Employer Asking For Sick Note

mattaiuseire · 09-02-2016 12:43pm #1

My partner pulled a sicky for Monday (yesterday) and told her employer she went to the doctors (she didn't).
Her employer phoned her and checked she was okay and offered to put her down as a holiday to cover Monday, she agreed and said she was feeling better and would return Tuesday (today).
When arrived at work today her employer sent her home until Thursday (due to the reasons she gave for her absence) and said they would use her annual leave to cover.
However they have asked for a sick note.

As far as I know, legally my partner isn't required to provide a sick note as she will have a total of 3 days off sick which is being covered by annual leave anyway, plus you can self certify for I think 7 days?

If the employer was to, worst case scenario, fire my partner, where would this stand legally, taking into account her sick days are being covered by annual leave, plus they aren't required to have a sick note provided?

Faith+1 · 09-02-2016 12:47pm

The 3 day rule is true in most cases but why did she say she was going to the doctor in the first place? She really dug a hole for herself when she could of simply said she was under the weather and would return to work the next day. She could ask her employer not to be paid for the time off but this could look suspicious when all they require is a sick note.

screamer · 09-02-2016 12:47pm

She needs to check her contract if it's there that they need a sick note for any absence then she needs to provide one even if only out one day. I know plenty of employers who require a note for even a single day of absence due to illness.

Annual leave cannot be used for sick leave that is illegal and they may insist she goes to the company doctor also to I be checked over to assess fitness to return to work.

It's either annual leave which is what they seem to be using so in this case they have no right to request a sick note. Or illness leave on which case they can request the note.

I can't imagine what your partner told them was wrong for them to ask her to stay off work for 3 additional days.

nkav86 · 09-02-2016 12:48pm

I'm not sure about the legal side of this situation but I'll give my opinion, hopefully it helps! The employer was doing her a favour by putting it down as AL so she wouldn't lose on wages, the fact that she's gonna be out for a few days on the trot now would require a sick note in my opinion, many jobs require them after a period of absence. I know it's 55e that a lot of us can't afford but it's a whole lot cheaper than the cost of losing the job, I would get the note, but if you need further opinion on the legal side maybe try citizens advice, I've found them really helpful

Toots · 09-02-2016 12:49pm

Most employers require a note for absences of 3 or more days. However, if he's putting her down as being on Annual Leave, I'd be saying they don't need a cert because it's not sick leave. They can't have it both ways. Sounds to me like they know your OH pulled a sickie and they're trying to catch her out.

JazzyJ · 09-02-2016 12:51pm

What does her contract say around sick leave?

(Certified) sick leave and holiday leave are not interchangeable, but she may not be entitled to pay for the sick leave days.

From: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/sick_leave.html

Sick leave and annual leave
If you are ill during your annual leave and have a medical certificate for the days you were ill, these sick days will not be counted as annual leave days. Instead, you can use these days as annual leave at a later date. An employer cannot require you to take annual leave for a certified period of illness.

Since 1 August 2015, you accumulate statutory annual leave entitlement during a period of certified sick leave. Employees on long-term sick leave can retain annual leave they could not take due to illness for up to 15 months after the end of the year in which it is accrued – see ‘Further information’ below.

esforum · 09-02-2016 12:53pm

If the company is paying her sick then they can ask for a cert, if they have it recorded as leave then its leave.

The issue here is refusing the cert will look a bit suss so even if you win the battle, you lose the war.

Personally I have never heard if anyone ringing in sick when on holiday to reclaim the days, Bit like being sick at the weekend in my opinion

Cork2015! · 09-02-2016 12:57pm

ring up doctors and ask for a sick note say she has a bug and cant get into doctors due to diarrhea.... if the employer notices the wrong date is on the cert just say she lost the first one and rang up for a second..... simples

mattaiuseire · 09-02-2016 1:01pm

She had a sore back because on Saturday some idiot junkie walked past her in town and knocked her to the ground, probably didn't realise what he had done.

So although she could have gone in work Monday she was a little sore but well enough to work. She knows she's dug a hole for herself by saying she went to the doctors.

The employer have been urging her to stay off work for another couple of days even though she's been saying she's well enough, they have refused to allow her to work. But they must be medical professionals if they think another 2 days is enough?

Kristopherus · 09-02-2016 1:06pm

Cork2015! wrote: »

ring up doctors and ask for a sick note say she has a bug and cant get into doctors due to diarrhea.... if the employer notices the wrong date is on the cert just say she lost the first one and rang up for a second..... simples

Welcome to Boards!!!!! If you continue giving that kind of non-sensical advice you wont last long.

OP, most employers require a sick cert for a Monday absence in addition to the 3-day rule.

Cork2015! · 09-02-2016 1:12pm

Kristopherus wrote: »

Welcome to Boards!!!!! If you continue giving that kind of non-sensical advice you wont last long.

OP, most employers require a sick cert for a Monday absence in addition to the 3-day rule.

Eh no need to be so rude.... I literally was in this situation last week which is why I offered the advice.....

mattaiuseire · 09-02-2016 1:13pm

Kristopherus wrote: »

Welcome to Boards!!!!! If you continue giving that kind of non-sensical advice you wont last long.

OP, most employers require a sick cert for a Monday absence in addition to the 3-day rule.

Can you elaborate?
Do you think she is required to provide a sick note even though they have covered her day off with her annual leave, and then made sure she stays off for another couple of days even though she's ready to go back?

mattaiuseire · 09-02-2016 1:16pm

Cork2015! wrote: »

Eh no need to be so rude.... I literally was in this situation last week which is why I offered the advice.....

It's easy to go and get a sick note. Spending money we don't have when we don't need to however is the point - worst case scenario this is what we'll have to do, but I'm raising points that I'm looking for advice on.

Polo_Mint · 09-02-2016 1:27pm

She told her employers that she could not attend work due to back injury

She told her employers that she was at the doctors due to back injury

I guess her employers what proof that she did indeed go to the doctors.

This is an issue she caused herself and im sure her employer can use " Insurance on Premises " to request a Doctors cert

Polo_Mint · 09-02-2016 1:27pm

She told her employers that she could not attend work due to back injury

She told her employers that she was at the doctors due to back injury

I guess her employers what proof that she did indeed go to the doctors.

This is an issue she caused herself and im sure her employer can use " Insurance on Premises " to request a Doctors cert

Tiddlypeeps · 09-02-2016 1:32pm

mattaiuseire wrote: »

She had a sore back because on Saturday some idiot junkie walked past her in town and knocked her to the ground, probably didn't realise what he had done.

So although she could have gone in work Monday she was a little sore but well enough to work. She knows she's dug a hole for herself by saying she went to the doctors.

The employer have been urging her to stay off work for another couple of days even though she's been saying she's well enough, they have refused to allow her to work. But they must be medical professionals if they think another 2 days is enough?

They are probably just worried that if she comes back too soon it will hurt her back more and mean even more time off. Even if she doesn't do any heavy lifting even a desk job can be pretty hard on an injured back.

Or they could be cheekily taking advantage of the situation to try force her into using up annual leave at a time that suits them more. I think this is unlikely tho.

I think from a legal stand point she could probably fight the medical cert requirement, but since she claimed she went to the doctor in the first place the best course of action is probably just to get the doctors cert and be done with it. It doesn't matter if the cert wasn't created on Monday, she can always just say she didn't get a cert when she was in first because she didn't think she would need it and went back for it later (a fairly common situation). If she goes to the doctor and just states she was out with a sore back from x date to y date they will mostly likely give the sick cert. They don't put any other information on it, so the employers won't be able to tell from the cert that she didn't go to the doctor on Monday.

mattaiuseire · 09-02-2016 1:34pm

Polo_Mint wrote: »

She told her employers that she could not attend work due to back injury

She told her employers that she was at the doctors due to back injury

I guess her employers what proof that she did indeed go to the doctors.

This is an issue she caused herself and im sure her employer can use " Insurance on Premises " to request a Doctors cert

Her employer has forced her to take an extra 2 days off and used the time off as annual leave. I understand this is of her own making. I'm looking for answers in how this stands in law. As someone already said, surely they can't book her down as a holiday and ask for a sick note at the same time and have it both ways? Sure they can request a sick note, but so what, they can request all they want, she isn't obliged to give it is she?

_Brian · 09-02-2016 1:38pm

This seems familiar to something I've seen in the past.

Employee rings in to direct manager who offers to cover it as annual leave which in most cases is doing the employee a favour.
For whatever reason at work a senior manager or HR have gotten wind of what happened and is pressuring the direct manager to put things right.

The case I saw resulted in warnings for bothe the employee and direct manager for not following procedure and absence policy.

mattaiuseire · 09-02-2016 1:38pm

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

They are probably just worried that if she comes back too soon it will hurt her back more and mean even more time off. Even if she doesn't do any heavy lifting even a desk job can be pretty hard on an injured back.

Or they could be cheekily taking advantage of the situation to try force her into using up annual leave at a time that suits them more. I think this is unlikely tho.

I think from a legal stand point she could probably fight the medical cert requirement, but since she claimed she went to the doctor in the first place the best course of action is probably just to get the doctors cert and be done with it. It doesn't matter if the cert wasn't created on Monday, she can always just say she didn't get a cert when she was in first because she didn't think she would need it and went back for it later (a fairly common situation). If she goes to the doctor and just states she was out with a sore back from x date to y date they will mostly likely give the sick cert. They don't put any other information on it, so the employers won't be able to tell from the cert that she didn't go to the doctor on Monday.

That's what I'm thinking too.

I have a sneaky suspicion they are trying to make her use up her leave. At the beginning of each year they try to get everyone to sort out what holidays they want - as if it's possible for everybody to plan out a full year.
I've told her in the past they can't decide when she wants her holidays, if she books a shorter notice and it isn't available then so be it, but they are insistent on trying to get everyone to plan out their whole year at the drop of a hat.
Anyways, although I have a feeling this has something to do with it, still not sure why they would be looking for a medical cert!

Cork2015! · 09-02-2016 1:39pm

mattaiuseire wrote: »

Her employer has forced her to take an extra 2 days off and used the time off as annual leave. I understand this is of her own making. I'm looking for answers in how this stands in law. As someone already said, surely they can't book her down as a holiday and ask for a sick note at the same time and have it both ways? Sure they can request a sick note, but so what, they can request all they want, she isn't obliged to give it is she?

Does she have a contract? In my last job we needed a cert after 5 days but in my current job it is after 2 days so really does vary from company to company

mattaiuseire · 09-02-2016 1:44pm

_Brian wrote: »

This seems familiar to something I've seen in the past.

Employee rings in to direct manager who offers to cover it as annual leave which in most cases is doing the employee a favour.
For whatever reason at work a senior manager or HR have gotten wind of what happened and is pressuring the direct manager to put things right.

The case I saw resulted in warnings for bothe the employee and direct manager for not following procedure and absence policy.

Thanks for your response. Note that her employer isn't an office and there is no HR department as such, the place is run by 2 owners, 1 of them is only occasionally there, the other is there every day and would be the person who deals with HR. The third person is a supervisor who ensures the day to day running of staff shifts etc.

seamus · 09-02-2016 1:44pm

As it's a physical injury she's sustained they can request a certificate of fitness to ensure that she's able to return to work. She should clarify from her employer whether that's what they're looking for - she can say she's confused as to what they're looking for because the absence is being covered by annual leave.

She can explain to the doctor what happened and they can provide a cert along the lines of, "Following a back injury sustained on <date>, I can confirm that <patient> will be fit to resume work on <thursday>".

If there's a query around the dates, she can just say she went back and got a longer sick cert to cover the new absence.

_Brian · 09-02-2016 1:45pm

Cork2015! wrote: »

Does she have a contract? In my last job we needed a cert after 5 days but in my current job it is after 2 days so really does vary from company to company

Employers can ask for every day to be certified if they wish. Even in companies where 3 days is the norm, an individual employee can be asked to certify every absence if they have had issues with absence in the past.

Tiddlypeeps · 09-02-2016 1:45pm

mattaiuseire wrote: »

I've told her in the past they can't decide when she wants her holidays, if she books a shorter notice and it isn't available then so be it, but they are insistent on trying to get everyone to plan out their whole year at the drop of a hat.

Actually they can decide when an employee takes holidays. The legal requirement is that they give minimum 4 weeks holidays, it's their discretion on when they are taken, except for certain circumstances like not forcing the employer to take sick leave as annual leave.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/annual_leave_public_holidays.html

The Organisation of Working Time Act 1997 provides for a basic annual paid leave entitlement of 4 weeks, although an employee's contract could give greater rights.

It is for your employer to decide when annual leave may be taken, but this is subject to a number of conditions. Your employer must take into account your family responsibilities, opportunities for rest and recreation that are available to you and to consult with you (or your union) at least one month before the leave is to be taken. In addition, annual leave should be taken within the appropriate leave year or with your consent, within 6 months of the relevant leave year. Further holding over (also known as carrying-over) of annual leave at your wish is a matter for agreement between you and your employer.

It's a bit crap that they require people to know so far in advance when they want off but it is a legally acceptable thing to do.

groovyg · 09-02-2016 1:47pm

Am I reading this right when your partner rang in sick on the Monday the boss put this down as annual leave, then when she returned the next day she was sent home and they are now requesting a medical cert.
Is the leave for when she is off now going to be recorded as sick leave or annual leave?
Where I work if I'm out more than two days I have to get a cert.
The boss can't be recording it as annual leave if its sick leave.
You partner should go to the doctor and get cert from the first day she rang in sick. If she explains she was off on the Monday she thought she would be ok but got sent home then the doctor should be able to give her a cert from the first day she was off sick.

_Brian · 09-02-2016 1:49pm

mattaiuseire wrote: »

Thanks for your response. Note that her employer isn't an office and there is no HR department as such, the place is run by 2 owners, 1 of them is only occasionally there, the other is there every day and would be the person who deals with HR. The third person is a supervisor who ensures the day to day running of staff shifts etc.

Indeed, there may be a disagreement over How this was handled as essentially the company have broken employment law by asking her to take annual leave when actually sick.
And your partner is in the wrong because they lied about the absence in the first place.

Might be best to ring in and come clean about this as its not going to end well as certs cannot be gotten now.

mattaiuseire · 09-02-2016 1:58pm

groovyg wrote: »

Am I reading this right when your partner rang in sick on the Monday the boss put this down as annual leave, then when she returned the next day she was sent home and they are now requesting a medical cert.
Is the leave for when she is off now going to be recorded as sick leave or annual leave?
Where I work if I'm out more than two days I have to get a cert.
The boss can't be recording it as annual leave if its sick leave.
You partner should go to the doctor and get cert from the first day she rang in sick. If she explains she was off on the Monday she thought she would be ok but got sent home then the doctor should be able to give her a cert from the first day she was off sick.

Her first day off yesterday, was recorded as annual leave. When she returned today, they told her to return on Thursday and will record today and tomorrow also as annual leave, but have also requested a sick note!

Tiddlypeeps · 09-02-2016 2:00pm

groovyg wrote: »

The boss can't be recording it as annual leave if its sick leave.

They cannot require the employee take sick leave as annual leave, but they can offer it to the employee. For a lot of people this would be welcomed if the company in question does not pay for sick days.

JazzyJ · 09-02-2016 2:00pm

_Brian wrote: »

Indeed, there may be a disagreement over How this was handled as essentially the company have broken employment law by asking her to take annual leave when actually sick.
And your partner is in the wrong because they lied about the absence in the first place.

Might be best to ring in and come clean about this as its not going to end well as certs cannot be gotten now.

The haven't broken the law, as at this point in time the sick leave is not certified - see my link above. Once its certified they can't force her to take it as annual leave, but they may not have to pay her.

Again it all comes down to what is in her contract with regard to sick leave and certification and that information hasn't been given.

I can't see ringing in and coming clean going too well with the employers!

_Brian · 09-02-2016 2:10pm

JazzyJ wrote: »

The haven't broken the law, as at this point in time the sick leave is not certified - see my link above. Once its certified they can't force her to take it as annual leave, but they may not have to pay her.

Again it all comes down to what is in her contract with regard to sick leave and certification and that information hasn't been given.

I can't see ringing in and coming clean going too well with the employers!

They are under the impression that this person is genuinely injured and has visited a doctor based on the injury. They are also asking for a cert to cover this fictitious visit to the doctor. The employee is facing a problem now - the employer is now entitled to a medical cert. The cert cannot be presented as a doctor visit never happened. Knowing all this they are recording it as annual leave, they can't have both and be within the law.

I'd say they believe that a cert can be produced and so be able to cancel the annual leave and replace with certified absence.

When the employer realises a cert cannot be produced as a lie was told I'd expect disciplinary action to follow. Ringing in and not dragging out the whole process MAY help keep the employee from getting a written warning here.

JazzyJ · 09-02-2016 2:43pm

_Brian wrote: »

They are under the impression that this person is genuinely injured and has visited a doctor based on the injury. They are also asking for a cert to cover this fictitious visit to the doctor. The employee is facing a problem now - the employer is now entitled to a medical cert. The cert cannot be presented as a doctor visit never happened. Knowing all this they are recording it as annual leave, they can't have both and be within the law.

I'd say they believe that a cert can be produced and so be able to cancel the annual leave and replace with certified absence.

When the employer realises a cert cannot be produced as a lie was told I'd expect disciplinary action to follow. Ringing in and not dragging out the whole process MAY help keep the employee from getting a written warning here.

I agree with what you're saying with regard to the request for a cert and the employers treating the days as holidays.

However, the employer may not be entitled to a sick cert - as I've been repeatedly saying it depends on what the employees contract states. A visit to the doctor does not necessarily mean that a cert would be obtained.

It is also the employers that have deemed they are not fit for work for the following days, and not the (fictitious) doctor, so there wouldn't be a cert covering those days. I find that part a bit strange - can employers deem someone to be unfit for work medically?

It's a bit of a mess, but really we can't say more without knowing the employees contract around sick leave and certification.

Employer Asking For Sick Note

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