzeugen

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

As a car user I hope this goes ahead. That entire area desperately needs to be car, bus (and taxi) free. Imagine restaurants getting a hold of that area on a very sunny weekend. Will be fantastic.

Edit: Christmas market location found

You could count the number of sunny weekends on one hand. And Christmas market? Like the one on Henry St selling fake tat.

And I presume DDC know that not everyone that visits the city centre is able to walk/cycle.

Its going to make visiting the city centre hell for older, less able folk and people with disabilities.

Are the emergency services going to be able to drive through this plaza?

hmmm

This will be great - although I'd go further and get rid of taxi access.

The BOI building really needs to become "something" though - it's a wasted empty space as a bank branch.

magicbastarder

i really think they're pressing way too hard on the accelerator on this one; in the sense that there are so many other (smaller) things they could do, lower hanging fruit, to make the city centre more pedestrian friendly, which would be less controversial.

crushproof

prinzeugen wrote: »

You could count the number of sunny weekends on one hand. And Christmas market? Like the one on Henry St selling fake tat.

And I presume DDC know that not everyone that visits the city centre is able to walk/cycle.

Its going to make visiting the city centre hell for older, less able folk and people with disabilities.

Oh Prinzeugen, have you been to any traditional Christmas markets? Even across the pond, the Manchester Christmas markets outside the town hall are billed as one of the best in Europe - and attract thousands of visitors from all over every Christmas. This can easily be replicated perfectly on College Green - doubt they're been any fake tat :rolleyes:

And I reckon people with disabilities will be delighted to be able get around College Green without running the gauntlet of cars, taxis and buses. There will still be numerous bus stops less than 200 metres away, and of course a LUAS stop. I'm quite certain the planners have thought about this.

monument

magicbastarder wrote: »

i really think they're pressing way too hard on the accelerator on this one; in the sense that there are so many other (smaller) things they could do, lower hanging fruit, to make the city centre more pedestrian friendly, which would be less controversial.

This isn't just a plaza for the sake of making the city pedestrian friendly, they are partly doing this to maximizing the north-south flow of trams, buses and taxis.

The current setup, the traffic all flows at the same time -- so there's only the traffic sequence and pedestrian crossing sequence. With Luas going two-way around TCD, there was a major conflict of movement at the junction -- the northbound trams would make it impossible for traffic to flow at once and it would mean there would have to be 3-4 different sequences.

The bus/bicycle mixed turning lane between the tram tracks outside the TCD gates would be very problematic and likely a safety risk (bicycle-tram conflicts, bus-tram conflicts, bicycle wheels getting caught in tram tracks with buses behind).

prinzeugen wrote: »

You could count the number of sunny weekends on one hand. And Christmas market? Like the one on Henry St selling fake tat.

And I presume DDC know that not everyone that visits the city centre is able to walk/cycle.

Its going to make visiting the city centre hell for older, less able folk and people with disabilities.

Are the emergency services going to be able to drive through this plaza?

Private cars won't fit with taxis, trams and buses. But private cars can already not use the street for most of the day and there's little to no parking in the area covered by the plaza. Taxis, trams and buses will be able to offer access, while access to most/all city centre car parks will be maintained under the wider city centre transport study.

Many older people, less able folk and people with disabilities can and do walk, and/or use bicycles and/or use mobility devices which are allowed to use footpaths or cycle paths.

Yes, emergency services can use plazas -- same as walking/cycling only streets and plazas around the world.

cgcsb

magicbastarder wrote: »

i really think they're pressing way too hard on the accelerator on this one; in the sense that there are so many other (smaller) things they could do, lower hanging fruit, to make the city centre more pedestrian friendly, which would be less controversial.

Avoiding controversy has left Ireland's largest airport without a rail connection. Avoiding confrontation has been the cause of Ireland's deteriorating public realm and infrastructure.

Cookie_Monster

that plan just looks like a horrible sea of concrete to me, why not greenery at all?

edit: the cycle lanes also look bizzare and seem to just dump you in the middle of the luas stop or ped areas without proper consideration to linking them...

Spanish Eyes

The mock up pictures look really great.

I'm going to have a bit of a moan though. Taxis allowed on the PT only corridor? Sorry there seems to be more taxis than private vehicles/vans all over the city, but especially around there. Re route them somewhere else in the area if possible.

I see the buses will be allowed to use the tram tracks WTF? Who will have priority? What happens when the bus stops at a stop and the tram is behind it? We all know what the dwell times are like for boarding and alighting buses FGS.

But maybe more information will come through.

Here is DCC presentation - Looks good to me in general. We might get a bit of our city back at last.

https://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/college-green-presentation-seac-final-1.pdf

Spanish Eyes

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

that plan just looks like a horrible sea of concrete to me, why not greenery at all?

The trees have to go around there in order to open up the vista of a public plaza. At present the trees obstruct the views of the buildings. I'm sure they will put in some nice big flower boxes or something.

This is what it looks like today.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3446811,-6.2594742,3a,75y,203.16h,97.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sF5KoW26cAAchcOOiDmhRlg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Cathmandooo

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

that plan just looks like a horrible sea of concrete to me, why not greenery at all?

I think it could do with flower baskets like they have around the city but I'm glad to see the trees go (never thought I'd be happy to see trees go). The trees around the city block the beautiful buildings and statues we have, particularly around college green.

I love the idea of a Christmas market going on there. Last Christmas there was a lovely market inside the gates of the BOI at college green, they had lovely crafts and a choir.

Happy to see those drawings come to life!

monument

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

that plan just looks like a horrible sea of concrete to me, why not greenery at all?

edit: the cycle lanes also look bizzare and seem to just dump you in the middle of the luas stop or ped areas without proper consideration to linking them...

The design of the plaza is to be opened up to an international competition. The plans generally are draft and just outlines.

The design of the cycle route across the square is to be left up the designers of the plaza.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I'm going to have a bit of a moan though. Taxis allowed on the PT only corridor? Sorry there seems to be more taxis than private vehicles/vans all over the city, but especially around there. Re route them somewhere else in the area if possible.

Yes, taxis will be allowed. If there are issues there can be time restrictions put in place.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I see the buses will be allowed to use the tram tracks WTF? Who will have priority? What happens when the bus stops at a stop and the tram is behind it? We all know what the dwell times are like for boarding and alighting buses FGS.

Buses using tram routes is not an issue -- it's done in the Netherlands, including but not limited to Amsterdam. In Dublin's case, the section of shared roadway will not have bus or tram stops. So, there's no issues with buses stopping or pulling out etc.

Spanish Eyes

monument wrote: »

The design of the plaza is to be opened up to an international competition. The plans generally are draft and just outlines.

The design of the cycle route across the square is to be left up the designers of the plaza.




Yes, taxis will be allowed. If there are issues there can be time restrictions put in place.



Buses using tram routes is not an issue -- it's done in the Netherlands, including but not limited to Amsterdam. In Dublin's case, the section of shared roadway will not have bus or tram stops. So, there's no issues with buses stopping or pulling out etc.

Great info there, that's good to know!

As you say the design is just in draft form at the moment, but it looks very good to me anyway.

starviewadams

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The mock up pictures look really great.

I'm going to have a bit of a moan though. Taxis allowed on the PT only corridor? Sorry there seems to be more taxis than private vehicles/vans all over the city, but especially around there. Re route them somewhere else in the area if possible.

I see the buses will be allowed to use the tram tracks WTF? Who will have priority? What happens when the bus stops at a stop and the tram is behind it? We all know what the dwell times are like for boarding and alighting buses FGS.

But maybe more information will come through.

Here is DCC presentation - Looks good to me in general. We might get a bit of our city back at last.

https://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/college-green-presentation-seac-final-1.pdf

Buses are huge part of this city, more than Luas will ever be. This plan is going to be a nightmare for the already unreliable cross city routes like 13, 40, 27 which will presumably shunted down the traffic choked quays without a second thought. Sickening, but no surprising.

People can pretend they are in Paris or Barcelona on Dublin's few proper sunny days a year, whilst thousands of bus commuters will be stuck in tailbacks on the quays.

prinzeugen

monument wrote: »

Buses using tram routes is not an issue -- it's done in the Netherlands, including but not limited to Amsterdam. In Dublin's case, the section of shared roadway will not have bus or tram stops. So, there's no issues with buses stopping or pulling out etc.

As had been said 1000's of times before, this is Ireland, NOT Holand etc.

Most of mainland Europe was flattened during WW2 so this stuff could be built in.

You cannot do that in Dublin. Unless you demolish it first.

Dardania

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The mock up pictures look really great.

I'm going to have a bit of a moan though. Taxis allowed on the PT only corridor? Sorry there seems to be more taxis than private vehicles/vans all over the city, but especially around there. Re route them somewhere else in the area if possible.

I see the buses will be allowed to use the tram tracks WTF? Who will have priority? What happens when the bus stops at a stop and the tram is behind it? We all know what the dwell times are like for boarding and alighting buses FGS.

But maybe more information will come through.

Here is DCC presentation - Looks good to me in general. We might get a bit of our city back at last.

https://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/college-green-presentation-seac-final-1.pdf

I'm strongly in favour of this pedestrianising - trying to navigate that area by foot is a chore that puts me off.
And totally the city should be public transport centric.

However, from reading that presentation, I'm a little alarmed that it doesn't consider cross city traffic flows. I know college green has been off limits to private vehicles for a while, but would have been reassuring to see some link up with orbital routes or equivalent shown.

To simply shunt all bus stops to the quays without considering the impact on private motorists is a little presumptuous ( and could rile up the likes of the AA who have a strong wordsmith, appealing to the mass of drive time listening voters - could be a death knell to such an ambitious project)

seamus

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

edit: the cycle lanes also look bizzare and seem to just dump you in the middle of the luas stop or ped areas without proper consideration to linking them...

You and I are cyclists and big about enforcing cyclists' right to space, but this is one of the areas where one has to be more fluid with space sharing.
The cycle lanes will likely be somewhat advisory - the plaza will in general be a shared space where cyclists are not required to stick to the lanes nor pedestrians required to stay out of them. Cyclists will just need to slow down for the 30 seconds it takes to wind your way across the plaza and pedestrians will need to be accepting of bikes weaving in and out. There's no reason why cyclists and pedestrians can't share spaces like this for short distances.

Dardania wrote: »

To simply shunt all bus stops to the quays without considering the impact on private motorists is a little presumptuous ( and could rile up the likes of the AA who have a strong wordsmith, appealing to the mass of drive time listening voters - could be a death knell to such an ambitious project)

Look, the days of the private motorist in the city centre are coming to an end and people need to accept that. If you want to cross the city, use an orbital route rather than driving through the centre. The impact of bus stops on the quays will be somewhat moot when one side of the quays eventually becomes closed to private traffic anyway.

Part of the benefit of this activity is making it more difficult for private vehicles. They have no place in a city centre.

pclive

The City Centre plan hasnt gone away large parts of the North and South Quays will be made public transport only.

Time to take the bus!

Dardania

seamus wrote: »

You and I are cyclists and big about enforcing cyclists' right to space, but this is one of the areas where one has to be more fluid with space sharing.
The cycle lanes will likely be somewhat advisory - the plaza will in general be a shared space where cyclists are not required to stick to the lanes nor pedestrians required to stay out of them. Cyclists will just need to slow down for the 30 seconds it takes to wind your way across the plaza and pedestrians will need to be accepting of bikes weaving in and out. There's no reason why cyclists and pedestrians can't share spaces like this for short distances.


Look, the days of the private motorist in the city centre are coming to an end and people need to accept that. If you want to cross the city, use an orbital route rather than driving through the centre. The impact of bus stops on the quays will be somewhat moot when one side of the quays eventually becomes closed to private traffic anyway.

Part of the benefit of this activity is making it more difficult for private vehicles. They have no place in a city centre.

I tend to agree (private cars have no place in a city centre) - my comment is more that how DCC are handling this could lead to possibilty that there's more & more pushback (not to say that change needs to be easy - just they could have made a stronger link to : http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-roads-and-traffic-traffic-dublin/getting-around-dublin)

Edit: For the first time ever, I've looked at this: http://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content//RoadsandTraffic/Traffic/Documents/Outer_Orbital_Route.pdf - I must say, it looks quite impressive. There/s a colouring scheme to what route you're on et al. Must pay attention to it next time I have the misfortune to drive through the city.
Certainly, it looks like they'll need to update the map to show no traffic on College Green if they successfully implement it

cgcsb

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The mock up pictures look really great.

I'm going to have a bit of a moan though. Taxis allowed on the PT only corridor? Sorry there seems to be more taxis than private vehicles/vans all over the city, but especially around there. Re route them somewhere else in the area if possible.

I see the buses will be allowed to use the tram tracks WTF? Who will have priority? What happens when the bus stops at a stop and the tram is behind it? We all know what the dwell times are like for boarding and alighting buses FGS.

But maybe more information will come through.

Here is DCC presentation - Looks good to me in general. We might get a bit of our city back at last.

https://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/college-green-presentation-seac-final-1.pdf

My understanding is that there will be no Dublin Bus stops on that section of luas track and the number of routes using it will be reduced.

Agree taxis should not be permitted, they're the bulk of the traffic using CG now.

cgcsb

starviewadams wrote: »

Buses are huge part of this city, more than Luas will ever be. This plan is going to be a nightmare for the already unreliable cross city routes like 13, 40, 27 which will presumably shunted down the traffic choked quays without a second thought. Sickening, but no surprising.

People can pretend they are in Paris or Barcelona on Dublin's few proper sunny days a year, whilst thousands of bus commuters will be stuck in tailbacks on the quays.

Quays? sure the north quay cycle route will see buses permanently banashed to some magical mystery route around the northside's alleyways. Dublin City staff don't have to use buses they get free City Centre parking.

cgcsb

prinzeugen wrote: »

Most of mainland Europe was flattened during WW2 so this stuff could be built in.

You cannot do that in Dublin. Unless you demolish it first.

A non argument, Amsterdam still retains it's pre war narrow streetscape, as does Brussels, Copenhagen,Munich and even Cologne. Paris, Lyon, Barcelona, Madrid, Milan etc.

Berlin, London and Frankfurt are the only major cities that seen a major change to their central streets after the war. Perhaps Manchester if you're counting that. Belfast was largely cut to sh!t by 1970's motorway fetishists rather than any German aggression.

cgcsb

OSI wrote: »

Looks great, I can just imagine the tourists gleeful faces as they decided whether to go to Spar, Tesco Express or Abercrombie & Fitch to live out their romantic sunny plaza living.

Or probably see the book of kells, the trinners library or the former parliament of Ireland or one of the old banking halls etc.

cgcsb

OSI wrote: »

Which aren't really going to be enhanced by this project are they?

I believe they will, getting in and out of those places can be chaos, pedestrians must cross many lanes of traffic like herded animals. It can be very off putting especially in the summer when massive circles of Spanish clog doorways.

Dodge

cgcsb wrote: »

Dublin City staff don't have to use buses they get free City Centre parking.

A small portion of DCC staff have access to a car park. The majority either use public transport or pay for parking.

Pretty much the same as any city centre business/organisation

crashplan

This will cause chaos for cross city public transport. The many buses that use South Great Georges street and Castle street will all now go where to get to their destinations? Fair enough ban private cars from the area but blocking public transport is a very short sighted idea.

cgcsb

If it were up to me, I'd send more of the George's st buses up Clanbrassil st., Make Capel St, Parliament st, the Christchurch end of Winetavern street bus only and add bus lanes to Greek St and North King/Bolton Street, allowing buses to easily do south west-north east routes. The routes to South East Dublin could use College Green, Westland Row and the double bus lane on Pearse St.

In addition make Bachelor's walk and City Quay bus only and implement pedestrianisation of everything between Grafton St and George's St with provision for cycling through routes and then remove cars from Geroge's st. This will require buying out of some of the car parks.

Spanish Eyes

crashplan wrote: »

This will cause chaos for cross city public transport. The many buses that use South Great Georges street and Castle street will all now go where to get to their destinations? Fair enough ban private cars from the area but blocking public transport is a very short sighted idea.

There is a price to be paid for enhancing the enjoyment of the city.

For buses that use Nicholas Street the plan seems to be to take them down Winetavern Street across the Liffey and up Ormond Quay.

For buses that use SG Georges Street the plan appears to have them turn left at the bottom of that street into Dame Street, down Parliament Street, across the Liffey and down Ormond Quay.

In due course those parts of the North Quays will be PT only as part of separate plan aswell.

It's not perfect, but buses will get to the city centre anyway.

AlanG

What use is a Plaza when two sides of it are going to be a fence at the front of a college and a fence at the front of a bank? we need a plaza but this will remain a place to walk straight past. Not worth the inconvenience unless they work some sort of deal with BoI about the bank building.

cgcsb

I'd like to see BOI gone out of the building and replace it with something like an upmarket department store. Perhaps put more windows in and remove the railings.

TallGlass

Why don't they just throw up a few foot bridges or make tunnels for the cars. A plaza, I can think of much better things to spend the money on!

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

If it were up to me, I'd send more of the George's st buses up Clanbrassil st., Make Capel St, Parliament st, the Christchurch end of Winetavern street bus only and add bus lanes to Greek St and North King/Bolton Street, allowing buses to easily do south west-north east routes.

That removes them all from the south city centre where much of their passengers are going. Look at the numbers boarding/alighting on the SCR and all of the stops between there and Westmoreland Street.

That just is not practical and flies in the face of providing public transport to where people actually want to go to. Anyone heading to St Stephen's Green or the CBD would have a much longer walk for example.

LXFlyer

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

There is a price to be paid for enhancing the enjoyment of the city.

For buses that use Nicholas Street the plan seems to be to take them down Winetavern Street across the Liffey and up Ormond Quay.

For buses that use SG Georges Street the plan appears to have them turn left at the bottom of that street into Dame Street, down Parliament Street, across the Liffey and down Ormond Quay.

In due course those parts of the North Quays will be PT only as part of separate plan aswell.

It's not perfect, but buses will get to the city centre anyway.

I would argue that this is going too far - people have to be able to get around the city efficiently and effectively by public transport and need to be taken to where they want to go without the meandering detours you are outlining above that will involve major cross-city routes having to double back on themselves.

The current detour via Pearse Street has already had an impact on the peak vehicle requirement on certain routes - more buses being required to deliver the same level of service - this nonsense will mean the same. This costs money - will DCC pay for the extra buses?

Spanish Eyes

lxflyer wrote: »

I would argue that this is going too far - people have to be able to get around the city efficiently and effectively by public transport and need to be taken to where they want to go without the meandering detours you are outlining above that will involve major cross-city routes having to double back on themselves.

The current detour via Pearse Street has already had an impact on the peak vehicle requirement on certain routes - more buses being required to deliver the same level of service - this nonsense will mean the same. This costs money - will DCC pay for the extra buses?

There will be no Plaza if buses are allowed down Dame Street and into Westmoreland Street as at present.

If that is to come to fruition, I don't see any alternative routes other than those proposed in the draft plan.

Getting to Dame Street and College Green is only a short walk from the bottom of SG Georges street where it seems new bus stops are to be installed.

The buses that go down Nicholas Street will go down Ormond Quay, and into City Centre. Again, just a short stroll across the Hapenny Bridge to Dame Street and Plaza area.

The buses that go down Pearse Street will go down Tara Street and avoid the College Green area. That is a good move, there is no need for buses to go through College Green and Westmoreland St only to turn left onto Aston Quay, when they could use Tara Street and Burgh Quay.

I know it's not perfect, but at least it could be tried.

monument

starviewadams wrote: »

Buses are huge part of this city, more than Luas will ever be. This plan is going to be a nightmare for the already unreliable cross city routes like 13, 40, 27 which will presumably shunted down the traffic choked quays without a second thought. Sickening, but no surprising.

The city centre transport study includes having bus/bicycle/taxi-only second of the quays. This will more than free up space for the diverted buses and not all buses will be diverted.

The city centre traffic study has been widely discussed and reported on. It's not top secret.

starviewadams wrote: »

People can pretend they are in Paris or Barcelona on Dublin's few proper sunny days a year...

Same excuses were used in Copenhagen which has about the same rainfall and harsher winters than Dublin.

"We're Danes, not Italians, and we are not going to sit around in outdoor cafés..." was said before their extensive changes, but yet you can now find Danes in Copenhagen in outdoor cafes.

Speaking about Italians, a visits to Dublin's Italian quarter kills your argument without need to reference to Copenhagen.

prinzeugen wrote: »

As had been said 1000's of times before, this is Ireland, NOT Holand etc.

Most of mainland Europe was flattened during WW2 so this stuff could be built in.

You cannot do that in Dublin. Unless you demolish it first.

What on earth are you taking about? Did Amsterdam get flattened? Most Dutch city centres are have mostly narrow streets like ours.

Buses and trams shairing a small section of a route without private cars, without major junctions and without stops can be done.

seamus wrote: »

You and I are cyclists and big about enforcing cyclists' right to space, but this is one of the areas where one has to be more fluid with space sharing.
The cycle lanes will likely be somewhat advisory - the plaza will in general be a shared space where cyclists are not required to stick to the lanes nor pedestrians required to stay out of them. Cyclists will just need to slow down for the 30 seconds it takes to wind your way across the plaza and pedestrians will need to be accepting of bikes weaving in and out. There's no reason why cyclists and pedestrians can't share spaces like this for short distances.

Such shared space does not work and it's not just me saying that. Many local city councillors expressed this view yesterday, one or two citied Grand Canal Square as an example where there's loads of complaints.

There will be an even higher volume of bicycles on College Green and higher volumes of pedestrians in conflicting flows -- a mixing works less well, not better, at higher volumes.

crashplan wrote: »

This will cause chaos for cross city public transport. The many buses that use South Great Georges street and Castle street will all now go where to get to their destinations? Fair enough ban private cars from the area but blocking public transport is a very short sighted idea.

South Great Georges street - Left onto Dame Street - right onto Parliament Street - right onto the quays... And the reverse.

cgcsb wrote: »

Quays? sure the north quay cycle route will see buses permanently banashed to some magical mystery route around the northside's alleyways. Dublin City staff don't have to use buses they get free City Centre parking.

The only detour suggested is hardly an alleyway as it is wider than the same section of the quays and the that section is nowhere near this.

On the central sections of the quays, it looks like buses and taxies will be left with two or more lanes with private cars removed. The plaza detours means that's more likely to happen.

Spanish Eyes

Being discussed on Today with Pat Kenny on Newstalk now.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

I would argue that this is going too far - people have to be able to get around the city efficiently and effectively by public transport and need to be taken to where they want to go without the meandering detours you are outlining above that will involve major cross-city routes having to double back on themselves.

The current detour via Pearse Street has already had an impact on the peak vehicle requirement on certain routes - more buses being required to deliver the same level of service - this nonsense will mean the same. This costs money - will DCC pay for the extra buses?

That's like asking:

Will Dublin Bus pay for a rerouting of Luas Cross City so no buses have to be rerouted?

You know better than most that the planned plaza is partly planned to remove junction conflicts from the north-south public transport route along the west side of TCD.

If this was stand alone you might have an argument but there is a plan to restrict traffic on the quays and other sections of the city centre. The Parliament Street route is not even a detour for some buses and is a short 500m detour for Great George's Street routes.

As I've written before: Luas should have went around the east side of TCD (or maybe some fantastical route via the grounds of TCD). But it went the way it did, and we have to deal with that: if anything you should be asking will the RPA/TII or the sanctioning minister/government pay for it?

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

That's like asking:

Will Dublin Bus pay for a rerouting of Luas Cross City so no buses have to be rerouted?

You know better than most that the planned plaza is partly planned to remove junction conflicts from the north-south public transport route along the west side of TCD.

If this was stand alone you might have an argument but there is a plan to restrict traffic on the quays and other sections of the city centre. The Parliament Street route is not even a detour for some buses and is a short 500m detour for Great George's Street routes.

As I've written before: Luas should have went around the east side of TCD (or maybe some fantastical route via the grounds of TCD). But it went the way it did, and we have to deal with that: if anything you should be asking will the RPA/TII or the sanctioning minister/government pay for it?

I will not stop criticising this monument - I'm sorry I fundamentally disagree with you.


The detour around Trinity has already meant longer bus journeys and increased PVR on some of the routes to maintain the existing service despite a double bus lane - I don't see this being any different.


LUAS BXD is down to a political whim and this plaza and diverted bus routes without proper a public transport infrastructure in place is the same.


It's perfectly possible to fit four traffic/LUAS lanes on College Green without causing a northbound conflict for buses off Dame Street - the planners just don't want to do it.

LXFlyer

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

There will be no Plaza if buses are allowed down Dame Street and into Westmoreland Street as at present.

If that is to come to fruition, I don't see any alternative routes other than those proposed in the draft plan.

Getting to Dame Street and College Green is only a short walk from the bottom of SG Georges street where it seems new bus stops are to be installed.

The buses that go down Nicholas Street will go down Ormond Quay, and into City Centre. Again, just a short stroll across the Hapenny Bridge to Dame Street and Plaza area.

The buses that go down Pearse Street will go down Tara Street and avoid the College Green area. That is a good move, there is no need for buses to go through College Green and Westmoreland St only to turn left onto Aston Quay, when they could use Tara Street and Burgh Quay.

I know it's not perfect, but at least it could be tried.

It's perfectly possible to have a plaza on the north side of College Green while retaining two bus lanes on the south side.

magicbastarder

cgcsb wrote: »

Avoiding controversy has left Ireland's largest airport without a rail connection. Avoiding confrontation has been the cause of Ireland's deteriorating public realm and infrastructure.

i really didn't phrase that well; what i meant was that i'm kinda dubious about DCC's commitment to making the city more pedestrian/public transport friendly because they've been ignoring easier, smaller and simpler changes for years, and then come out with a big bang change like this which they know will have the furious letter writers clogging the letters page of the times.

my usual bugbear/example in terms of making the city pedstrian friendly, in a way which will not impact shops is the south william street/castle market area. the footpaths around there are stupidly narrow, and could easily be widened considerably with the loss of only a small - single figures, probably - number of parking spaces. the local shops would probably welcome that. and why there isn't a pedestrian crossing on south william street between the back of powerscourt and castle market, and similar at the entrance to the george's arcade is beyond me.

in short, if the council want us to believe they're committed to making dublin pedestrian friendly, they've not done a great job so far.

Carawaystick

What will happen at this plaza that cannot or does not happen already at the many other open spaces in Dublin?

Smithfield, Wolfe Tone Park, the squares in the university of Dublin, or in Dublin Castle, SSGwest, any of the Georgian squares not in private ownership, etc

Carawaystick

What will happen at this plaza that cannot or does not happen already at the many other open spaces in Dublin?

Smithfield, Wolfe Tone Park, the squares in the university of Dublin, or in Dublin Castle, SSGwest, any of the Georgian squares not in private ownership, etc

Chivito550

Carawaystick wrote: »

What will happen at this plaza that cannot or does not happen already at the many other open spaces in Dublin?

Smithfield, Wolfe Tone Park, the squares in the university of Dublin, or in Dublin Castle, SSGwest, any of the Georgian squares not in private ownership, etc

Ever been to Federation Square in Melbourne? They put on tons of free public events there, nearly every weekend. They also put up big screens for the Australian Open and other big sporting events.

Ever been to any city square in Europe? Christmas markets take place in them for a good 6 weeks each year and the places are buzzing.

There's plenty of things you can do with a public square. It just requires initiation and imagination.

The other places you mentioned are either too small or not in the heart of the city centre.

Mr.Frame

hmmm wrote: »

This will be great - although I'd go further and get rid of taxi access.

The BOI building really needs to become "something" though - it's a wasted empty space as a bank branch.

Why get rid of taxi access? If that was to happen , your taxi fare will only increase

Carawaystick

Just for a comparison
Wolfe Tone square if you pave over the road to the west, is 3150m^2
The College green proposal is 4600m^2
Custom house quay from the loop line down to the next bridge is 4940m^2

Chivito550 wrote: »

Ever been to Federation Square in Melbourne? They put on tons of free public events there, nearly every weekend. They also put up big screens for the Australian Open and other big sporting events.

There's a permanent big screen in Meeting house square that's rarely used, probably little appetite to watch sport on telly outside.

Chivito550 wrote: »

Ever been to any city square in Europe? Christmas markets take place in them for a good 6 weeks each year and the places are buzzing.

6 weeks of use is hardly justification for causing major disruption to public transport 52 weeks of the year. There have been xmas markets in Dublin before.

Chivito550 wrote: »

There's plenty of things you can do with a public square. It just requires initiation and imagination.

I'm asking you to initiate and imagine specific uses that college green solves, that cannot be used in any other space in the city centre.

Chivito550 wrote: »

The other places you mentioned are either too small or not in the heart of the city centre.

SSG is the city centre.

Chivito550

Carawaystick wrote: »

Just for a comparison
Wolfe Tone square if you pave over the road to the west, is 3150m^2
The College green proposal is 4600m^2
Custom house quay from the loop line down to the next bridge is 4940m^2


There's a permanent big screen in Meeting house square that's rarely used, probably little appetite to watch sport on telly outside.



6 weeks of use is hardly justification for causing major disruption to public transport 52 weeks of the year. There have been xmas markets in Dublin before.


I'm asking you to initiate and imagine specific uses that college green solves, that cannot be used in any other space in the city centre.


SSG is the city centre.

Christmas markets are just one of the things that can be held in a square like this. Public concerts, food festivals, artist shows, live sport both on a big screen, and in the actual square itself (things like the Great City Games in Manchester and Newcastle work well, but the list of things you could hold are extensive). The options are endless really. It's about enhancing the city.

Places like the Custom House are devoid of soul, heart, character or whatever else you wan’t to call it. Having a Christmas Market out there is never going to be successful or atmospheric. I lived in Melbourne for 3 years and I can assure you that events like the above only work if they are held right in the city centre, where there is a vibe and buzz about.

Public transport is a concern, but if they plan to make the quays a bus only area, would this not work fairly well?