Luas Drivers pay

JustShon

jimmybeige wrote: »

What exactly does market rate mean in this instance?

It's a cop-out line to avoid having to actually back up his arguments. He can just shout "It's the market rate!" and (in his mind) auto-win the argument.

Similar to how he can just say "There is no €60k!" and not back it up and auto-win too.

Martypants1

Hemerodrome wrote: »

They have the safety of hundreds of people in their hands and they have to have eyes everywhere for unbelievably stupid drivers and moronic pedestrians. Pay 'em well I say.

Electricians have the safety of thousands.

Mechanics have the safety of hundreds.

The list goes on....

They work for a private company. Don't like the pay, get a new job, someone else will happily work for the good money they earn.

JustShon

ThisRegard wrote: »

Must be the first time you've encountered End of the Road?

Is he known for this ... style of posting?

ThisRegard

JustShon wrote: »

Is he known for this ... style of posting?

Absolutely. He's the "Black is White" guy of boards. Over in the politics forums he's not taking seriously at all at this point, just background noise.

Martypants1

eeguy wrote: »

Most have hit the top of their payscale.

Seems they just want more and to be paid the same as train drivers.

***** should go drive some trains then.

Loved to hear that they lost their bonus.

JustShon

ThisRegard wrote: »

Absolutely. He's the "Black is White" guy of boards. Over in the politics forums he's not taking seriously at all at this point, just background noise.

Good to know, I'll just scroll on past his posts from now on.

I haven't a clue if they 'deserver' the pay rise or not.

What I strongly object to is; the real agenda of siptu, which is to try and benchmark the pay of a private company to the salaries of state employees and to try and draw the dep of transport in to the pay negotiation.


I am a supporter of union's but not this sort of carry on.

Mr. CooL ICE

end of the road wrote: »

<wall of text-zilla>

Mod:

end of the road, your style of posting is infuriating to try to read and a nightmare for mobile users. If you are going to multiquote, break it down into more readable portions if you want people to take your posts seriously.

kjl

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Software development is just playing computer games all day. A four year old could do that.

Can confirm, am developer.

OldNotWIse

Apparently they have threatened more strike action and may even end up striking one or two days a week every week, with a possible ten day strike. Pity the fúckers just cant be sacked

JustShon

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Apparently they have threatened more strike action and may even end up striking one or two days a week every week, with a possible ten day strike. Pity the fúckers just cant be sacked

Agreed.

Need to get myself into a unionised job one of these days so a bunch of us can just get together and force our employer into giving us more money whenever we want.

SuperTortoise

What do we think, is it the unions that are being silly and pushing their own agenda or is it the drivers that are instructing the unions and the unions have no choice but to go along with it?

You could imagine the outrage if the unions refused to negoitate on behalf of the menbers because they thought it was unrealastic.

SuperTortoise

.

westcoast66

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Apparently they have threatened more strike action and may even end up striking one or two days a week every week, with a possible ten day strike. Pity the fúckers just cant be sacked

Why cant they be sacked? Strike Day 1 - Warning 1. Strike Day 2 - Warning 2. Strike Day 3 - Dismissal.

osarusan

westcoast66 wrote: »

Why cant they be sacked? Strike Day 1 - Warning 1. Strike Day 2 - Warning 2. Strike Day 3 - Dismissal.

They'd have to sack all of them.

They'd be without any drivers until new ones were hired and trained.

I'd imagine that would be a few weeks at least - nobody wants that delay.

The whole thing has gone too far now for the drivers, and on the union side the big agenda is to draw the department of transport in the the pay negations. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

It seems to be the first big push back by the unions to the government via a private company now that the rescission is over.

There is a bigger agenda that the drivers pay going on.

seamus

SuperTortoise wrote: »

What do we think, is it the unions that are being silly and pushing their own agenda or is it the drivers that are instructing the unions and the unions have no choice but to go along with it?

You could imagine the outrage if the unions refused to negoitate on behalf of the menbers because they thought it was unrealastic.

It's the unions. They're using the upcoming election in a cynical attempt to get their demands agreed to as quickly as possible. Their hope is that politicians will panic, get involved and put pressure on the company to resolve the issue as quickly as possible.

Look at all of the unions talking about strikes - CCW, NBRU, TUI, INMO. This is not about righting a wrong. It's about abusing their position and using an election as a cynical ploy to stuff money in their own pockets.

If it was really about "righting wrongs", they would have striked last year and not a couple of weeks before an election.

The only major difference is that the tram drivers aren't state employees and have absolutely zero public support. TransDev should start training up casual workers that they can bring in to provide a skeleton tram service during busy periods. That'll soften SIPTU's cough.

seamus

seamus wrote: »

It's the unions. They're using the upcoming election in a cynical attempt to get their demands agreed to as quickly as possible. Their hope is that politicians will panic, get involved and put pressure on the company to resolve the issue as quickly as possible.

Look at all of the unions talking about strikes - CCW, NBRU, TUI, INMO. This is not about righting a wrong. It's about abusing their position and using an election as a cynical ploy to stuff money in their own pockets.

If it was really about "righting wrongs", they would have striked last year and not a couple of weeks before an election.

The only major difference is that the tram drivers aren't state employees and have absolutely zero public support. TransDev should start training up casual workers that they can bring in to provide a skeleton tram service during busy periods. That'll soften SIPTU's cough.

Don't agree with that, however there is no harm it letting the drivers know that they are being use to a certain extent by union's to re exert their power.

Like in most pay disputes some of the drivers are gullible some are greedy and some dont agree with the strike but have no choice but to take part.

If it goes on private buses should be got in to help commuters but their should be no strike brakers.

Dirty Dingus McGee

I think they need to bring in some strikerbreakers. The kind they had in the 30's.

Azalea

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

I think they need to bring in some strikerbreakers. The kind they had in the 30's.

I don't know if they can bust heads like they used to, though.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

I think they need to bring in some strikerbreakers. The kind they had in the 30's.

I know this is after hours and people love to be outraged or wound up.

Union and pay negotiations are very nuanced it not about a big bad greedy business owner verses the down trodden starving worker who will be forced back to work by strikebrakers its not the 1913 lock out.

It a power/pay dispute between two well resourced groups that could have implications for other employers.

P.S sorry for the lack of a windup in my post.

ohnonotgmail

Anybody know what kind of training is required to be a luas driver in terms of duration?

Professey Chin

Azalea wrote: »

I don't know if they can bust heads like they used to, though.

Theyll just tell them stories that don't go anywhere instead

ectoraige

A Roman Cathlolic Hospital Chaplain starts on €44,849, increasing to €55,032. They should join the seminary.

Geuze

gandalf wrote: »

The wage seems very generous for a job where there is minimal qualifications needed and less than a years training to get up to spec? There certainly is no justification for strike action.

Just to show the difference in opinion out there, a colleague said to me today that they were "surprised at the low pay....especially for living in Dublin".

36k is an okay starting wage after training.

But 42k is not a great max wage.

JustShon

Geuze wrote: »

Just to show the difference in opinion out there, a colleague said to me today that they were "surprised at the low pay....especially for living in Dublin".

36k is an okay starting wage after training.

But 42k is not a great max wage.

What are you comparing those figures to?

I know plenty of people, myself included, who would love 36k per year.

Geuze

runawaybishop wrote: »

Pay is very good, you can't deny it. A 50% pay rise is nuts.

36k starting after training is good, yes.

For a single person in 20s, yes.

For somebody married with a mortgage, it's okay.


42k max isn't great.

JustShon

Geuze wrote: »

42k max isn't great.

Nobody's saying they should never get a pay rise ever. The problem is that they want such a massive sudden increase in pay. If I asked my boss for a 50% increase in my salary the only way I'd get it is if he died of the laughter and I got promoted to his job.

Geuze

Top of scale for clerical officer in PS is 37k.

Compared to that, the tram driver max of 42k isn't great, given the responsibility.

Geuze

Top of scale for clerical officer in PS is 37k.

Compared to that, the tram driver max of 42k isn't great, given the responsibility.

eeguy

Geuze wrote: »

36k starting after training is good, yes.

For a single person in 20s, yes.

For somebody married with a mortgage, it's okay.

42k max isn't great.

But what are you comparing their wages to? If you're comparing them to similar semi-skilled jobs, then they're quite a good wage. Not so much as DB or Irish Rail, but less than 10k off for a job that is arguably easier.

If you're comparing them to skilled wages then while they start great, the max isn't great. But you can't really compare semi-skilled and skilled wages, considering the training and experience required to get good skilled wages.

Geuze

Geuze wrote: »

Just to show the difference in opinion out there, a colleague said to me today that they were "surprised at the low pay....especially for living in Dublin".

36k is an okay starting wage after training.

But 42k is not a great max wage.

There is little to no point in bringing that up on AH or boards in general as to some people that salaries is fantastic and to others it an average or poor, from the vantage of my life its alight as a salary but nothing fantastic.

JustShon

Geuze wrote: »

Top of scale for clerical officer in PS is 37k.

Compared to that, the tram driver max of 42k isn't great, given the responsibility.

I'm still not on board with this "huge amount of responsibility" argument. The Luas drivers are the heroes our city deserves, fearlessly ferrying our vulnerable citizens safely to their destinations!

They drive a tram and have to not crash it into things.

ohnonotgmail

JustShon wrote: »

I'm still not on board with this "huge amount of responsibility" argument. The Luas drivers are the heroes our city deserves, fearlessly ferrying our vulnerable citizens safely to their destinations!

They drive a tram and have to not crash it into things.

and they dont even have to steer the things.

ThisRegard

Geuze wrote: »

42k max isn't great.

The salary should reflect the job. That's adequate in this case.

You had that eejit Paul Murphy yesterday evening trying to claim that these 'skilled' workers are low paid.

Danjamin1

ThisRegard wrote: »

The salary should reflect the job. That's adequate in this case.

You had that eejit Paul Murphy yesterday evening trying to claim that these 'skilled' workers are low paid.

Paul Murphy's a fcuking moron, I wouldn't listen to a word out of that clowns mouth. Calling the LUAS workers skilled & claiming they're underpaid is a joke. How is that ignoramus an elected representative?!

ThisRegard

ThisRegard wrote: »

The salary should reflect the job. That's adequate in this case.

You had that eejit Paul Murphy yesterday evening trying to claim that these 'skilled' workers are low paid.

After this thread had gone round in circles, attracted trolls, made some sensible point... you have hit on the central question how do you 'value' a job in term of pay what terms of reference would be used.

ohnonotgmail

Danjamin1 wrote: »

Paul Murphy's a fcuking moron, I wouldn't listen to a word out of that clowns mouth. Calling the LUAS workers skilled & claiming they're underpaid is a joke. How is that ignoramus an elected representative?!

you do a great disrespect to morons everywhere.

Saadyst

mariaalice wrote: »

After this thread had gone round in circles, attracted trolls, made some sensible point... you have hit on the central question how do you 'value' a job in term of pay what terms of reference would be used.

Is there anyone else that can do the same job at about the same quality, for less?

jimmybeige

mariaalice wrote: »

After this thread had gone round in circles, attracted trolls, made some sensible point... you have hit on the central question how do you 'value' a job in term of pay what terms of reference would be used.

Same way most industries do. You pay based on how difficult it is to find people who can do the job adequately. Whether this is finding someone with enough training and education to be a doctor or someone to do an undesirable and dangerous job like being a deep sea fishing. Both pay well for various reasons. It's really not that complicated.

As many people would be happy to do this tram driving job and it does not require any prior knowledge or training or any special ability that sets you apart before they teach you how to do the job, I would assume this would push the value down. Only the unions are pushing the value up as far as I can see.

JustShon

mariaalice wrote: »

After this thread had gone round in circles, attracted trolls, made some sensible point... you have hit on the central question how do you 'value' a job in term of pay what terms of reference would be used.

Clearly you get paid based on how unionised your job is.

jimmybeige

jimmybeige wrote: »

Same way most industries do. You pay based on how difficult it is to find people who can do the job adequately. Whether this is finding someone with enough training and education to be a doctor or someone to do an undesirable and dangerous job like being a deep sea fishing. Both pay well for various reasons. It's really not that complicated.

As many people would be happy to do this tram driving job and it does not require any prior knowledge or training or any special ability that sets you apart before they teach you how to do the job, I would assume this would push the value down. Only the unions are pushing the value up as far as I can see.

If that is so: their is a shortages of nurses in Ireland in fact there is world wide shortages of nurses but sticking to Ireland how come nurses are not paid say a 100k a year?

jimmybeige

mariaalice wrote: »

If that is so: their is a shortages of nurses in Ireland in fact there is world wide shortages of nurses but sticking to Ireland how come nurses are not paid say a 100k a year?

Because their employer can't afford to pay them more? Paying more money doesn't create more nurses also. There is a finite number of graduates.

seamus

Geuze wrote: »

36k starting after training is good, yes.

For a single person in 20s, yes.

For somebody married with a mortgage, it's okay.

Then maybe people with a mortgage shouldn't be applying for a job that won't cover it

Whether your training consist of 8 years in college or 8 weeks in a Luas cab, a €36k starting salary is good.

ThisRegard wrote: »

You had that eejit Paul Murphy yesterday evening trying to claim that these 'skilled' workers are low paid.

He also seemed to have difficulty understanding the difference between revenues and profits. The guy is an idiot, I'm glad he got nailed on that one.

ThisRegard

seamus wrote: »

He also seemed to have difficulty understanding the difference between revenues and profits. The guy is an idiot, I'm glad he got nailed on that one.

Yeah, when Cooper pulled him up on it I couldn't help but smile, and he then tried to stutter his way out of it.

SuperTortoise

mariaalice wrote: »

After this thread had gone round in circles, attracted trolls, made some sensible point... you have hit on the central question how do you 'value' a job in term of pay what terms of reference would be used.

To start off with, i'd compare it to what i do for a living and what i earn, which i think is a fairly normal and reasonable comparison?
Then i'd compare it to the many many other jobs that people do where they have to work much much harder and yet get paid less.

Sitting down in a nice warm, air-conditioned cab and pulling a few leavers and generally being on the ball is not all that hard a work, looking for 65k BASIC(?) for doing that is damnright greedy. Especially knowing that in order to cover the increase in wages will result in the price of tickets going up for the average joe's who as i mentioned earlier work much harder for much less.

Can anyone clarify if the 65k they are looking for is basic without overtime and bonuses?

Geuze

SuperTortoise wrote: »

Can anyone clarify if the 65k they are looking for is basic without overtime and bonuses?

SIPTU are looking for 39k starting [2015], 41,895 starting [2017].

http://transdevireland.ie/assets/files/Claim%20For%20Transdev%20Employees-%202.pdf

They are looking for 65k max of scale, [2017].

realdanbreen

Hemerodrome wrote: »

They have the safety of hundreds of people in their hands and they have to have eyes everywhere for unbelievably stupid drivers and moronic pedestrians. Pay 'em well I say.

Any job that you can be trained up to do in a few days should hardly pay any more than 25 or 30k a year.

My point is that it is difficult to 'value' a job, and that other condations such as how much can an employer pay, what is good for society comes in to it. It is not as simple issue.

In my limited knowledge of driving a luas 65k appeaser to be an enormous salary.

I said this before but a few years ago some utility was being installed outside my house, two subies came to fix the path afterwards. It was a freezing cold miserable day, they had their lunch in the van, did a superb job. I would say they had been plastering before the collapse of the Celtic tiger. That's hard work in my estimation so should they be paid more because the work is physically hard and they are out in all weathers.

jimmybeige

There are factors, but it's not that complicated either. As someone else said, is there anyone else that can do the same job at about the same quality, for less? I would imagine in this case that is very much an overwhelming yes. For society as you say, it would be good that they don't have to pay higher ticket prices to pay high salaries for jobs that others would happily do for much less and just as well, as this job does not require any special qualifications.