Foursomes: Odds/Evens Strategy?

ShriekingSheet

The venues for Barton Shield, Barton Cup, Jimmy Bruen, Pierce Purcell etc are drawn now. I've never fully figured out how to break down a course in a way that genuinely helps a foursomes pair to decided who is more suited to the odd or even holes.

Much is made of the par 3s, and the common thought seems to be the stronger player should take them, if there's a bias in how they fall on odds or evens. But that also means, the weaker player could be driving the ball more. If it's a tight or long course, weak drives on par 4s and 5s could mean the lower man is playing a number of chip out / lay up shots. The better player driving the ball long and into play could mean the higher partner might do less damage with irons to greens. Plus, where greens are missed, you have a (presumably) good pitcher of the ball to step in.

Whatever way you slice it, I think there must be a way to simply break down the numbers and point to some basic insight. For example, is a "shots to the green" stat important? One course I'm playing has 11 versus 7, in terms of regulation shots to the green.

Par 5s are also very important I think. The lower player, if teeing off, has the opportunity to both drive and hit a short iron or wedge to the green, where as the higher man is only bumping down a lay up shot. Where the roles are reversed, the stronger player is likely far less involved in the hole hitting the second shot.

Aside from what numbers and stats can say, there's certainly key holes/shots to be taken into account, e.g: long par 3s or second shots to par 4s over water. Or if certain drives or shots to the green fall more heavily on one player in the closing holes, it might be worth putting that pressure on the lower handicap man.

It all seems really inexact, and there's a fair argument that it makes little real difference - that you either play better or you don't. Still, in years of playing, I've found that 95% of the time the opposing club shows up with the same low/high man on the odds or evens as we have, as a completely independent decision, so there must be some rationale to it.

Maybe the Irish Mixed Foursomes are on to something by just stipulating the man plays off the odds in the rules!

Has anyone got any massively insightful thoughts / experience?

Ronney

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

The venues for Barton Shield, Barton Cup, Jimmy Bruen, Pierce Purcell etc are drawn now. I've never fully figured out how to break down a course in a way that genuinely helps a foursomes pair to decided who is more suited to the odd or even holes.

Much is made of the par 3s, and the common thought seems to be the stronger player should take them, if there's a bias in how they fall on odds or evens. But that also means, the weaker player could be driving the ball more. If it's a tight or long course, weak drives on par 4s and 5s could mean the lower man is playing a number of chip out / lay up shots. The better player driving the ball long and into play could mean the higher partner might do less damage with irons to greens. Plus, where greens are missed, you have a (presumably) good pitcher of the ball to step in.

Whatever way you slice it, I think there must be a way to simply break down the numbers and point to some basic insight. For example, is a "shots to the green" stat important? One course I'm playing has 11 versus 7, in terms of regulation shots to the green.

Par 5s are also very important I think. The lower player, if teeing off, has the opportunity to both drive and hit a short iron or wedge to the green, where as the higher man is only bumping down a lay up shot. Where the roles are reversed, the stronger player is likely far less involved in the hole hitting the second shot.

Aside from what numbers and stats can say, there's certainly key holes/shots to be taken into account, e.g: long par 3s or second shots to par 4s over water. Or if certain drives or shots to the green fall more heavily on one player in the closing holes, it might be worth putting that pressure on the lower handicap man.

It all seems really inexact, and there's a fair argument that it makes little real difference - that you either play better or you don't. Still, in years of playing, I've found that 95% of the time the opposing club shows up with the same low/high man on the odds or evens as we have, as a completely independent decision, so there must be some rationale to it.

Maybe the Irish Mixed Foursomes are on to something by just stipulating the man plays off the odds in the rules!

Has anyone got any massively insightful thoughts / experience?

So many factors really at play here

One thing to look at is Driving length. In comps like PP and JB you might have younger lads who bomb it with shorter hitters who have good shortgames.

Try then look at the average 2nd shot length from each persons drive and what your left in trying to keep as many 2nd shots in the sub 150 yds as possible.

Also for match play in the likes of the Barton Cup where you might have a 14 and scratch playing together worth looking at the last 4/5 holes as to how par 3's/5 fall

eg a finish of Par 3 4 5 4 Scratch guy could be playing 4 approach shots to set up birdie puts and if not securing the par for the half!

HighLine

Hard to call really. I often find that the main difference between a low and high handicap is merely consistency so putting the lower guy on par 3s etc. might not be the best way to go.

If both players know the course, work out which holes you might have issues with driving and see how it fits with your partner.

Golfgorfield

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

The venues for Barton Shield, Barton Cup, Jimmy Bruen, Pierce Purcell etc are drawn now. I've never fully figured out how to break down a course in a way that genuinely helps a foursomes pair to decided who is more suited to the odd or even holes.

Much is made of the par 3s, and the common thought seems to be the stronger player should take them, if there's a bias in how they fall on odds or evens. But that also means, the weaker player could be driving the ball more. If it's a tight or long course, weak drives on par 4s and 5s could mean the lower man is playing a number of chip out / lay up shots. The better player driving the ball long and into play could mean the higher partner might do less damage with irons to greens. Plus, where greens are missed, you have a (presumably) good pitcher of the ball to step in.

Whatever way you slice it, I think there must be a way to simply break down the numbers and point to some basic insight. For example, is a "shots to the green" stat important? One course I'm playing has 11 versus 7, in terms of regulation shots to the green.

Par 5s are also very important I think. The lower player, if teeing off, has the opportunity to both drive and hit a short iron or wedge to the green, where as the higher man is only bumping down a lay up shot. Where the roles are reversed, the stronger player is likely far less involved in the hole hitting the second shot.

Aside from what numbers and stats can say, there's certainly key holes/shots to be taken into account, e.g: long par 3s or second shots to par 4s over water. Or if certain drives or shots to the green fall more heavily on one player in the closing holes, it might be worth putting that pressure on the lower handicap man.

It all seems really inexact, and there's a fair argument that it makes little real difference - that you either play better or you don't. Still, in years of playing, I've found that 95% of the time the opposing club shows up with the same low/high man on the odds or evens as we have, as a completely independent decision, so there must be some rationale to it.

Maybe the Irish Mixed Foursomes are on to something by just stipulating the man plays off the odds in the rules!

Has anyone got any massively insightful thoughts / experience?

Sheet,


Based on experience over the years, most notably the past few years barton shield.
This is absolutely hugely important, myself and my partner worked out our strengths and weaknesses and went from there, painstakingly going through each hole of each course based on either way around.

It was tedious but i 100% believe it was a big help winning the barton shield in 2014, both pairings worked it out this way for each venue.

paulos53

Based on my experience half of the team are usually shaking at the prospect of teeing off on the 1st with a crowd watching. That makes it an easy decision

Golfgraffix

I think only important for Barton Shield and Junior cup. The low guys have the consistency to work out the best order.

When you get into Barton Cup, Jimmy Bruen and Pierce Purcell I think it can put unnecessary pressure on a player to come up with a shot.

I have been lucky to not have missed a Barton Cup match in 9 years and my answer is always to same to my partner, I don't care what order I play in

J

ShriekingSheet

Golfgorfield wrote: »

Sheet,


Based on experience over the years, most notably the past few years barton shield.
This is absolutely hugely important, myself and my partner worked out our strengths and weaknesses and went from there, painstakingly going through each hole of each course based on either way around.

It was tedious but i 100% believe it was a big help winning the barton shield in 2014, both pairings worked it out this way for each venue.

Very helpful to know, thanks.

Sounds like it wasn't just a case of giving someone more or less drives/approach shots, but that you looked at the actual types of shots in detail and matched them to the player preference.

Can you give an example or two? I imagine it's giving someone drives cut/draw holes that match their shot shape off the tee, or if you've a good wedge player, trying to get them in for the short par 4 approaches, or 3rd shots to par 5s, but I'm just guessing.

Also interestingly, it sounds like you simply made solid pairs and had little/no rotation in personnel?

Golfgorfield

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Very helpful to know, thanks.

Sounds like it wasn't just a case of giving someone more or less drives/approach shots, but that you looked at the actual types of shots in detail and matched them to the player preference.

Can you give an example or two? I imagine it's giving someone drives cut/draw holes that match their shot shape off the tee, or if you've a good wedge player, trying to get them in for the short par 4 approaches, or 3rd shots to par 5s, but I'm just guessing.

Also interestingly, it sounds like you simply made solid pairs and had little/no rotation in personnel?

Well it was very in depth based on below (my pairing)

Player 1: Long hitter, v good irons, v poor chipping, ok putter.

Player 2: Straight driver, wedge play, chipping and putting excellent.

So the plan was for player 1 to be hitting as many iron approach shots as possible, this allowed him to go for every pin, as P2 is a brilliant chipper, so minimal risk of bogies, and the aggressiveness of the iron play will create many birdie chances. This also kept P1 away from many chip shots, which is a real weakness.

For example on one course P1 was hitting 13 approach shots, incl par 3 and par 4 2nd shots. We were dynamite there!


Weve lost once in our last 15 matches so its defo worked, but we have 2 solid pairings, however this is a system we use and it has worked great the past 2 years. All ireland win 2014, Semi final 2015.

ShriekingSheet

Golfgorfield wrote: »

Well it was very in depth based on below (my pairing)

Player 1: Long hitter, v good irons, v poor chipping, ok putter.

Player 2: Straight driver, wedge play, chipping and putting excellent.

So the plan was for player 1 to be hitting as many iron approach shots as possible, this allowed him to go for every pin, as P2 is a brilliant chipper, so minimal risk of bogies, and the aggressiveness of the iron play will create many birdie chances. This also kept P1 away from many chip shots, which is a real weakness.

For example on one course P1 was hitting 13 approach shots, incl par 3 and par 4 2nd shots. We were dynamite there!


Weve lost once in our last 15 matches so its defo worked, but we have 2 solid pairings, however this is a system we use and it has worked great the past 2 years. All ireland win 2014, Semi final 2015.

That's an amazing performance. And yeah, good honesty there to assess and acknowledge the weakness in each others games. Cheers for the insight.