DCC's plans for College Green

crashplan

monument wrote: »

South Great Georges street - Left onto Dame Street - right onto Parliament Street - right onto the quays... And the reverse.

So all the buses going back out Georges street etc would have to take a right turn off O'Connell bridge on to the south quays to access this route. Just moves the traffic crossing issue from college green to the quays.

listermint

crashplan wrote: »

So all the buses going back out Georges street etc would have to take a right turn off O'Connell bridge on to the south quays to access this route. Just moves the traffic crossing issue from college green to the quays.

Away from where your Tourists are walking... Surely that makes sense.

crashplan

listermint wrote: »

Away from where your Tourists are walking... Surely that makes sense.

But there will be more pedestrian's trying to access the bus routes from the quays with college green closed off and then there is the pedestrians crossing to the northside of the river and you have the luas and northbound buses that would need to be stopped.

Carawaystick

So, you have no specific thing that a College green plaza would solve that no other space in Dublin would?

Dublin has had public concerts in
College Green, Merrion square, both in the square and on the street at the Dead zoo side
Iveagh Gardens has held private ( i.e. pay in) concerts, Food Festivals etc


It's 650m from College green to Custom house quay. That's hardly "out there".

Carawaystick

So, you have no specific thing that a College green plaza would solve that no other space in Dublin would?

Dublin has had public concerts in
College Green, Merrion square, both in the square and on the street at the Dead zoo side
Iveagh Gardens has held private ( i.e. pay in) concerts, Food Festivals etc


It's 650m from College green to Custom house quay. That's hardly "out there".

Chivito550

Carawaystick wrote: »

So, you have no specific thing that a College green plaza would solve that no other space in Dublin would?

Dublin has had public concerts in
College Green, Merrion square, both in the square and on the street at the Dead zoo side
Iveagh Gardens has held private ( i.e. pay in) concerts, Food Festivals etc


It's 650m from College green to Custom house quay. That's hardly "out there".

Every other reasonably big city in Europe has a square right in the centre of their cities, which they make good use of. I believe we need something similar, right in the city centre. 650m away in a fairly dead part of the city doesn't cut it. So, instead of College Green where do you think such a square should be put, which will create similar vibes to what is seen everywhere else in Europe? Or do you simply think we do not need one?

I personally think it would be great to have an open square with free public events taking place each weekend. Something which will bring people into the city centre, and provide an alternative in the "things to do" category than to go to the pub! It's bringing our city into the 21st century, and more in line with our European counterparts.

pclive

crashplan wrote: »

So all the buses going back out Georges street etc would have to take a right turn off O'Connell bridge on to the south quays to access this route. Just moves the traffic crossing issue from college green to the quays.

left turn from Westmoreland Street onto Aston Quay is to be banned making it more pedestrian friendly and the City Centre plan will reduce the through traffic on the south quays

Idbatterim

fo the luas cross city and traffic lanes on college green, could they not have put a cut and cover fly under in?

Carawaystick

Idbatterim wrote: »

fo the luas cross city and traffic lanes on college green, could they not have put a cut and cover fly under in?

The planned (by planned, I mean delayed and watered down) Metro North is to go under there.



@Chivito550, What events which could be run in Dublin city are not run for lack of a "plaza" at College Green?

I've given a list already - Wolfe Tone square, Merrion Square, Dublin Castle, Meeting house square, St Stephen's green, Iveagh gardens, even Parliament Square.

If 650m is too far away ( and it's not - its across the river from the busiest train station in the country, 300m from O' Connell Street; nearer again to luas stops), how do you deal with re-routing bus stops almost as far away, i.e. from Dame st to Batchelor's walk?

If you put on a good draw, people will travel a quarter mile to it.

snickerpuss

I'm worried about where my Northside to Southside buses are going, i.e. 27, 27X, 15. How do I get close to the Grafton St/Merrion Square area which I can easily do now? Walking from the Quays to the far side of St. Stephen's Green or Baggot St will take at least 15 mins by the time I get around Trinity.

What was the point of cross city buses if they're going to sit on the quays half the morning and only go to the far end of Dame St or even worse up by Nicholas Street? And where will I get them home? Walk back to the Northside again? Completely ridiculous plan.

I think the bus is being neglected here in favour of the Luas. It's so frustrating because the cross city buses have been great to use the last few years. Before the cross city buses to get to a main part of city centre, (i.e. Baggot St, Earlsfort Terrace) it was necessary to alight at Amiens St and walk for 20+ mins and now we'll possibly not be far off it again if everything is rerouted.

prinzeugen

snickerpuss wrote: »

I'm worried about where my Northside to Southside buses are going, i.e. 27, 27X, 15. How do I get close to the Grafton St/Merrion Square area which I can easily do now? Walking from the Quays to the far side of St. Stephen's Green or Baggot St will take at least 15 mins by the time I get around Trinity.

What was the point of cross city buses if they're going to sit on the quays half the morning and only go to the far end of Dame St or even worse up by Nicholas Street? And where will I get them home? Walk back to the Northside again? Completely ridiculous plan.

I think the bus is being neglected here in favour of the Luas. It's so frustrating because the cross city buses have been great to use the last few years. Before the cross city buses to get to a main part of city centre, (i.e. Baggot St, Earlsfort Terrace) it was necessary to alight at Amiens St and walk for 20+ mins and now we'll possibly not be far off it again if everything is rerouted.

Sure walk or better cycle.. Even old folks hitting 70/80 years old are able to do it according to someone here... Wont be a issue. Might take longer once all these wonderful cafes open though..

Look at Smithfield.. People can walk through that square without any trouble. Nice, well used open space with all the promised cafes/markets everyday..... Its buzzing. If it looks like wasteland you must have seen it on one of the 364 days feck all is on..

Bray Head

I think this has the potential to turn the area into a very attractive public space. It will be important to make sure (as per photos) that the trees be got rid of and the statue moved somewhere else.

It will mean a major rethink from Dublin Bus or the NTA (whichever is responsible for this now) for routes that run north/south though. On the east side one option is to send more routes via Gardiner St, Westland Row, Stephen's Green etc. There is some spare road space along this corridor.

On the west side I would be a bit more sceptical about using Parliament st, Quays, and Capel st for more buses. You would need to displace a lot of on-street parking and this would not play well with the traders.

Bray Head

I think this has the potential to turn the area into a very attractive public space. It will be important to make sure (as per photos) that the trees be got rid of and the statue moved somewhere else.

It will mean a major rethink from Dublin Bus or the NTA (whichever is responsible for this now) for routes that run north/south though. On the east side one option is to send more routes via Gardiner St, Westland Row, Stephen's Green etc. There is some spare road space along this corridor.

On the west side I would be a bit more sceptical about using Parliament st, Quays, and Capel st for more buses. You would need to displace a lot of on-street parking and this would not play well with the traders.

LXFlyer

Just to post this here as well as in the infrastructure thread:


Dublin Bus have been quoted in the Irish Independent this morning....

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dublin-bus-warns-82-million-passengers-a-year-will-be-impacted-by-capitals-pedestrian-plaza-34439609.html

An extract:

Dublin Bus warned of "potential knock-ons in terms of reliability" which could affect the 82 million passengers a year who travel through the city centre.

"Services through Thomas Street, George's Street and Patrick Street will be affected, and up to 100 buses an hour will need to be re-routed," one source said. "Some car traffic would have to go from the quays and there would need to be traffic management. Could this work? Yes it could. But it's reliant on less car movement and more kerbside space on Aston Quay and Bachelors Walk.

"The issue is where will buses go and will customers get the same level of service? If it doesn't work, we can't go back (to the current system)."

A map showing the impact is included in the article.

Effectively:
Southbound buses from O'Connell Street will have to turn right off O'Connell Bridge onto Aston Quay, then left onto Parliament Street and then either:
- right onto Lord Edward Street
- left onto Dame Street and right onto Georges Street

Parliament Street and Grattan Bridge (Capel Street Bridge) will become two way for buses

Northbound buses from Georges Street will have to turn left onto Dame Street, right onto Parliament Street, cross Grattan Bridge and then right onto the North Quays

Buses coming from Pearse Street heading west will have to turn onto Tara Street and left onto Burgh Quay (left turn from Westmoreland Street onto Aston Quay will be removed).

cgcsb

It wouldn't be so bad if northbound traffic on George's st was Bus only from Stephe St to Dame St and Dame St was bus only between George's st and Parliament st with wider footpaths. Also widening of footpaths on lower capel st.

pclive

cgcsb wrote: »

It wouldn't be so bad if northbound traffic on George's st was Bus only from Stephe St to Dame St and Dame St was bus only between George's st and Parliament st with wider footpaths. Also widening of footpaths on lower capel st.

Northern end of South Great George's Street (from Exchequer St) is to be public transport only so effectively traffic calms Dame Street/Lord Edward St

LXFlyer

pclive wrote: »

That's all part of the plan

Where have you seen that quoted?

I've not seen any suggestion yet that cars would be banned from Dame Street or Georges' Street.

MrMorooka

To play devil's advocate, I was in Kraków last year, and the Old City there is similiar, buses running around the periphery, a railway station at the edge, and just a tram line or two running through the centre. It seems to work there, people walk from the edges in and out. Why wouldn't it work in Dublin, a more pedestrianised core with bus routes circulating around the edges and tram lines running through it?

If we could get integrated ticketing working, you could have people transferring to Luas from buses and using that to get closer to St Stephen's Green/Dawson St areas.

{Also, Kraków had a rail link directly from that Old City to the airport with a fast half-hourly service, but let's not get into that.}

LXFlyer

MrMorooka wrote: »

To play devil's advocate, I was in Kraków last year, and the Old City there is similiar, buses running around the periphery, a railway station at the edge, and just a tram line or two running through the centre. It seems to work there, people walk from the edges in and out. Why wouldn't it work in Dublin, a more pedestrianised core with bus routes circulating around the edges and tram lines running through it?

If we could get integrated ticketing working, you could have people transferring to Luas from buses and using that to get closer to St Stephen's Green/Dawson St areas.

Simply put the LUAS wouldn't have the capacity to take all of those passengers.

listermint

prinzeugen wrote: »

Sure walk or better cycle.. Even old folks hitting 70/80 years old are able to do it according to someone here... Wont be a issue. Might take longer once all these wonderful cafes open though..

Look at Smithfield.. People can walk through that square without any trouble. Nice, well used open space with all the promised cafes/markets everyday..... Its buzzing. If it looks like wasteland you must have seen it on one of the 364 days feck all is on..

Ah yes, Smithfield. right in heart the buzzing city centre, or indeed it you could say its not.... which would be more true. :rolleyes:

Some would say its actually 2km away from the middle of the city. Some...

cgcsb

Smithfield is actually fairly busy these days, perhaps not on a Tuesday night, but generally speaking.

the groutch

seamus wrote: »

Look, the days of the private motorist in the city centre are coming to an end and people need to accept that. If you want to cross the city, use an orbital route rather than driving through the centre. The impact of bus stops on the quays will be somewhat moot when one side of the quays eventually becomes closed to private traffic anyway.

Part of the benefit of this activity is making it more difficult for private vehicles. They have no place in a city centre.

tbh, I wish they'd just go and ban all private vehicles from the city, rather than this piecemeal approach.

LXFlyer

seamus wrote: »

The impact of bus stops on the quays will be somewhat moot when one side of the quays eventually becomes closed to private traffic anyway.

I actually missed this comment - I'd suggest that you have a look at Aston Quay. There are already bus stops from O'Connell Bridge all the way up to beyond the Ha'penny Bridge.


That doesn't leave any room for bus stops for routes diverted away from College Green and Dame Street. It's going to be quite a walk to the next stop.

thomasj

Dublin bus have commented on the matter

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/DublinBus-Mobile/News/?depth=1&srcid=5376

LXFlyer

This is a better link for desktop users:
http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/News-Centre/General-News/College-Green-Bus-Corridor-of-Strategic-Importance-to-Dublin-Bus-customers/

LeinsterDub

lxflyer wrote: »

This is a better link for desktop users:
http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/News-Centre/General-News/College-Green-Bus-Corridor-of-Strategic-Importance-to-Dublin-Bus-customers/

Heaven forbid if Dublin bus weren't able to run nearly via O O'Connell St/College Green .

LXFlyer

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Heaven forbid if Dublin bus weren't able to run nearly via O O'Connell St/College Green .

This may not affect you, but for those of us that do require to use the bus across the city centre this proposal may have a negative impact on journey times, reliability and the number of vehicles required.


Bear in mind that the plan is for general traffic to be re-routed from the city centre area - that doesn't leave much options open for re-routing buses elsewhere as those routes are going to be clogged up.

LeinsterDub

lxflyer wrote: »

This may not affect you, but for those of us that do require to use the bus across the city centre this proposal may have a negative impact on journey times, reliability and the number of vehicles required.

Buses can across the city with out going down o Connell Street. DB should of been proactive in running buses down these routes. Yes it will be a pain for those who use these routes but you're also lucky that the cross city route you use happens to suit you. For a lot others it requires a change on service

LXFlyer

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Buses can across the city with out going down o Connell Street. DB should of been proactive in running buses down these routes. Yes it will be a pain for those who use these routes but you're also lucky that the cross city route you use happens to suit you. For a lot others it requires a change on service

But the point is that where most people want to go!

And most people can transfer easily between routes around O'Connell Bridge. That won't be so easy after this change.

And again I'm going to make the point that any of these supposed alternative routes are all likely to be completely clogged up with traffic going forward.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

Bear in mind that the plan is for general traffic to be re-routed from the city centre area - that doesn't leave much options open for re-routing buses elsewhere as those routes are going to be clogged up.

That's why Dublin Bus are right looking to make sure there's priority, but it's not clear all the other routes will be clogged up. Nearly all of the detours are within the area which will see drop in traffic or major traffic restrictions under the city centre traffic plan.

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

That's why Dublin Bus are right looking to make sure there's priority, but it's not clear all the other routes will be clogged up. Nearly all of the detours are within the area which will see drop in traffic or major traffic restrictions under the city centre traffic plan.

I was referring to the potential alternative routes to O'Connell Street - namely Gardiner Street or Jervis St/Capel St which is what that poster was inferring - if general traffic isn't allowed onto Burgh Quay/Bachelor's Walk it's going to have to go somewhere else and those streets are (I imagine) likely to be the main detours for general traffic.

As to the detour routes for buses from College Green, for any bus going down Georges Street it will involve 2 extra sets of lights than currently in either direction, and interacting with existing routes on the Quays. That doesn't bode well.

Based on twenty five years experience commuting on buses right across this city, and observing local authority pathetic efforts at putting in effective bus priority measures, I remain convinced that this will result in longer journey times.

LeinsterDub

lxflyer wrote: »

But the point is that where most people want to go!

Just wondering, but do we actually know this? Have DB/any one done surveys to prove this? I often get the bus to o Connell Street but it isn't my final destination.

For example I know no one who works in and around the o Connell Street but if they are going across city DB will force them to o Connell Street in most cases.

LXFlyer

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Just wondering, but do we actually know this? Have DB/any one done surveys to prove this? I often get the bus to o Connell Street but it isn't my final destination.

For example I know no one who works in and around the o Connell Street but if they are going across city DB will force them to o Connell Street in most cases.

They do passenger counts and surveys and that was what drove the redesign of the network under Network Direct.

The numbers getting on and off buses in that general area would tend to support that.

What alternative routes are you expecting the buses to take instead of the OCS or College Green areas to cross the city centre?

LeinsterDub

lxflyer wrote: »

The numbers getting on and off buses in that general area would tend to support that.

What alternative routes are you expecting the buses to take instead of the OCS or College Green areas to cross the city centre?

So no they haven't they guessed.

Constitution hill and East wall are both under used. They could both by pass o Connell Street.

BoatMad

be nice to have noisy buses banned from those streets, horrible things

markpb

lxflyer wrote:

The numbers getting on and off buses in that general area would tend to support that.

I've gotten in and off countless buses on O'Connell St over the years but very rarely actually went to O'Connell St. Other than Savoy, Henry St or Busaras, the only reason for my being there is because buses were there.

LXFlyer

LeinsterDub wrote: »

No they haven't they guessed.

Constitution hill and East wall are both under used. They could both by pass o Connell Street.

Yes they did do considerable passenger surveys and consultations. Don't diminish your argument by suggesting otherwise.


The problem with your suggestion is that most people using the bus are going to somewhere in the city centre, rather than out that far. Frankly looking at the loadings on a 9 compared with an 83 (which uses Constitution Hill) tends to back that up. Also, neither of those routes has significant bus priority measures, which O'Connell Street and College Green does, through restricted car access.


Constitution Hill has the 83, and East Wall has the 151, along with a variety of peak services through the Port Tunnel. I'm not really sure what else you expect to go to East Wall?

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

I've gotten in and off countless buses on O'Connell St over the years but very rarely actually went to O'Connell St. Other than Savoy, Henry St or Busaras, the only reason for my being there is because buses were there.

I said that general area, I didn't specifically say O'Connell Street itself.

Other people are using it to switch between buses - that's important itself.

But there are the 14, 15, 15a, 15b, 25, 25a, 25b, 26, 37, 39, 39a, 56a, 66, 66a, 66b, 67, 70, 77a, 83/a, and 151 which are all cross-city (north/south or east/west) and do not use O'Connell Street at all.

Jamie2k9

Plans look fantastic but I would be nice to see a Green space or just something so it won't just be a big space full of concrete.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

I was referring to the potential alternative routes to O'Connell Street - namely Gardiner Street or Jervis St/Capel St which is what that poster was inferring - if general traffic isn't allowed onto Burgh Quay/Bachelor's Walk it's going to have to go somewhere else and those streets are (I imagine) likely to be the main detours for general traffic.

As to the detour routes for buses from College Green, for any bus going down Georges Street it will involve 2 extra sets of lights than currently in either direction, and interacting with existing routes on the Quays. That doesn't bode well.

Based on twenty five years experience commuting on buses right across this city, and observing local authority pathetic efforts at putting in effective bus priority measures, I remain convinced that this will result in longer journey times.

Sorry, did not pick up on that -- I would not be in favour of diversions from O'Connell St without very strong reasoning and even then not likely advisable given all other changes coming.

You're right to remain unconvinced. I hope you're wrong, with the support for my hope based on the everything or at least most things fitting together this time.

LeinsterDub

lxflyer wrote: »

Yes they did do considerable passenger surveys and consultations. Don't diminish your argument by suggesting otherwise.

Sorry must of took you up wrong. I thought you suggested DB knew how many got on and off in the city centre area but didn't survey passangers if it was part of an on going journey

Carawaystick

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Plans look fantastic but I would be nice to see a Green space or just something so it won't just be a big space full of concrete.

Ah Here, there's loads of greens in Dublin, there is no need to feic up public transport to have another one.

dazberry

While I like the idea of it, and am a fan of pedestrianisation in general, not at the expense of public transport. I'm mainly on the 123 at present and by far the busiest stop is college green, not Lord Edward St or O'Connell St, that is where the majority of people need to go. Getting out the crayons and trying to route things around parliament St is not the answer.

Ironically this may have worked a bit better prior to n/w direct and cross city, and for all its flaws its now being cut off at the knees.

And having spent many a morning stuck on parliament St on the old 51 or 68, I'm in dread having to deal with it again - even in the opposite direction...

D.

Devilman40k

lxflyer wrote: »

As to the detour routes for buses from College Green, for any bus going down Georges Street it will involve 2 extra sets of lights than currently in either direction, and interacting with existing routes on the Quays. That doesn't bode well.

On 1 route in particular that will cause havoc as it will have to cross the Liffey twice in both directions (unless there is a significant redesign of the route)

Since Network Direct Westmoreland Street/D'Olier Street has become a key point for changeover. Will this mean another network redesign if reliability cannot be maintained?

LXFlyer

Devilman40k wrote: »

On 1 route in particular that will cause havoc as it will have to cross the Liffey twice in both directions (unless there is a significant redesign of the route)

Since Network Direct Westmoreland Street/D'Olier Street has become a key point for changeover. Will this mean another network redesign if reliability cannot be maintained?

What route are you thinking of?


You're absolutely right about the Westmoreland Street/D'Olier Street area being the key interchange point - that's going to be more difficult as stops would become more spread out over a wider area.

Devilman40k

lxflyer wrote: »

What route are you thinking of?

83/A. Northbound Coming off Georges Street turns onto College Green and continues on to Essex Quay. College Green and Westmoreland St are always busy for this route

Southbound - along Quays to O'Connell Bridge and then on to Georges Street. Bachelors Walk, D'Olier Street and College Green always heavy in this direction

Having this route follow the proposed route from Georges Street onto Bachelors Walk and back down to Essex Quay will only cause confusion

It will actually be 3 crossing northbound (Grattan Bridge, O'Connell Bridge/Rose Hackett, and then again at Ushers Quay) and only 1 southbound

LXFlyer

Devilman40k wrote: »

83/A. Northbound Coming off Georges Street turns onto College Green and continues on to Essex Quay. College Green and Westmoreland St are always busy for this route

Southbound - along Quays to O'Connell Bridge and then on to Georges Street. Bachelors Walk, D'Olier Street and College Green always heavy in this direction

Having this route follow the proposed route from Georges Street onto Bachelors Walk and back down to Essex Quay will only cause confusion

I wouldn't see that route doing a loop like that - it would be too long and circuitous. That's a non-runner.

The options (as I see it are either):
1) Ormond Quay - Grattan Bridge - Parliament Street - Dame Street - Georges' St (bypassing the immediate city centre area completely); or

2) From Rathmines, via Hatch Street, St Stephen's Green, Dawson Street, Westland Row, Pearse Street and Tara Street to Burgh Quay and onwards along the South Quays

Regardless of this plaza proposal, there was always going to be some network redesign through the city centre.

But this proposal for College Green is (in my view) just pushing things too far. The potential negative impact on the bus service is just far too great.

bk

Interesting quote from the DCC presentation:

Proposed to initially allow Taxis operate along with Buses and Trams.

Bolded by me.

The key word here is "initially", I'm sure they plan on also banning Taxi's but feel it might cause too much opposition. I'd guess the plan is to allow Taxi's initially, show that it doesn't work with Taxi's and then have public support for banning Taxi's too. Clever plan.

Mr.Frame

bk wrote: »

Interesting quote from the DCC presentation:




Bolded by me.

The key word here is "initially", I'm sure they plan on also banning Taxi's but feel it might cause too much opposition. I'd guess the plan is to allow Taxi's initially, show that it doesn't work with Taxi's and then have public support for banning Taxi's too. Clever plan.

But why the need to ban taxis ? Taxis are part of the National Transportation Authority. If taxis are banned it will be bad for businesses, hotels and bars ect
It will lead to taxis taking longer to get to a destination, leading to increased fare for passengers.

cgcsb

Mr.Frame wrote: »

But why the need to ban taxis ? Taxis are part of the National Transportation Authority. If taxis are banned it will be bad for businesses, hotels and bars ect
It will lead to taxis taking longer to get to a destination, leading to increased fare for passengers.

taxis clog up college green as is, imagine them when they slam on their brakes onfront of the luas to pick up a fare.

I would argue in favour of allowing taxis between 00:30 and 5:30 because we have no night bus service.