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PRTB - Landlord moving into Apartment

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  • 10-02-2016 8:38pm
    #1
    tommy100
    Registered Users Posts: 79 ✭✭


    Hi, i am a landlord waiting to move back into my apartment. I have all the correct notices and periods etc.
    The tenants filed a dispute as they wanted to stay, which has delayed my move. In the mean time one tenant has moved out. The other tenant has been problematic. The tenant is resfusing to pay rent and is currently residing in property.
    My questions are as follows.
    Can i move into the apartment this weekend as i had planned, ? ( tenant has been notified, but informs me that i have to give her 24 hour notice to enter apartment, as a landlord?)

    As one tenant has left, surely i can move in as owner occupier (Please note that they did not rent apartment together as awhole.)
    If tenant does not allow me in, is tenant liable for entire rent?
    I have heard that dispute hearing can take months to return with a verdict on a dispute hearing.
    Legally, what can i do about this situation?, as i need to make the move to dublin soon.


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Comments

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    #2
    Lantus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,027 ✭✭✭Lantus


    If you rented each room separate with an understanding that the living room is shared you could be able to move in all right. At that point your remaining tenant becomes a licencee. Hopefully all being well you can throw their trash out the front door and change the locks at your leisure with as little notice as you like.


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    #3
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,423 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    That may be fraught with legal and practical difficulties.

    You should seek legal advice before proceeding on such a course.


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    #4
    newacc2015
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭newacc2015


    IMO you have no choice but to call a solicitor. Ill informed that you might read online could mean this dispute going on for several months, maybe a year and a massive fine from the PRTB.

    I would find a decent Solicitor and not your mom and pop local solicitor who isnt too sure. A lot of Irish solicitors are clueless on the ins and outs of tenancy law.


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    #5
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,301 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    tommy100 wrote: »
    Please note that they did not rent apartment together as awhole.
    You could move in, but the problematic tenant could cause you stress, and also interfere with your personal property, so I wouldn't. Talk to a solicitor, and play very hardball with the remaining tenant.


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    #6
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    You need legal advice but do write to your tenant that as per her contract tenants are joint and severely liable for monthly rent. As the other tenant moved out, she is now on the hook for the full amount.


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    #7
    zl1whqvjs75cdy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,042 ✭✭✭zl1whqvjs75cdy


    If they're not paying rent issue eviction notices.


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    #8
    Lantus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,027 ✭✭✭Lantus


    davo10 wrote: »
    You need legal advice but do write to your tenant that as per her contract tenants are joint and severely liable for monthly rent. As the other tenant moved out, she is now on the hook for the full amount.

    Op has stated that they do not have a joint contract and only rent a room each with access to shared areas.


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    #9
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,455 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Purely as a hypothetical, and not for the OP to follow as they need legal advice, but once the tenancy has officially ended, by the correct notice having been served and protocol adhered to, and the landlord moved in, would it not then be a rent-a-room situation, where the tenant has no rights and can be kicked out at a moment's notice? Or does the original tenancy not end until the tenant moves out. Could the current tenant for instance agree to a licencee type situation, and a contract be drawn up to that effect? Of course a dispute lodged with the PRTB complicates things.

    Again OP ignore this as its hypothetical.


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    #10
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,301 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Or does the original tenancy not end until the tenant moves out.
    Pretty sure it's this.
    TheChizler wrote: »
    Could the current tenant for instance agree to a licencee type situation, and a contract be drawn up to that effect?
    If the tenant is not paying rent now, I doubt they'll sign into a new contract with less rights.

    =-=

    Personally, I'd check with the solicitor if you could officially move in, so that you could wander in at will and without notice (as you were officially living there). But only if the solicitor is sure this wouldn't go against you.


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    #11
    esforum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭esforum


    I would move in but that I dont think it would void the existing tenency and make that person a licensee, they signed a lease as a tenent and they would remain a tenent.

    I have visions of the Breakup happening here and I think Victors advise is the best you will get


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    #12
    Lantus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,027 ✭✭✭Lantus


    Is it a tenancy if they each only rented a room and had access to common areas. Basically neither had exclusive use of the property. Op needs to check the contract he issued.

    If the above is the case then its not covered by prtb. Moving in would be OK as one tenant has left. As remaining tenant never had exclusive use and new tenant is now owner then existing tenant is just a licencee. No rights.


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    #13
    tommy100
    Registered Users Posts: 79 ✭✭tommy100


    Thanks for all your comments, just to clarify, the current tenant does not have fixed contract anymore, so its just a part 4 tenancy.
    I live a few hours away, so just can't pop over.
    I blame the PRTB, Its all protection for the tenant and nothing for landlord.

    Can someone explain what OP is??


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    #14
    ZENER
    Registered Users Posts: 6,163 ✭✭✭ZENER


    What's to stop you moving in to the vacant room as a tenant ? I'm guessing it's up to you to choose tenants being the landlord ?

    Ken


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    #15
    Penny Tration
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,687 ✭✭✭✭Penny Tration


    tommy100 wrote: »
    Thanks for all your comments, just to clarify, the current tenant does not have fixed contract anymore, so its just a part 4 tenancy.
    I live a few hours away, so just can't pop over.
    I blame the PRTB, Its all protection for the tenant and nothing for landlord.

    Can someone explain what OP is??

    OP means "original poster" (you, the person who started this thread).

    Did your tenant rent a room, with access to common areas, or sign a lease for the entire building with others?


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    #16
    Lantus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,027 ✭✭✭Lantus


    tommy100 wrote: »
    Thanks for all your comments, just to clarify, the current tenant does not have fixed contract anymore, so its just a part 4 tenancy.
    I live a few hours away, so just can't pop over.
    I blame the PRTB, Its all protection for the tenant and nothing for landlord.

    Can someone explain what OP is??

    Did you rent each room separate to each tenant and each pay rent direct to you plus deposit?

    Or did you rent to both tenants at the same time jointly and they paid a single deposit and rent to you.


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    #17
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    If you rented the rooms separately I see no reason why you cannot move yourself into the spare room as a new tenant.


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    #18
    tommy100
    Registered Users Posts: 79 ✭✭tommy100


    2 bed apartment. Rented rooms at different times, one tenant is year and a half, other is 6 months. separate deposits and rents payed. Yes, they have full access to rent of the apartment.


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    #19
    Lantus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,027 ✭✭✭Lantus


    tommy100 wrote: »
    2 bed apartment. Rented rooms at different times, one tenant is year and a half, other is 6 months. separate deposits and rents payed. Yes, they have full access to rent of the apartment.

    You have rented rooms not the apartment. Thats good for you. Make sure the contract reflects that you rented a room with access to the apartment. It should.

    On what you've said you would be well within your rights to move in to the other bedroom. As the owner who doesn't pay rent the relationship changes to a licencee arrangement. You can as the owner make any changes you see fit. The tenancy has ended for your other tenant. I'd give fair warning that they will be leaving in x days after you move back in if they haven't gone by then already. Stuff thrown out and locks changed. Prtb don't cover this as a tenancy is classed as having exclusive use of a property which they never had. So let her complain away!

    Of course contact prtb yourself and threshold to get your own free advice.


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    #20
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    DrDonkey wrote: »
    Original Poster

    Rather than blaming the PRTB, check the contract that you originally issued to the remaining tenant... and see if you let them the apartment or the room.
    Then speak to your solicitor

    Unlikely there was any contract, I've rented rooms in houseshares for years and never say as much as a sight of paper work.


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    #21
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,644 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Op you have been well advised so move back into your home. Take up bedroom that others left.


    You have then to give the person her marching orders.

    You be better doing sooner then later if they are not paying rent god knows what apartment is like.


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    #22
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,455 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    And just to reiterate check out the legality of that with a professional first!


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    #23
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    TheChizler wrote: »
    And just to reiterate check out the legality of that with a professional first!

    If it was me I would just move in and not waste my time with checking anything out. The person living there has no rights to the other room nor have they exclusive rights to common areas. They basically have no card to play.


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    #24
    Lantus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,027 ✭✭✭Lantus


    Agree with above post. Get moved in and be as fair as you like. Give a month, week, or 24 hours as you please. If your 'tenant' gives you lip or attitude then reduce notice by 50% each time. Don't be treated as anything other than the rightful owner in your own home.

    Technically she is trespassing.


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    #25
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Can a tenant legally be required to shift her tenancy from a situation where she is defined as a tenant to that of a licencee if the LL moves in? I'm not so sure, she rented the apartment as a tenant, that is what her contract will say.


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    #26
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    davo10 wrote: »
    Can a tenant legally be required to shift her tenancy from a situation where she is defined as a tenant to that of a licencee if the LL moves in? I'm not so sure, she rented the apartment as a tenant, that is what her contract will say.

    She didn't rent the apartment, she rented a room.


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    #27
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Everleigh Hot Somehow wrote: »
    She didn't rent the apartment, she rented a room.

    Presumably it was a tenancy agreement rather than a licencee as the LL didn't live there.


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    #28
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    davo10 wrote: »
    Presumably it was a tenancy agreement rather than a licencee as the LL didn't live there.

    That tenancy agreement has been terminated now though?


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    #29
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    athtrasna wrote: »
    That tenancy agreement has been terminated now though?

    I understood from the op that it is being disputed. I'm not saying that the tenent is right, I'm saying that it may not be as easy as the op moving in and making it difficult for the tenent. It's unfortunate that LLs don't have more rights in these situations. Most likely this will be dragged out for months.


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    #30
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    athtrasna wrote: »
    That tenancy agreement has been terminated now though?

    The only way a tenancy can be terminated is by the methods set out in the RTA.
    RESIDENTIAL TENANCIES ACT 2004
    58.—(1) From the relevant date, a tenancy of a dwelling may not be terminated by the landlord or the tenant by means of a notice of forfeiture, a re-entry or any other process or procedure not provided by this Part.


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    #31
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    davo10 wrote: »
    Presumably it was a tenancy agreement rather than a licencee as the LL didn't live there.

    Its actually a bit of a grey area/up for debate. In some interpretations (including a prtb case) you are a licensee in a situation where rooms are rented separately from a LL even if he doesn't live there and as you don't have exclusive use of the property a LL can enter as he pleases etc.

    This all goes back to a similar debate a while back in which I made the point that the LL has a spare room to that needs to be filled and the situation really cannot be that anyone in the world can move into that room bar the LL, it would be absolutely ridiculous if he couldn't move himself into a spare room but could move absolutely anyone else into it.


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