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Employer Asking For Sick Note

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    #62
    Neyite
    Administrators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,947 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Neyite


    mattaiuseire wrote: »
    No she hasn't spoken to anyone except me about it.

    How easy will it be now for her to visit the GP tomorrow and say hey I was off work on Monday because I had a little back ache, so I took painkillers and now I'm fine, but my boss wants a sick note to cover the day off ?

    Depends on the gp. I know mine would be happy to write one out in those circumstances.


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    #63
    mattaiuseire
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 295 ✭✭mattaiuseire


    But she was ready for work on the Tuesday and sent home for 2 days by her employer. Why 2 days, why not 3? Why not a week? They haven't based this on anything - therefore why would she need a sick note to cover days off sick that she was told to take by her employer?


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    #64
    Polo_Mint
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,504 ✭✭✭Polo_Mint


    mattaiuseire wrote: »
    But she was ready for work on the Tuesday and sent home for 2 days by her employer. Why 2 days, why not 3? Why not a week? They haven't based this on anything - therefore why would she need a sick note to cover days off sick that she was told to take by her employer?

    They want the sick note for Monday from the Doc.

    If the Doc says she is fit for Tuesday and Wednesday, Then her employer would do the following.

    1. Give her full pay for Tuesday and Wednesday with no Annual leave needed even if she was off.

    2. Give her Annual leave for the 2 days.

    Its all about the Monday in your employers eyes.


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    #65
    JIdontknow
    Registered Users Posts: 726 ✭✭✭JIdontknow


    mattaiuseire wrote: »
    But she was ready for work on the Tuesday and sent home for 2 days by her employer. Why 2 days, why not 3? Why not a week? They haven't based this on anything - therefore why would she need a sick note to cover days off sick that she was told to take by her employer?
    davo10 wrote: »
    In the case of back problems, particularly one which claimed to require a GP visit, the employer may be following industry guidelines for H&S reasons to prevent further injury and an accusation of negligence. She may be required to present a note verifying that she is fit to return to work.

    Id say the above, if down the line anything happens her back in work or there is a claim, they can say they advised 2 further days off as a precaution before returning to work. There backup will be we suggested this and the doctor gave a cert for these following two days off as a precaution. Look at it this way, if she hurts her back recently in work, the employer can say they done their best to avoid this situation, "as a precaution following her recent injury outside of work, we suggested two further days off and the doctor certified this..."

    Employer probably knows it's easier to get a doctor to extend a sick cert upon being told that the patients employer requests this as a precaution, rather than get one in the first place... Basically they called her bluff it seems.


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    #66
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,572 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    mattaiuseire wrote: »
    But she was ready for work on the Tuesday and sent home for 2 days by her employer. Why 2 days, why not 3? Why not a week? They haven't based this on anything - therefore why would she need a sick note to cover days off sick that she was told to take by her employer?

    In fairness she opened this can of worms with a lie so there is no sense crying injustice. She could try the GP for the cert but the chances of getting it are low enough

    failing that she's just going to have the be honest and take the repercussions, possible verbal or written warning. .


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    #67
    mattaiuseire
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 295 ✭✭mattaiuseire


    _Brian wrote: »
    In fairness she opened this can of worms with a lie so there is no sense crying injustice. She could try the GP for the cert but the chances of getting it are low enough

    failing that she's just going to have the be honest and take the repercussions, possible verbal or written warning. .

    She does have her own Doctor from the place she used to live, where her family still live, he's known her all her life and he'd be happy to write a sick note or two for her. But then she might be asked why she went to the other side of the country when she was supposed to be off work with a bad back.


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    #68
    cnoc
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭cnoc


    mattaiuseire wrote: »
    Ok update for you:

    Her boss just called her and said she can't have the Monday, Tues and Weds off as annual leave any more, she has to take the days as sick leave and has to provide a medical cert to cover the days.

    So now they have decided to make her stay off work for 2 days extra and she can't be paid for it because she has to take them as sick days.

    What's all that about??

    It's about your OH saying she visited the doctor....


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    #69
    JIdontknow
    Registered Users Posts: 726 ✭✭✭JIdontknow


    mattaiuseire wrote: »
    She does have her own Doctor from the place she used to live, where her family still live, he's known her all her life and he'd be happy to write a sick note or two for her. But then she might be asked why she went to the other side of the country when she was supposed to be off work with a bad back.

    I personally wouldn't do this... it will suggest she wasn't hurt/sick at all and was obviously visiting there the weekend and wanted an extra day there, hence calling in sick the night before and getting the cert on the Monday from the doctor there, personally I think that would cause her more hassle...

    Try a local doctor, have her explain to the doctor she tweaked her back Sunday and couldn't make work Monday so she took something for it and felt better but work requested she take two further days off as a precaution and require a cert for this... She could get him to check her back and certify her okay for work and mention the few days off on it, but again it is at the discretion of the doctor, a return to work letter might suffice in this situation to save face with her employers as technically they are then covered legally as she is certified as fit for work by the doctor...

    After that all she can do is hold her hand up, just ask them to take it from her yearly holiday allowance, and say it won't happen again and apologise for everything. Employer would respect this as it's not an easy thing for a person to do but would earn her some respect in light of all this.


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    #70
    granturismo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,919 ✭✭✭granturismo


    The company is making her take annual leave so she doesnt need to supply a sick cert.

    She could always say that she went to the GP on Monday but the GP wouldnt certify her as unfit for work. Attending a GP does not always result in a sick cert. She's entitled to take Monday as an uncertified sick day and attend a GP on that day - not having a sick cert is irrelevant, the employer should have accepted that Monday was an uncertified sick day.


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    #71
    Deise_vixen
    Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭Deise_vixen


    But they are not really calling her bluff as she never said that a doctor told her to take sick leave and she has never been certified.

    Although they might be trying to cover their own arses with regards to future back injury issues, what they are actually asking the employee to do is to go to a doctor and get a cert for two days when the employee is actually fit for work.

    They are deciding that the employee is not fit for work (a medical decision that they are not qualified to do) and are asking the employee to go to the doctor and to get the doctor to agree with them!! I would understand however if they were requesting that the employee get a cert from the doctor to certify that they were fit for work.

    So what I would do in the employees position is get to a doctor first thing tomorrow morning, explain to the doctor that they took Monday off as a precaution, rested, took appropriate OTC medication, turned up for work as usual and was turned away by their employer. I would then ask the doctor to examine them and certify that they were medically fit for work and I would head straight to work with that "fit for work" cert.

    This would mean no certs required for Monday/Tuesday (no medical need to take the days off) and no need to be absent on Wednesday as certified fit for work. Agree with employer to take Mon/Tues as annual leave and also agree to clarify what the policy is for future absences with regards to certification.

    Oh and no more chancing sickies!!!


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    #72
    JIdontknow
    Registered Users Posts: 726 ✭✭✭JIdontknow


    The above are fair points. Generally though if an employee says they were at the doctor and can't make work today, then that implies they have a cert, or can easily get one in lieu of the visit, otherwise why mention the doctor at all?

    I understand the points though regarding the two extra days off, knowing she was fit to work Tuesday, and all I can think of is that they are taking a precaution in case anything happens her back in work, they can say they took precautions etc. As I said a return to work letter might cover all this.


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    #73
    mattaiuseire
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 295 ✭✭mattaiuseire


    I think the way forward is, as mentioned above in your helpful posts, to go to the docs tomorrow and explain she took Monday off, rested and took OTC painkillers, then returned to work on Tues but was told to go home and what she wants is an examination and if doc thinks ok, a certificate confirming she is fit for work. Grab this and go straight up to work with it. If asked why didn't get sick notes, tell them didn't think it was necessary as only took 1 day off, plus the doctor said this "fit for work" certificate would be sufficient.

    Hows that guys?


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    #74
    Polo_Mint
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,504 ✭✭✭Polo_Mint


    granturismo wrote: »
    The company is making her take annual leave so she doesnt need to supply a sick cert.

    employer revoked the annual leave
    granturismo wrote: »
    She could always say that she went to the GP on Monday but the GP wouldnt certify her as unfit for work. Attending a GP does not always result in a sick cert. She's entitled to take Monday as an uncertified sick day and attend a GP on that day - not having a sick cert is irrelevant, the employer should have accepted that Monday was an uncertified sick day.

    The employer does not have to accept that Monday was an uncertified sick day.

    They can treat it as a unauthorized absence pending a doctors note


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    #75
    Polo_Mint
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,504 ✭✭✭Polo_Mint


    mattaiuseire wrote: »
    I think the way forward is, as mentioned above in your helpful posts, to go to the docs tomorrow and explain she took Monday off, rested and took OTC painkillers, then returned to work on Tues but was told to go home and what she wants is an examination and if doc thinks ok, a certificate confirming she is fit for work. Grab this and go straight up to work with it. If asked why didn't get sick notes, tell them didn't think it was necessary as only took 1 day off, plus the doctor said this "fit for work" certificate would be sufficient.

    Hows that guys?

    Tell her to go to the doctor tomorrow, see what they say and take it from there.

    Lying to cover up a lie will be caught out.

    If they have any reason not to believe her then the trust is gone with her employer


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    #76
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,192 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    Hey op,
    For what it's worth I was in your situation once. I took a couple of days off and was asked to produce a sick note.
    Now I wanted a few days off for my own reasons so I gave the generic excuse "am sick/should be ok in a few days" - I wasn't even looking to get paid for the days off. Just wanted them off.

    So my manager keeps asking for a sick note. Maybe he knew I wasnt genuinely sick and wanted to prove it? maybe it was company policy? maybe he asumed I was going to want to get paid for the days? who knows. He kept asking. So I just fobbed him off.

    He would ask do you have it? I would reply with I forgot it sorry.
    He would ask again, I would say jaysus I am such an idiot I forgot it again.
    On the third time asking? I searched up and down the house over the weekend to find it and I couldn't. Don't know what I did with it :confused:


    ... he stopped asking. Don't know if it's of any help. But just thought I would throw it out there.


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    #77
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    mattaiuseire wrote: »
    I think the way forward is, as mentioned above in your helpful posts, to go to the docs tomorrow and explain she took Monday off, rested and took OTC painkillers, then returned to work on Tues but was told to go home and what she wants is an examination and if doc thinks ok, a certificate confirming she is fit for work. Grab this and go straight up to work with it. If asked why didn't get sick notes, tell them didn't think it was necessary as only took 1 day off, plus the doctor said this "fit for work" certificate would be sufficient.

    Hows that guys?

    I don't think you are grasping the situation. What you think is sufficient and what the Doc thinks is sufficient really isn't sufficient if the employer requests certification from the GP relating to the visit your wife is supposed to have made. You need to understand that it would be both normal and expected that if an employee was ill enough to need to see a GP, they would get a cert for that absence from the GP. And if asked, would be easily able to contact and request confirmation of that visit.

    A doctor cannot tell an employer what is "sufficient" certification, nor are Doctors ethically supposed to back date a certificate. At best you may get one to help you, at worst your wife has been caught lying about the GP visit which will only be compounded by you/her banging on about her rights. If it was confirmed during any disciplinary/complaints process that sh never actually visited her GP, her credibility and probably her complaint goes down the toilet.


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    #78
    mattaiuseire
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 295 ✭✭mattaiuseire


    davo10 wrote: »
    I don't think you are grasping the situation. What you think is sufficient and what the Doc thinks is sufficient really isn't sufficient if the employer requests certification from the GP relating to the visit your wife is supposed to have made. You need to understand that it would be both normal and expected that if an employee was ill enough to need to see a GP, they would get a cert for that absence from the GP. And if asked, would be easily able to contact and request confirmation of that visit.

    A doctor cannot tell an employer what is "sufficient" certification, nor are Doctors ethically supposed to back date a certificate. At best you may get one to help you, at worst your wife has been caught lying about the GP visit which will only be compounded by you/her banging on about her rights. If it was confirmed during any disciplinary/complaints process that sh never actually visited her GP, her credibility and probably her complaint goes down the toilet.

    So a doctor isn't qualified to tell people whether or not they are fit enough for work?
    There will be no need to backdate if she can have a cert stating she is fit for work. What will the employer do, say they don't believe a medical professional? These people make ****ing sandwiches and serve people cigarettes, they don't know jack, and if she has to blag them to save face then so be it.
    There is no complaint, she just wants to return to work and learn from this experience. She has definitely learned a valuable lesson.


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    #79
    carltonleon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭carltonleon


    Again in my eyes she only needs a cert for Monday. She does not need a cert for Tuesday or Wednesday because it was the opinion of the company that she was not fit for work.If she gets a cert for Monday then it would appear the the DOCTOR(in inverted commas) thought she was fit enough to go back to work on Tuesday. Now if the company has an occupational therapist who examined her and said she is not fit for work then fine but I do not get the impression that was the case.
    Two things at play here either tell them that the doctor would not give her a cert for Tuesday and Wednesday because in his opinion she was fit for work. The 2nd would be to tell the employer that she did not bother going back to the doctor because he had already intimated that she was ok to work on Tuesday by only giving her a note for Monday and that she was not going to spend another €50 just to get a note that she knew the doctor would not give her.


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    #80
    Wesser
    Registered Users Posts: 1,813 ✭✭✭Wesser


    I think it really interesting that nearly every single poster has recommended just getting the doctor to do up some kind of a cert.
    What about the doctor? Is it ok to lie to the doctor? Is it ok to ask the doctor to lie on the cert? Coz that's what it is in the cert.... A lie. Technically speaking a doctor could be up in front of the medical council for lying. What about the doctor patient trusting relationship. You trust your doctor, but can your doctor trust you? They are a human being at the end of the day. I think asking your doctor to lie is an Afront to your doctor.


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    #81
    mattaiuseire
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 295 ✭✭mattaiuseire


    carltonleon wrote: »
    Again in my eyes she only needs a cert for Monday. She does not need a cert for Tuesday or Wednesday because it was the opinion of the company that she was not fit for work.If she gets a cert for Monday then it would appear the the DOCTOR(in inverted commas) thought she was fit enough to go back to work on Tuesday. Now if the company has an occupational therapist who examined her and said she is not fit for work then fine but I do not get the impression that was the case.
    Two things at play here either tell them that the doctor would not give her a cert for Tuesday and Wednesday because in his opinion she was fit for work. The 2nd would be to tell the employer that she did not bother going back to the doctor because he had already intimated that she was ok to work on Tuesday by only giving her a note for Monday and that she was not going to spend another €50 just to get a note that she knew the doctor would not give her.

    Thanks, but she didn't go to the doc on Monday so there is no sick note for this day.
    She's gonna go the doc first thing and see what the doc says. Obviously she won't mention she lied to her boss about going the docs on monday, but she will say her boss has asked for a note to cover the Monday and that she went back on Tuesday but was sent home even though she felt fine. The doc I'm hoping should either write a note including Monday and stating fine to return to work, or just one note stating fit for work. If employer asks where sick note for monday is, tell them you asked the doc and that's what was given with the advice that that was all that was needed.
    Her boss couldn't send her home, and they will have it on file that she had a complaint about her back but the doctor deemed her fine to go back to work. All covered (I hope).


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    #82
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    mattaiuseire wrote: »
    So a doctor isn't qualified to tell people whether or not they are fit enough for work?
    There will be no need to backdate if she can have a cert stating she is fit for work. What will the employer do, say they don't believe a medical professional? These people make ****ing sandwiches and serve people cigarettes, they don't know jack, and if she has to blag them to save face then so be it.
    There is no complaint, she just wants to return to work and learn from this experience. She has definitely learned a valuable lesson.

    You are missing the point, the Doctor cannot decide what certification will suffice, (s)he cannot declare that a cert informing an employer that an employee is fit to return to work will trump a certification for sick leave.

    Also, to be clear, a Doctors cert does not excuse you from work, it merely explains why you are absent. An employer is not required to allow an employee to resume work after an illness just because a GP says so.


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    #83
    mattaiuseire
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 295 ✭✭mattaiuseire


    Wesser wrote: »
    I think it really interesting that nearly every single poster has recommended just getting the doctor to do up some kind of a cert.
    What about the doctor? Is it ok to lie to the doctor? Is it ok to ask the doctor to lie on the cert? Coz that's what it is in the cert.... A lie. Technically speaking a doctor could be up in front of the medical council for lying. What about the doctor patient trusting relationship. You trust your doctor, but can your doctor trust you? They are a human being at the end of the day. I think asking your doctor to lie is an Afront to your doctor.

    Sorry, where is the lie? All she is asking for is an examination and confirmation that she is fit for work. Don't forget she did hurt her back so technically she isn't lying, just bended the truth slightly when it comes to blagging a day off work for it. What if she did go in work and her back jarred? No one can say.


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    #84
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Wesser wrote: »
    I think it really interesting that nearly every single poster has recommended just getting the doctor to do up some kind of a cert.
    What about the doctor? Is it ok to lie to the doctor? Is it ok to ask the doctor to lie on the cert? Coz that's what it is in the cert.... A lie. Technically speaking a doctor could be up in front of the medical council for lying. What about the doctor patient trusting relationship. You trust your doctor, but can your doctor trust you? They are a human being at the end of the day. I think asking your doctor to lie is an Afront to your doctor.

    You are absolutely correct, I can assure you GPs are ethically bound to refuse such a request.


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    #85
    mattaiuseire
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 295 ✭✭mattaiuseire


    davo10 wrote: »
    You are missing the point, the Doctor cannot decide what certification will suffice, (s)he cannot declare that a cert informing an employer that an employee is fit to return to work will trump a certification for sick leave.

    Also, to be clear, a Doctors cert does not excuse you from work, it merely explains why you are absent. An employer is not required to allow an employee to resume work after an illness just because a GP says so.

    That's fine but that's up to the employer. I think an employer would be stupid to ignore the advice of a GP in this case.


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    #86
    Wesser
    Registered Users Posts: 1,813 ✭✭✭Wesser


    I think it really interesting that nearly every single poster has recommended just getting the doctor to do up some kind of a cert.
    What about the doctor? Is it ok to lie to the doctor? Is it ok to ask the doctor to lie on the cert? Coz that's what it is in the cert.... A lie. Technically speaking a doctor could be up in front of the medical council for lying. What about the doctor patient trusting relationship. You trust your doctor, but can your doctor trust you? They are a human being at the end of the day. I think asking your doctor to lie is an Afront to your doctor.


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    #87
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    mattaiuseire wrote: »
    just bended the truth slightly when it comes to blagging a day off work for it. What if she did go in work and her back jarred? No one can say.

    You don't see the issue with this statement?


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    #88
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    mattaiuseire wrote: »
    That's fine but that's up to the employer. I think an employer would be stupid to ignore the advice of a GP in this case.

    Why would it be stupid?


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    #89
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,572 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    mattaiuseire wrote: »
    I think the way forward is, as mentioned above in your helpful posts, to go to the docs tomorrow and explain she took Monday off, rested and took OTC painkillers, then returned to work on Tues but was told to go home and what she wants is an examination and if doc thinks ok, a certificate confirming she is fit for work. Grab this and go straight up to work with it. If asked why didn't get sick notes, tell them didn't think it was necessary as only took 1 day off, plus the doctor said this "fit for work" certificate would be sufficient.

    Hows that guys?


    Will a doctor give a "return to work" cert without having seen her in the first place, particularly if they've never seen her for anything before ??

    Its a gamble only ye can tell if its worth a punt... I'd be wondering how she could get a return to work cert and not able to get a sick cert.. It depends how particular they are on their record keeping etc.. Personally I'd be asking the hard questions and wouldn't be satisfied without a sick cert being produced.. and so problems would happen from there..

    For me the big thing is being lied to, tell her not to tell any more lies and if the company ask anything about the sick cert she should come clean.. piling more lies on top of lies could loose her the job altogether !


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    #90
    mattaiuseire
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 295 ✭✭mattaiuseire


    davo10 wrote: »
    You don't see the issue with this statement?

    Of course but it's not like we're asking a doctor to co-conspire against the medical profession. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone davo10.


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    #91
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    mattaiuseire wrote: »
    Of course but it's not like we're asking a doctor to co-conspire against the medical profession. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone davo10.

    You are asking the Doctor to conspire against the employer. Here's a biblical one for you, "For whatever a man might sow, that also he will reap"


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