DCC's plans for College Green

Carawaystick

hmmm wrote: »

What's the proposed alternative route for traffic heading to & from the IFSC/docks?

From/to where?

Dyr

I only use the bus and I find the idea of pushing buses luas and bikes throgh college green madness, that area is already chocked up with buses to such a degree that you can forget about it as a plaza with volume of them Cut down the trees and your view will be of double deckers

trellheim

I have no objection to the majority of private traffic being removed BUT the rare time people may need to bring cars in ( I mean say once a week / once a fortnight NOT daily commuters. An outright ban is madness. You must also have vehicles HGV and otherwise dropping goods off and picking up from these city centre places. Suggesting otherwise is ridiculous and doesn't really contribute to a proper debate.

And , as I said, this is a sham argument anyway as it doesn't even begin to come close to addressing the actual problem of too many PSVs through chokepoints ( and then stupidly building a tram line through one of the biggest said chokepoints , and worse, giving it priority )

LXFlyer

hmmm wrote: »

What's the proposed alternative route for traffic heading to & from the IFSC/docks?

We are still waiting on suggested revised traffic routes - the City Centre traffic plan did not suggest what these would be.

monument

hmmm wrote: »

What's the proposed alternative route for traffic heading to & from the IFSC/docks?

Carawaystick wrote: »

From/to where?

@ hmmm -- as Carawaystick asks, to/from where?

Bambi wrote: »

I only use the bus and I find the idea of pushing buses luas and bikes throgh college green madness, that area is already chocked up with buses to such a degree that you can forget about it as a plaza with volume of them Cut down the trees and your view will be of double deckers

The plaza will mean that many buses will be diverted and no motorised traffic going between Dame Street and College Green as the plaza will take in that section of street.

trellheim wrote: »

I have no objection to the majority of private traffic being removed BUT the rare time people may need to bring cars in ( I mean say once a week / once a fortnight NOT daily commuters. An outright ban is madness.

Again: Exactly what trips (please state the a-b) are you talking about?

There's little or no car parking on the quays in question and access to the main car parks and residential car parks is to be maintained.

trellheim wrote: »

You must also have vehicles HGV and otherwise dropping goods off and picking up from these city centre places. Suggesting otherwise is ridiculous and doesn't really contribute to a proper debate.

Goods access is to be accommodated.

trellheim wrote: »

And , as I said, this is a sham argument anyway as it doesn't even begin to come close to addressing the actual problem of too many PSVs through chokepoints

On the central sections of the quays, the plan does address the problems as private car traffic is currently taking up a very high percentage of space while only carrying a small percentage of the people.

It's simple: Take car traffic out and you're left with a less congested route for buses.

It's not just theory: it's worked around the world and worked on the College Green bus gate.

trellheim wrote: »

and then stupidly building a tram line through one of the biggest said chokepoints , and worse, giving it priority )

The tram line is going in so there's not much that can be done about that now.

trellheim

the plan does address the problems as private car traffic is currently taking up a very high percentage of space while only carrying a small percentage of the people.

Not as much as people think, in the inner core. D'Olier and Westmoreland Sts, Dame St, Nassau St are almost wall-to-wall buses , slightly less taxicabs , then local deliveries and service, and far less private cars - in my view.

It is risible and fixing the wrong problem to do this, in this way; private cars are a red herring

Deedsie

I watched the commemoration today from College Green. It was easy to see the potential for how wonderful an addition this civic space could be to the city and country. And the streets were so silent without cars. It was such a lovely experience walking through the city today.

mvt

I thought the same about Dublin city yesterday morning & afternoon- was a real nice feeling having no cars around.

Back to reality by evening though

Deedsie

Deedsie wrote: »

I watched the commemoration today from College Green. It was easy to see the potential for how wonderful an addition this civic space could be to the city and country. And the streets were so silent without cars. It was such a lovely experience walking through the city today.

Heh, the tricolour there, just like 100 years ago. :pac:

bk

I was blown away by how good Dublin City and in particular O'Connell St was yesterday.

O'Connell St was simply amazing with it closed off and fully pedestrianised. It was brilliant to buy food from the stalls there and to sit their eating in the middle of the street!

It showed what incredible potential O'Connell Street would have as a shopping street if it was permanently pedestrianised. Dublin Bus didn't seem to be really effected by it's closure. Gardiner Street seems to work well as an alternative for DB.

I believe a fully pedestrianised O'Connell St, with Gardiner Street as the new DB bus "depot" could truly transform O'Connell Street and also vastly improve Gardener Street and the streets between it and O'Connell Street.

My only compliant about the day, was how terrible the footpaths on O'Connell Bridge and Westmoreland Street. Massive amounts of people were walking between O'Connell Street and Gratfon Street/Stephens Green and it showed just how inadequate these streets are for pedestrians. These footpaths were literally shoulder to shoulder with people not able to walk faster then baby steps. Tens of thousands of people were spilling onto the road beside the footpath! It showed to me how badly the footpaths on O'Connell Bridge and Westmoreland Street need to at least be doubled in width, along with the pedestrianisation of College Green.

Sunday and Monday were outstanding events and RTE, DCC, DB, Gardai, etc. did an outstanding job. Really I couldn't be more impressed and proud of the job they did. It also showed to me what a fantastic City Dublin actually is and how much potential it has to be a modern, attractive, European pedestrianised city if we develop and plan it properly.

Edit: BTW It also made it clear to me how badly the government needs to take over Bank of Ireland, College Green and to turn it into a museum/event center.

We have an incredible city, with incredible history and architecture. This past weekend showed me their is a massive thirst by the people of Ireland and visiting tourists to learn more about Ireland and Dublins fantastic history. We should be making far more of it.

Dyr

bk wrote: »

I was blown away by how good Dublin City and in particular O'Connell St was yesterday.

O'Connell St was simply amazing with it closed off and fully pedestrianised. It was brilliant to buy food from the stalls there and to sit their eating in the middle of the street!

It showed what incredible potential O'Connell Street would have as a shopping street if it was permanently pedestrianised. Dublin Bus didn't seem to be really effected by it's closure. Gardiner Street seems to work well as an alternative for DB.

I believe a fully pedestrianised O'Connell St, with Gardiner Street as the new DB bus "depot" could truly transform O'Connell Street and also vastly improve Gardener Street and the streets between it and O'Connell Street.

My only compliant about the day, was how terrible the footpaths on O'Connell Bridge and Westmoreland Street. Massive amounts of people were walking between O'Connell Street and Gratfon Street/Stephens Green and it showed just how inadequate these streets are for pedestrians. These footpaths were literally shoulder to shoulder with people not able to walk faster then baby steps. Tens of thousands of people were spilling onto the road beside the footpath! It showed to me how badly the footpaths on O'Connell Bridge and Westmoreland Street need to at least be doubled in width, along with the pedestrianisation of College Green.

I've always assumed there's some sort of reason why gardner street can't be used for buses in lieu of O'Connell Street, perhaps the road is'nt wide enough to allow that volume of buses to pull in without disprupting traffic flow?

Bear in mind what you say about westmoreland street and d'olier street is going to exacerbated if this plan pushes even more buses and bus stops down those roads

MJohnston

Bambi wrote: »

I've always assumed there's some sort of reason why gardner street can't be used for buses in lieu of O'Connell Street, perhaps the road is'nt wide enough to allow that volume of buses to pull in without disprupting traffic flow?

Bear in mind what you say about westmoreland street and d'olier street is going to exacerbated if this plan pushes even more buses and bus stops down those roads

Can't say for sure, but Gardener Street seems like a fairly key route for traffic heading from most of the Northside to anywhere in the Docklands, or in the Ballsbridge direction (via Talbot Bridge). It's already badly congested with two lanes of traffic, can't imagine giving some of that over to buses will do anything but exacerbate a problem. NCR -> Beckett Bridge is an alternative, but it's a horrible mess with traffic already too.

Dyr

MJohnston wrote: »

Can't say for sure, but Gardener Street seems like a fairly key route for traffic heading from most of the Northside to anywhere in the Docklands, or in the Ballsbridge direction (via Talbot Bridge). It's already badly congested with two lanes of traffic, can't imagine giving some of that over to buses will do anything but exacerbate a problem. NCR -> Beckett Bridge is an alternative, but it's a horrible mess with traffic already too.

Is there on street parking on gardner street? Blowing that away would free up some real estate

MJohnston

Bambi wrote: »

Is there on street parking on gardner street? Blowing that away would free up some real estate

Only between Talbot St and Cathal Brugha St on the northbound side, so you wouldn't get much space back.

Any reason why Marlborough Street couldn't become the new bus location for southbound buses? Even reclaiming half of OCS could be really nice.

Dardania

MJohnston wrote: »

Only between Talbot St and Cathal Brugha St on the northbound side, so you wouldn't get much space back.

Any reason why Marlborough Street couldn't become the new bus location for southbound buses? Even reclaiming half of OCS could be really nice.

Could be a nice interchange for south-bound commuters for the luas - might suit better as a northside bus location?

Dyr

How would pedestrianizing OCS work with a luas line running down it?

MJohnston

Bambi wrote: »

How would pedestrianizing OCS work with a luas line running down it?

Same way as College Green is intended to work!

bk

Bambi wrote: »

I've always assumed there's some sort of reason why gardner street can't be used for buses in lieu of O'Connell Street, perhaps the road is'nt wide enough to allow that volume of buses to pull in without disprupting traffic flow?

MJohnston wrote: »

Can't say for sure, but Gardener Street seems like a fairly key route for traffic heading from most of the Northside to anywhere in the Docklands, or in the Ballsbridge direction (via Talbot Bridge). It's already badly congested with two lanes of traffic, can't imagine giving some of that over to buses will do anything but exacerbate a problem. NCR -> Beckett Bridge is an alternative, but it's a horrible mess with traffic already too.

Weird, any time I've been on or passed Gardener Street I've always noticed how quiet it is! It always seems pretty uncongested for a city street. There certainly was no issues for Dublin Bus over Paddy and Easter weekend. They simply boomed up the street!

The issue I do see there is that the footpath is pretty narrow and can't really handle the Dublin Bus load of passengers.

At the moment the street is basically a four lane street with one lane in either direction and on-street parking.

Get rid of the onstreet parking, widen the footpath on one side, dedicated bus stops and you still have one lane in both directions. Basically, looking south to north.

<Double width footpath> <Bus stops> <car/bus lane northbound> <car lane south bound> <existing footpath>

Then use Marlborough Street for the south bound buses.

All seems very doable to me. I think we need to move away from the idea that everything needs to be funnelled down O'Connell Street.

O'Connell Street becomes a premier shopping street and tourist destination. The area between O'Connell Street and Connolly Station gets revitalised due to all the foot traffic.

I think this is exactly the way we need to start thinking in order to expand and grow Dublin city with it's growing population.

Spanish Eyes

bk wrote: »

Weird, any time I've been on or passed Gardener Street I've always noticed how quiet it is! It always seems pretty uncongested for a city street. There certainly was no issues for Dublin Bus over Paddy and Easter weekend. They simply boomed up the street!

The issue I do see there is that the footpath is pretty narrow and can't really handle the Dublin Bus load of passengers.

At the moment the street is basically a four lane street with one lane in either direction and on-street parking.

Get rid of the onstreet parking, widen the footpath on one side, dedicated bus stops and you still have one lane in both directions. Basically, looking south to north.

<Double width footpath> <Bus stops> <car/bus lane northbound> <car lane south bound> <existing footpath>

Then use Marlborough Street for the south bound buses.

All seems very doable to me. I think we need to move away from the idea that everything needs to be funnelled down O'Connell Street.

O'Connell Street becomes a premier shopping street and tourist destination. The area between O'Connell Street and Connolly Station gets revitalised due to all the foot traffic.

I think this is exactly the way we need to start thinking in order to expand and grow Dublin city with it's growing population.

Was just looking at google maps of Gardiner Street, and you're right, for a city centre thoroughfare it looks quiet alright.

Anyway, great post, and you should fire it off to Ciaran Cuffe at DCC, he's head of the transport committee that is looking after all these changes. I think he would be impressed at your thinking outside the box on this one.

O'Connell Street would be great if only the LUAS was allowed and the rest was given over to pedestrians, street cafes and the like. Transformed in fact!

MJohnston

bk wrote: »

Weird, any time I've been on or passed Gardener Street I've always noticed how quiet it is! It always seems pretty uncongested for a city street. There certainly was no issues for Dublin Bus over Paddy and Easter weekend. They simply boomed up the street!

Well on the holidays it'd be empty no doubt, as there's barely anyone commuting. But I cycle there most days and it's not that it's heavily used, it's just that the lights along that street (especially at the Luas track) really hinder quick flow of traffic. So at peak morning rush hour, it's really busy, but clears up very quickly after that. Evening rush hour, I think it's much less popular a route, because there are more northbound options available than southbound ones for northsiders.

trellheim

Marlborough St will be tight with the LUAS running down it , to be a bus street as well, in addition you'll still need private access for bits and bobs.

College Green is going to be a nightmare for public transport.

pclive

When Bachelors Walk is closed to all through traffic Gardiner St is going to get a whole lot busier

bk

I passed Gardener Street at 6:40pm yesterday and I took this picture



I admit it was after rush hour, but it shows just how quiet this street normally is. Really in my experienced one of the quietest and most underutilised streets in the city.

trellheim

Where is all the other bits that have to come into play.

I checked DCCs transport SPC and its very light on detail on the plans for this although it did mention 7,700 public responses were received. What's the statutory position does anyone know ?

SantryRed

I like the idea bk, but Gardiner Street is a nightmare for traffic in the morning time going southbound. I think the main reason it's never bad in the evening going northbound is due to Pearse Street clogging up all the traffic first.

MJohnston

bk wrote: »

I passed Gardener Street at 6:40pm yesterday and I took this picture

I admit it was after rush hour, but it shows just how quiet this street normally is. Really in my experienced one of the quietest and most underutilised streets in the city.

I'll try and remember to grab a photo for you around 9am tomorrow

Dyr

SantryRed wrote: »

I like the idea bk, but Gardiner Street is a nightmare for traffic in the morning time going southbound. I think the main reason it's never bad in the evening going northbound is due to Pearse Street clogging up all the traffic first.

In fairness the guards really do need to park their private cars right outside work

bk

SantryRed wrote: »

I like the idea bk, but Gardiner Street is a nightmare for traffic in the morning time going southbound. I think the main reason it's never bad in the evening going northbound is due to Pearse Street clogging up all the traffic first.

Though I'm suggesting buses would go North on this street and south on Marlborough Street, so that would be a less of an issue.

Of course if they were actually to do this, then it would require work on widening footpaths, bus priority and work on the streets leading to and from it. I'm not suggesting simply dumping buses there. It certainly all seems doable to me.

Dyr

Factor in the traders and landlords on O'Connell Street not wanting those buses rerouted either...

bk

Bambi wrote: »

Factor in the traders and landlords on O'Connell Street not wanting those buses rerouted either...

I think the complete opposite is true.

O'Connell Street trading isn't doing well at all. Look at Clearys closing and in a recent article I read, seemingly night time footfall has decreased significantly and the fast food restaurants are suffering as the night time trade moves south of the river.

I'm suggesting turning O'Connell Street into a premier shopping street and tourist destination. What landlords would not want that?!!

What you are suggesting is like saying the landlords of Grafton street would like to see buses routed down Grafton Street again!! No of course not, as has been proven over and over again in cities throughout Europe, pedestrianisation draws people in, increase footfall and thus trade.

Who might object are the landlords of Grafton street as a revitalised O'Connell Street might draw people away from Grafton street and it might lose it's place as the premier shopping street.

trellheim

what kind of like the Unter den Linden ?

bk

And here is the proof of my point above:

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/retail-and-services/life-after-clerys-how-will-dublin-s-premier-street-survive-its-closure-1.2254607

Nora Lin, from the Green Island shop next door, sells meat and fish and general groceries aimed at the Asian community and has a three-year lease. Using a member of staff to translate for her, she says business is “okay, not that good” and that although there are lots of people passing on the streets outside, “they are mostly there for the buses, not for the shopping”.

And that is the problem with the street at the moment. People don't like being on the street as it is basically a bus terminus. Big dangerous, noisy, dirty buses don't make for a pleasant place to casually shop and eat. I know this to be true, as I'm one of these people. I frequently get the bus from O'Connell Street, but I never actually shop or eat at any of the shops there. It just isn't a pleasant place to be.

An O'Connell Street without traffic (just a silent Luas) would be a far more attractive place for people to spend time, eat and shop.

bk

trellheim wrote: »

what kind of like the Unter den Linden ?

Yes, or like La Ramblas in Barcelona and plenty of other examples around European cities.

trellheim

I take your point - but we haven't seen that much of it on Abbey street even though buses have been abolished around arnotts

MJohnston

OCS is absolutely grim right now, to the extent that I don't think there are that many retailers left on the street who would actually have the leverage to object to it's pedestrianization. There's tonnes that could be done to improve the street without banning all traffic though, and I think it's just clear at this point that the authorities don't have the intelligence or drive to make it happen. What they have let happen is the influx of a series of dismal and awful takeaways and 'shops'. I see so many tourists step off buses and wandering into one of the terrible eateries on the street and I scream internally. Horrible.

BoatMad

MJohnston wrote: »

OCS is absolutely grim right now, to the extent that I don't think there are that many retailers left on the street who would actually have the leverage to object to it's pedestrianization. There's tonnes that could be done to improve the street without banning all traffic though, and I think it's just clear at this point that the authorities don't have the intelligence or drive to make it happen. What they have let happen is the influx of a series of dismal and awful takeaways and 'shops'. I see so many tourists step off buses and wandering into one of the terrible eateries on the street and I scream internally. Horrible.

A direct function of muddled planning and quite frankly a " rural mindset " applied to a capital cities main thoroughfare . Even as dublin corpo cut down all the trees in the last " development" it was promising " cafes" in the street meridian , yeah , how'd that work out

when planners allow Ann Summers shops on the main street , what else do you expect

Alan_P

BoatMad wrote: »

when planners allow Ann Summers shops on the main street , what else do you expect

In fairness, that wasn't planners, that was legislators. Dublin Corporation went to court to stop Ann Summers, but the planning legislation simply didn't contain anything that would allow them to do so.

Spanish Eyes

As bk says, O'Connell Street has so much potential. It is so wide it could become a great place instead of a series of bus stops all along the street.

I really second Gardiner Street as an alternative route for buses going North. Has to be a better choice than OCS.

I just sent off an email to Ciaran Cuffe. I know it's the weekend, but let's see if he responds in any positive way anytime soon.

But as we know it takes years to change anything in this city. So hold on to her hats!!

http://www.dublincity.ie/councillor-ciaran-cuffe

Spanish Eyes

Deedsie wrote: »

Ciarán Cuffe is usually good to get back to people. I emailed him before about adding Dublin bikes to the leap card and he got back to me pretty quick.

In the long term semi-pedestrianising OCS sounds like a great idea but for now I'd happily settle for a pedestrianised civic space at college green by 2020. As you said, progressive change can be extremely slow in Dublin.

Now I was never really a Greenie, but TBH if they do anything to help make Dublin a better place I will be positive about them.

The could capitalise (geddit) on the Dublin thing and that would be good.

Good to hear Ciaran Cuffe is good about responding, thanks.

Ste.phen

BoatMad wrote: »

A direct function of muddled planning and quite frankly a " rural mindset " applied to a capital cities main thoroughfare . Even as dublin corpo cut down all the trees in the last " development" it was promising " cafes" in the street meridian , yeah , how'd that work out

when planners allow Ann Summers shops on the main street , what else do you expect

Conversely, I feel that Ann Summers is among the better maintained and classier shopfronts on the street, the entire Northern end is a wasteland, for example

prinzeugen

bk wrote: »

I think the complete opposite is true.

O'Connell Street trading isn't doing well at all. Look at Clearys closing and in a recent article I read, seemingly night time footfall has decreased significantly and the fast food restaurants are suffering as the night time trade moves south of the river.

I'm suggesting turning O'Connell Street into a premier shopping street and tourist destination. What landlords would not want that?!!

What you are suggesting is like saying the landlords of Grafton street would like to see buses routed down Grafton Street again!! No of course not, as has been proven over and over again in cities throughout Europe, pedestrianisation draws people in, increase footfall and thus trade.

Who might object are the landlords of Grafton street as a revitalised O'Connell Street might draw people away from Grafton street and it might lose it's place as the premier shopping street.

Who is going to occupy these shops? Most big names are located on Henry St or Grafton Street (or both) so its pointless for them to open another shop.

Everyone is on about moving busses away from the city centre but seen to forget that not everyone is able bodied.

Sure screw them, as long as hipsters get outdoor cafés, markets etc.

That will never happen though. You would want your head looked at if you would sit outdoors in OCS or College Green on anything other than a calm, sunny day.

I can't see what the problem is with keeping things the way they are. Sure shut College Green for events when needed. But use the cash to sort the derelict buildings out.

It would make the city centre better than any plaza would.

bk

prinzeugen wrote: »

Who is going to occupy these shops? Most big names are located on Henry St or Grafton Street (or both) so its pointless for them to open another shop.

What are you talking about, retailers are crying out for more big box retail locations in the city center!!!!

Look at Abercrombie & Fitch and H&M opening up massive stores on College Green. Look at all the new big box retail stores on Stephens Green. Non of which are on Henry Street or Grafton Street as you state.

Look at the way we have no Apple Stores in Dublin. Look at the way Samsung squeezed their store into Clerys when it was open.

It is also very noticeable that there is no House of Fraser, John Lewis, Hollister, etc. in Dublin city center. All stores you would normally expect to see in a big city and all of which were previously connected with moving into the Arnotts and Dr Quirkeys redevelopments on O'Connell Street.

prinzeugen wrote: »

Everyone is on about moving busses away from the city centre but seen to forget that not everyone is able bodied.

Moving buses 100 meters from O'Connell St to Gardiner Street is now moving them out of the city center :rolleyes:

City centers around the Europe have no buses on their central shopping streets and yet somehow less able bodied people still manage to cope.

prinzeugen wrote: »

Sure screw them, as long as hipsters get outdoor cafés, markets etc.

That is actually quiet offensive to disabled people you know! Disabled people can be "hipsters" too and I know for a fact many disabled people quiet enjoy cafes, markets, etc.

Don't you think that the pedestrianisation of College Green and O'Connell Street along with significantly widening the very inadequate footpaths on O'Connell Bridge and Westmoreland Street would in fact significantly improve the ease of use of the city center for elderly and disabled people?!

prinzeugen wrote: »

That will never happen though. You would want your head looked at if you would sit outdoors in OCS or College Green on anything other than a calm, sunny day.

Ah there we go, the other great excuse for doing nothing in Ireland, the weather!!

Actually first half of Easter Monday was actually a very cloudy, cold and blustery day! Yet tens of thousands of people thronged O'Connell Street and still happily sat out doors eating.

In winter you can half German style Christmas markets. Look at how incredibly successful the Christmas Market at Stephens Green was two years ago, with tens of thousands of people attending every night despite the crappy Irish weather.

prinzeugen wrote: »

I can't see what the problem is with keeping things the way they are. Sure shut College Green for events when needed. But use the cash to sort the derelict buildings out.

It would make the city centre better than any plaza would.

The city council have already chucked massive amounts of money at O'Connell Street, widening footpaths, rebuilding footpaths, the spire, etc.

And yet it hasn't helped the street, in fact it has gotten worse!

But that is because they didn't tackle the root cause of the problems on the street. The large number of big, noisy, dirty busses that make it feel like an unattractive place to spend any time on, the death for any retail.

LXFlyer

With respect bk you have got to recognise that the buses are the mainstay of public transport in this city. Whether you view them as noisy dirty etc is your prerogative, but the bottom line is that they are the backbone of our public transport system, whether you like it or not. As such they need to go where people want to go to, which is includes the heart of the city centre.

Most of those European cities that you refer to will all have extensive tram and metro networks, and buses are secondary to them.

Shifting the bus network away from adjacent to one of the main retail centres is not a viable option.

We also have to be realistic here. Under the initial DCC plan (leaving aside their later ideas for College Green), all private cars will be removed from both Burgh Quay and Bachelor's Walk. That means that Capel Street, Jervis Street and Gardiner Street will become the main diversionary routes for the traffic that currently uses those streets and they will be significantly more congested than at present. Suggesting moving the bus network into that congestion is fantasy frankly.

I applaud your utopian vision, but it's not based in reality. All these wonderful ideas will not improve the flow of buses through the city centre, and people who are espousing them need to have a reality check here. The buses are as I said the backbone of our public transport network, and until that changes they need to serve the centre of the city, not the periphery.

The bus network is critical to keeping Dublin moving, and frankly your comments about them being "big noisy and dirty" are not justifications for moving them out of the city centre. Maybe in some fantasy utopian land perhaps, but not in reality. It's laughable.

Dyr

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect bk you have got to recognise that the buses are the mainstay of public transport in this city. Whether you view them as noisy dirty etc is your prerogative, but the bottom line is that they are the backbone of our public transport system, whether you like it or not. As such they need to go where people want to go to, which is includes the heart of the city centre.

Most of those European cities that you refer to will all have extensive tram and metro networks, and buses are secondary to them.

And therein lies our problem, the madness of having dublin bus providing most of our public transport

LXFlyer

Bambi wrote: »

And therein lies our problem, the madness of having dublin bus providing most of our public transport

Well it is the reality and some people need to start recognising that.

Until that changes and we have Metro North and DART Underground, coming up with these utopian ideas about shoving the buses away from the core of the city centre is just pie in the sky, and frankly nonsense.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect bk you have got to recognise that the buses are the mainstay of public transport in this city. Whether you view them as noisy dirty etc is your prerogative, but the bottom line is that they are the backbone of our public transport system, whether you like it or not. As such they need to go where people want to go to, which is includes the heart of the city centre.

I readily admit that buses are vital from of public transport to our city. But you and others also need to wake up to the fact that there are also a terrible scourge on our city and they are the main reason why people see Dublin City center as a dirty, noisy and possibly dangerous place.

And as such I think we should be doing everything possible to reduce their impact on our city while still doing everything we can to keep them running and accessible as possible.

Running so many buses down what should be the main shopping street is simply insane and we all have to be honest about it that it is the reason why O'Connell Street is in such terrible shape.

We should be trying to reduce their impact on our city with lots more trams and Metros, making buses unnecessary, like in other European cities.

BTW many of these cities have just two our three Metro/Tram lines which feed into bus stations outside the city center. People take the tram/Metro to these bus stations and then transfer onto a local bus there. See Prague as an example.

Between DART, two Luas lines and a Metro in the future, we really shouldn't be far off from doing the same.

We should be doing more park and rides at train and tram stations outside the city to get more people onto trains and out of buses. See the GDA report that recommends this.

We should also be asking why Dublin Bus continues to use dirty Diesel buses when London Bus is quickly moving to cleaner and quieter hybrid models and in the long term we should be aiming for fully clean and quiet full EV models.

And yes I will also say that we should be moving them from the very core heart of our city center to just a short distance away.

Dyr

lxflyer wrote: »

Well it is the reality and some people need to start recognising that.

Until that changes and we have Metro North and DART Underground, coming up with these utopian ideas about shoving the buses away from the core of the city centre is just pie in the sky, and frankly nonsense.

Not really, the network dey-wrecked nonsense created a main artery right through dublin for buses but it was an artery that is regularly closed, always causing disruption to the entire network. Theres a need to shift buses off OCS and there's no reason they can't be shifted now with the rosie hackett bridge in operation

LXFlyer

Oh come on - buses contributing to the city being dangerous? This is just getting more ludicrous by the minute. At least try to come up with plausible arguments.

As for being "dirty", all of the buses that DB purchase meet and actually exceed current EU environmental emissions standards.

The decision not to purchase hybrids is down to cost - they're just too expensive. The money isn't there right now. Sure if we were awash with cash we could, but as a nation we aren't.

If there was a viable alternative to the bus network in the form of Metro North and DART Underground I'd say there could be some merit in looking at the idea. But there isn't, and on current form there is unlikely to be for many many years to come.

Coming up dreamy utopian ideas like this just simply isn't going to work practically while there aren't viable alternatives.

You just simply cannot remove the main form of public transport from the city centre on a whim because you don't like buses. It's nuts.

MJohnston

bk wrote: »

BTW many of these cities have just two our three Metro/Tram lines which feed into bus stations outside the city center. People take the tram/Metro to these bus stations and then transfer onto a local bus there. See Prague as an example.

Between DART, two Luas lines and a Metro in the future, we really shouldn't be far off from doing the same.

Broadstone, Conyngham Road/Heuston, Busarus...is there a south side depot near the Green Line? I'm wondering why we can't move in this direction already.

LXFlyer

Bambi wrote: »

Not really, the network dey-wrecked nonsense created a main artery right through dublin for buses but it was an artery that is regularly closed, always causing disruption to the entire network. Theres a need to shift buses off OCS and there's no reason they can't be shifted now with the rosie hackett bridge in operation

Well you have your own view on Network Direct, which may or may not be valid in your area.

But the fact that passenger numbers started rising again after they implemented the changes (while the country was still in recession) would tend to suggest that most users don't agree with that view.

The only time that buses tend to be disrupted on OCS is (generally) when protest marches take place on Saturday afternoons.

Rosie Hackett bridge & Marlborough St is only usable in one direction - do you seriously think Gardiner St is a viable option northbound?