DCC's plans for College Green

MJohnston

lxflyer wrote: »

Oh come on - buses contributing to the city being dangerous? This is just getting more ludicrous by the minute. At least try to come up with plausible arguments.

You've obviously never cycled through Dublin.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

Broadstone, Conyngham Road/Heuston, Busarus...is there a south side depot near the Green Line? I'm wondering why we can't move in this direction already.

Trams are already full reaching the outskirts of the city centre.

Do you seriously think they could cope with the numbers of people coming into Dublin on the buses? They couldn't - it's not possible or viable.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

You've obviously never cycled through Dublin.

How many accidents have there been involving buses and cyclists in the city centre?

It's a fairly major slur on driving standards of the various bus companies I would suggest too.

Dyr

lxflyer wrote: »

Oh come on - buses contributing to the city being dangerous? This is just getting more ludicrous by the minute. At least try to come up with plausible arguments.

As for being "dirty", all of the buses that DB purchase meet and actually exceed current EU environmental emissions standards.

The decision not to purchase hybrids is down to cost - they're just too expensive. The money isn't there right now. Sure if we were awash with cash we could, but as a nation we aren't.

If there was a viable alternative to the bus network in the form of Metro North and DART Underground I'd say there could be some merit in looking at the idea. But there isn't, and on current form there is unlikely to be for many many years to come.

Coming up dreamy utopian ideas like this just simply isn't going to work practically while there aren't viable alternatives.

You just simply cannot remove the main form of public transport from the city centre on a whim because you don't like buses. It's nuts.

The last time I checked parnell street, marlborough street, jervis street and abbey street were all in the city centre.

MJohnston

lxflyer wrote: »

Trams are already full reaching the outskirts of the city centre.

Do you seriously think they could cope with the numbers of people coming into Dublin on the buses? They couldn't - it's not possible or viable.

It's certainly possible, and certainly viable, just not with the current Luas network and tram sizes. Saying it's not possible is just overly defensive.

MJohnston

lxflyer wrote: »

How many accidents have there been involving buses and cyclists in the city centre?

It's a fairly major slur on driving standards of the various bus companies I would suggest too.

Why do there have to be accidents for it to be dangerous? You're overreacting.

LXFlyer

Bambi wrote: »

The last time I checked parnell street, marlborough street, jervis street and abbey street were all in the city centre.

Ok - but you're ignoring the DCC plan to divert all private cars/vans away from the Quays - those streets will become clogged up with that traffic.

Sending the buses into that traffic is not going to work.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

It's certainly possible, and certainly viable, just not with the current Luas network and tram sizes. Saying it's not possible is just overly defensive.

MJohnston wrote: »

Why do there have to be accidents for it to be dangerous? You're overreacting.

Well frankly I am dealing with the practical reality that we have.

Without a massive investment in infrastructure, including DART Underground and Metro North the notion that everyone travelling on a bus can switch to LUAS is not with practical or viable. What about the large numbers of cross-city passengers as well? LUAS couldn't remotely cope with it.

Nor is removing the bus network from O'Connell Street to Gardiner Street realistic considering the DCC plans for the Quays.

I don't see that investment in infrastructure happening any time soon - do you?

Bk is talking about making these changes now without that investment. I'm just pointing out without that massive investment it just simply is not realistic.

I'm sorry if that comes across as "defensive" in your view, but someone needed to explain the reality that the bus network is vital to the city and coming up with ideas that would slow it down and make it less attractive without providing the other options I mentioned above is just crazy.

It really frustrates me as an advocate for public transport when people come up with these ideas, however well intentioned, that just view buses as something that can be shoved out of sight, while not recognising (in the absence of investing massively in rail infrastructure) their vital nature and the fact that the city just could not cope without them.

Two thirds of the people travelling into Dublin city centre on public transport use Dublin Bus - people have to start recognising the strategic importance of that.

MJohnston

lxflyer wrote: »

Bk is talking about making these changes now without that investment. I'm just pointing out without that massive investment it just simply is not realistic.

I don't follow - perhaps you two have some long, internet-ly history that gives you extra insight, but nothing bk has posted here leads me to believe that they wouldn't expect this to work without investment.

MJohnston

And yes, let's get this out of the way - Dublin city is extremely reliant upon buses right now, and for the foreseeable. So how can we change that?

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

I don't follow - perhaps you two have some long, internet-ly history that gives you extra insight, but nothing bk has posted here leads me to believe that they wouldn't expect this to work without investment.

His entire posts in this thread about removing buses from OCS made no mention of the need for Metro North/DART Underground beforehand.

Nor do they recognise the large number of cars/vans that are going to be diverted away from the Quays onto Gardiner St, Capel St, Jervis St and Parnell St.

I'm basing my comments on what I'm reading here.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

And yes, let's get this out of the way - Dublin city is extremely reliant upon buses right now, and for the foreseeable. So how can we change that?

Building Metro North, DART Underground?

Having (like other posters here) watched plan after plan for these schemes be "approved" and then shelved over the years, you'll forgive my scepticism about them happening any time soon.

Dyr

MJohnston wrote: »

I don't follow - perhaps you two have some long, internet-ly history that gives you extra insight, but nothing bk has posted here leads me to believe that they wouldn't expect this to work without investment.

It's like anything if you reduce capacity by closing off OCS then you have to increase capacity elsewhere or reduce volume (i.e. cars). Both are doable

MJohnston

lxflyer wrote: »

Nor do they recognise the large number of cars/vans that are going to be diverted away from the Quays onto Gardiner St, Capel St, Jervis St and Parnell St.

But the banning of private traffic from the quays isn't happening in isolation - part of why its planned is because of the introduction of the Luas cross city line, which will make those areas a no-go for most private traffic anyway, and will markedly increase the connectivity of the Luas network for North side workers (it's a shame, to be honest, that they aren't re-purposing some of that awful industrial estate at Broombridge for a Park and Ride car park for the North Green Line). Are there any official projections for how this new line will impact on city centre private traffic volumes?

Nor does it seem to me that it's simply intended to re-arrange traffic flows, I would expect that it'll discourage usage of private vehicles, and increase Public Transport usage. So, you might end up with more people on buses, that are able to progress more quickly because there are fewer cars on those routes. Look at Capel Street for example, private traffic there might actually decrease because of a Quays ban, because it'll remove a large amount of people turning left (as they'd have nowhere to go after turning left really).

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

But the banning of private traffic from the quays isn't happening in isolation - part of why its planned is because of the introduction of the Luas cross city line, which will make those areas a no-go for most private traffic anyway, and will markedly increase the connectivity of the Luas network for North side workers (it's a shame, to be honest, that they aren't re-purposing some of that awful industrial estate at Broombridge for a Park and Ride car park for the North Green Line). Are there any official projections for how this new line will impact on city centre private traffic volumes?

Nor does it seem to me that it's simply intended to re-arrange traffic flows, I would expect that it'll discourage usage of private vehicles, and increase Public Transport usage. So, you might end up with more people on buses, that are able to progress more quickly because there are fewer cars on those routes. Look at Capel Street for example, private traffic there might actually decrease because of a Quays ban, because it'll remove a large amount of people turning left (as they'd have nowhere to go after turning left really).

You're kind of missing my point.

As a result of those changes OCS will be virtually car free in either direction.

All private traffic will have to use alternative routes.

Do you think it makes sense to re-route buses from a clear OCS to the likes of Gardiner St where inevitably there is going to be a significant increase in traffic?

MJohnston

lxflyer wrote: »

You're kind of missing my point.

As a result of those changes OCS will be virtually car free in either direction.

All private traffic will have to use alternative routes.

Do you think it makes sense to re-route buses from a clear OCS to the likes of Gardiner St where inevitably there is going to be a significant increase in traffic?

OCS is already virtually car free in the south direction, and pretty much the same in the north direction (I cycle this way every day at rush hour), especially with the current closure of Parnell Street which has ruled this out for most cars already.

I don't think it makes sense to re-route buses purely for the sake of re-routing buses, however, in conjunction with the idea of revitalizing OCS from it's dismal condition, and providing a nice pedestrianised civic space on the north side of the city centre, it makes sense to me.

Imo you don't need to use Gardiner Street anyway, adopt Marlborough Street as a public transport corridor for southbound buses. I don't even think OCS needs to be fully closed off - you could retain a single northbound bus lane for passage only - no taxis, no bus stops, etc.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

OCS is already virtually car free in the south direction, and pretty much the same in the north direction (I cycle this way every day at rush hour), especially with the current closure of Parnell Street which has ruled this out for most cars already.

I don't think it makes sense to re-route buses purely for the sake of re-routing buses, however, in conjunction with the idea of revitalizing OCS from it's dismal condition, and providing a nice pedestrianised civic space on the north side of the city centre, it makes sense to me.

Imo you don't need to use Gardiner Street anyway, adopt Marlborough Street as a public transport corridor for southbound buses. I don't even think OCS needs to be fully closed off - you could retain a single northbound bus lane for passage only - no taxis, no bus stops, etc.

bk was suggesting using Gardiner Street northbound - hence my comment that it is going to be clogged up with traffic. It's also moving the service away from one of the main retail areas unnecessarily.

Also I don't think removing all of the bus stops on OCS is particularly conducive towards making public transport attractive? That would mean a gap in stops from either Pearse St or Westmoreland St to Parnell Square - that's way too long.

A bus service has to be convenient to use - creating a gap that long isn't doing that I'm afraid.

Carawaystick

MJohnston wrote: »

Imo you don't need to use Gardiner Street anyway, adopt Marlborough Street as a public transport corridor for southbound buses. I don't even think OCS needs to be fully closed off - you could retain a single northbound bus lane for passage only - no taxis, no bus stops, etc.

Henry St is the busiest shopping street in the city. People upthread say getting rid of busses will make O'Connell St full of shops. And here you propose not serving O'Connell st to get shoppers into or out of the shopping area?:eek:

MJohnston

Carawaystick wrote: »

Henry St is the busiest shopping street in the city. People upthread say getting rid of busses will make O'Connell St full of shops. And here you propose not serving O'Connell st to get shoppers into or out of the shopping area?:eek:

Do I really? Grafton Street is somehow an extremely popular shopping destination despite the nearest bus connections being Dawson Street or Dame Street. OCS and Henry Street could easily be just as popular if bus connections were available in Parnell Square, Westmoreland Street, and Marlborough Street (as they already are) which are about the same distance as the Grafton St connections. Not to mention that Henry Street is well served by the Red Line, and will soon be well served by the Green Line too.

I don't think that's too long a gap tbh.

Dyr

lxflyer wrote: »

bk was suggesting using Gardiner Street northbound - hence my comment that it is going to be clogged up with traffic. It's also moving the service away from one of the main retail areas unnecessarily.

Also I don't think removing all of the bus stops on OCS is particularly conducive towards making public transport attractive? That would mean a gap in stops from either Pearse St or Westmoreland St to Parnell Square - that's way too long.

A bus service has to be convenient to use - creating a gap that long isn't doing that I'm afraid.

The 4 doesn't stop from pearse street to the very end of OCS, anyway are you the chap who always complains there's too many stops?

There'd be plenty of stops between Pearse street and Parnell Square, they just wouldnt be on OCS

BoatMad

lxflyer wrote: »

Oh come on - buses contributing to the city being dangerous? This is just getting more ludicrous by the minute. At least try to come up with plausible arguments.

As for being "dirty", all of the buses that DB purchase meet and actually exceed current EU environmental emissions standards.

The decision not to purchase hybrids is down to cost - they're just too expensive. The money isn't there right now. Sure if we were awash with cash we could, but as a nation we aren't.

If there was a viable alternative to the bus network in the form of Metro North and DART Underground I'd say there could be some merit in looking at the idea. But there isn't, and on current form there is unlikely to be for many many years to come.

Coming up dreamy utopian ideas like this just simply isn't going to work practically while there aren't viable alternatives.

You just simply cannot remove the main form of public transport from the city centre on a whim because you don't like buses. It's nuts.

if you have been to Nice in france, you will se that they have the same trams as ourselves . and its quite a limited network, like DUBlin. They also manage to keep buses outs of the main pedestrianised areas, including where the tram runs.


There is no requirement to allow Buses access the area question

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

How many accidents have there been involving buses and cyclists in the city centre?

It's a fairly major slur on driving standards of the various bus companies I would suggest too.

It's really not a slur on driving standards -- it's standard in places like The Netherlands and Denmark to keep cycling and buses apart by means of segregated cycle paths etc.

LXFlyer

Bambi wrote: »

The 4 doesn't stop from pearse street to the very end of OCS, anyway are you the chap who always complains there's too many stops?

There'd be plenty of stops between Pearse street and Parnell Square, they just wouldnt be on OCS

I have never suggested that there are too many stops. That would be other posters. So please don't tar me with that brush!

What I've consistently suggested doing an audit of stops in terms of safety, design and as part of that perhaps merging stops in limited circumstances where bus stops are for example less than 100m apart (such as Upper Rathmines Rd.).

As for the 4 well under the plan suggested above you'd have a gap from Pearse St to Parnell Square West - do you think that's something that's going to make the bus more appealing?

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

It's really not a slur on driving standards -- it's standard in places like The Netherlands and Denmark to keep cycling and buses apart by means of segregated cycle paths etc.

Fair enough - it just came across that way.

I just think people need to reflect on the importance of the bus service to the city given the lack of viable alternatives.

I'm all for improving areas, but people need to be realistic and diverting the main public transport providers away from the city centre really isn't the solution without those alternative schemes being in place.

MJohnston

lxflyer wrote: »

Fair enough - it just came across that way.

I just think people need to reflect on the importance of the bus service to the city given the lack of viable alternatives.

I'm all for improving areas, but people need to be realistic and diverting the main public transport providers away from the city centre really isn't the solution without those alternative schemes being in place.

What alternative schemes are you referring to, out of curiosity?

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

What alternative schemes are you referring to, out of curiosity?

I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat myself here?

Metro North and DART Underground at a minimum.

BoatMad

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat myself here?

Metro North and DART Underground at a minimum.

if they were there , there would still be dissenters on here , arguing

MJohnston

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat myself here?

Metro North and DART Underground at a minimum.

Essentially then, given how unlikely either of those projects are likely to come to fruition in the next couple of decades, you're ruling out any changes to city centre PT arrangements for the foreseeable? You don't think there can be any adjustments made aside from those two big projects, to improve OCS?

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

Essentially then, given how unlikely either of those projects are likely to come to fruition in the next couple of decades, you're ruling out any changes to city centre PT arrangements for the foreseeable? You don't think there can be any adjustments made aside from those two big projects, to improve OCS?

I am being quite specific here.

My personal view that I've repeated ad nauseum today is that the proposal outlined above by bk which is removing the bus service from O'Connell Street, is not an option.

The strategic importance of the bus service is just too great and whatever about the aesthetic appeal, it has to serve the core of the city centre.

You can't simply remove it to other streets that will be far more congested than they are now if the DCC proposal for the Quays happens.

The bus service carries 2/3 of the public transport passengers into the city centre. Treating it as something that should be hived off to other streets (such as Gardiner Street) that are further away from one of the main retail areas is (in my view something) that is insane.

There needs to be a recognition that in the absence of rail based alternatives that the bus service is critical and needs all the priority that it can get.

In terms of PT improvements, I think that the DCC/NTA plan (prior to the recent DCC suggestion on College Green) was pretty good - creating a public transport gate at College Green and removing cars from the Quays and O'Connell bridge area. It would improve the flow of PT significantly.

But I'll repeat, I do not think that removing buses from OCS is realistic - they are essential to the lifeblood of the city, they need to serve the retail areas such as Henry St, and under the DCC plan OCS will effectively be a bus lane in either direction which should mean improved flows through the city centre.

Dyr

On the bus home...stuck on Westmoreland Street for 10 minutes because it's so flooded with buses that the drivers have to play bus Tetris to get in at their stop. As we cross O'Connell bridge I look over at the Rosie Hackett bridge...a single car passing it..,hmmmm

Core area be damned, you don't need every route trundling up OCS. Marlborough st, Jervis Street, Parnell St all give easy access to the area

LXFlyer

Bambi wrote: »

On the bus home...stuck on Westmoreland Street for 10 minutes because it's so flooded with buses that the drivers have to play bus Tetris to get in at their stop. As we cross O'Connell bridge I look over at the Rosie Hackett bridge...a single car passing it..,hmmmm

Core area be damned, you don't need every route trundling up OCS. Marlborough st, Jervis Street, Parnell St all give easy access to the area

Well under the DCC/NTA plan the Lucan Road buses will be re-routed via Burgh Quay as the lefthand turn off Westmoreland St will be removed - that'll provide an extra stop and more space on Westmoreland St.

Providing a second city centre bus station and thereby removing on-street loading for Intercity coach services - that clears up congestion where Aircoach load their Cork service on Westmoreland St.

The Rosie Hackett bridge is southbound only and that isn't going to change - I'm not sure how that's relevant to your northbound journey.

At the risk of repeating myself again, some of the streets you list (Jervis St, Parnell St) are all going to have to cope with significant extra general traffic if the DCC/NTA plan is implemented. Sending bus routes into that isn't the best idea in the world I would suggest.

trellheim

I get a strong feeling that DCC have their plan but are going to just put it out there as a fait accompli.

We do not do this well. Look at St. Stephens Green ; for all intents and purposes one side is more or less unused ,the north is mayhem, the east side is busy as anything, and the south side has almost no public transport on it

MJohnston

Bambi wrote: »

On the bus home...stuck on Westmoreland Street for 10 minutes because it's so flooded with buses that the drivers have to play bus Tetris to get in at their stop. As we cross O'Connell bridge I look over at the Rosie Hackett bridge...a single car passing it..,hmmmm

Core area be damned, you don't need every route trundling up OCS. Marlborough st, Jervis Street, Parnell St all give easy access to the area

I think there was some incident or event today because the traffic i was cycling through was much much heavier than usual. Lots of tour buses and coaches clogging up 1.5 lanes too. So irritating.

pclive

MJohnston wrote: »

I think there was some incident or event today because the traffic i was cycling through was much much heavier than usual. Lots of tour buses and coaches clogging up 1.5 lanes too. So irritating.

O'Connell Bridge North bound is down from 4 lanes to 2 due to LUAS works

MJohnston

pclive wrote: »

O'Connell Bridge North bound is down from 4 lanes to 2 due to LUAS works

Yeah, I noticed that, I don't know if that was the only reason though - traffic heading west from the Beckett Bridge on the quays was absolutely mad, which is really rare (at least, *after* the Bridge it's rare), and then when I got to O'Connell Bridge (coming along from Burgh Quay), it was the usual situation where like 99% of cars were heading further west along the quays, and only 1 or 2 were turning onto O'Connell Bridge.

But then, knowing Dublin, it was probably some domino effect from the bridge closure itself.

cgcsb

I don't see why it has to be either/or. OCS, Gardiner, Marlborough, Jervis and Capel st are all available, why not use all of them for bus routes? Is there any reason why nearly every route in the city needs to go through the one bottleneck?

Carawaystick

MJohnston wrote: »

Do I really?

Yes, you clearly wrote no bus stops on O'Connell Street, in post 219.

MJohnston wrote: »

Grafton Street is somehow an extremely popular shopping destination despite the nearest bus connections being Dawson Street or Dame Street.

Before the tram works, Grafton street had bus stops serving it on Suffolk street and on Grafton street.

MJohnston wrote: »

OCS and Henry Street could easily be just as popular if bus connections were available in Parnell Square, Westmoreland Street, and Marlborough Street (as they already are) which are about the same distance as the Grafton St connections.

Google maps says its 650 m from Henry st to Westmoreland street on foot, and Dawson st is only about 150m from Grafton street.

MJohnston wrote: »

Not to mention that Henry Street is well served by the Red Line, and will soon be well served by the Green Line too.

I don't think that's too long a gap tbh.

Having two tram lines isn't a replacement for all the destinations disimproved by removing the busses.

MJohnston

Carawaystick wrote: »

Before the tram works, Grafton street had bus stops serving it on Suffolk street and on Grafton street.

Where were the bus stops on Grafton St? Suffolk Street isn't coming back as a bus depot, thankfully.

Google maps says its 650 m from Henry st to Westmoreland street on foot, and Dawson st is only about 150m from Grafton street.

It's about 350m from Henry Street to Parnell Square (or 190m to the Ilac centre entrance, which is where quite a lot of people head to on Henry Street anyway). It's 450m between Henry St and Westmoreland St, but I mentioned WML St in connection with serving OCS itself, not necessarily Henry St. These aren't exactly vast distances we're talking here.

Having two tram lines isn't a replacement for all the destinations disimproved by removing the busses.

No, but they are relevant here because they reduce the walking distances between PT termini and the city centre streets we're talking about. There will be 2 Green Line stops on OCS, one on Westmoreland St, one close to Parnell Sq. Thus, questions about integrated ticketing aside, I don't see how you can say that connectivity to Henry St or OCS is going to be disimproved.

LXFlyer

The stops on Grafton St were southbound for certain routes.

I'd agree about Suffolk St - as long as there are bus stops towards the northern half Dawson St and then Westmoreland St, that should be sufficient.

The TfL Bus stop design manual quote 400m as the optimum maximum distance between stops, and stops should be closer in town/city centres and housing estates as required.

Creating a 650-800m gap flies in the face of that theory.

MJohnston

I'd imagine those Grafton St stops are gone for good too?

cgcsb

realistically there can't be bus stops on luas tracks, it just wouldn't work.

BoatMad

Where were the bus stops on Grafton St? Suffolk Street isn't coming back as a bus depot, thankfully.

thank god for that , Buses ruined that whole street , it was and is a nightmare of noise and diesel fumes

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

I'd imagine those Grafton St stops are gone for good too?

Absolutely - I wouldn't expect any stop along Grafton St, but there needs to be a review of southbound stops to regularise the spacing once the LUAS works are finished.

Having a bus stop on O'Connell Bridge for example is a nonsense. DCC moved it there to put the short cycle lane in on OCS between Abbey St and Eden Quay. It shows utter contempt for bus passengers, forcing them to wait on a windswept bridge.

MJohnston

cgcsb wrote: »

realistically there can't be bus stops on luas tracks, it just wouldn't work.

Yeah, I can see this becoming a problem on OCS actually, at the part where the Luas tracks are part of the street, rather than in the centre median.

As I mentioned before, buses (not usually DB, more usually the tour buses or other coach operators) are frequently blocking that regular lane, not fully or anything, there are just way too many of them trying to stop on that street, and so the buses have to angle into the stops (because of already stopped buses) rather than pulling up parallel. So, very often, you get a bus whose arse is jutting out into the second lane by a small amount, which is enough to stop other buses passing it, and probably enough to stop the Luas passing too.

Dyr

MJohnston wrote: »

Yeah, I can see this becoming a problem on OCS actually, at the part where the Luas tracks are part of the street, rather than in the centre median.

As I mentioned before, buses (not usually DB, more usually the tour buses or other coach operators) are frequently blocking that regular lane, not fully or anything, there are just way too many of them trying to stop on that street, and so the buses have to angle into the stops (because of already stopped buses) rather than pulling up parallel. So, very often, you get a bus whose arse is jutting out into the second lane by a small amount, which is enough to stop other buses passing it, and probably enough to stop the Luas passing too.

You've hit on another problem on oconnell street, tour buses using thesouthbound bus lane as a parking space. Another reason to clear them off altogether

MJohnston

Bambi wrote: »

You've hit on another problem on oconnell street, tour buses using thesouthbound bus lane as a parking space. Another reason to clear them off altogether

I think I'd ban everything but DB from OCS right now, personally. The coaches and tour buses are a menace, and taxis are, well...you know, taxis.

Dyr

MJohnston wrote: »

I think I'd ban everything but DB from OCS right now, personally. The coaches and tour buses are a menace, and taxis are, well...you know, taxis.

Just take that the extra step and you have a plan

monument

New thread split off given the public consultation is open

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057584134#