PRTB - Landlord moving into Apartment

tommy100

Thanks again for all your comments. Just wondering how you all got your tenancy law knowledge.
Trying to keep my situation as civil and legal as possible, the prtb are a disgrace in how they treat LLs. I find that nobody is on the LL side.

I have been researching for a while on net about when a landlord moves in, does the tenant become a licensee there and then???is this a grey area or not??. I cant find any legal text in relation to this, except that if your living with OO, then your a licensee. 4ensic15, you have questioned this also.

Movin on, my solicitor has told me he sees no reason why i cannot move into the apartment. I have given the tenant notice to leave over 2 months ago, and have notified them a few times in the last few weeks to move out this weekend. So i am moving in tomorrow and i expect the tenant to move out. The tenant has no intention of movin out tho id say. Is their anyone on here, that can give me the gardai view on this situation, if it ends up getting messy. If tenant refuses to leave, can gardai evict tenant. Can i actually move their stuff outside the door and take the keys off them?? Is this legal???

tommy100

Tenant did have a fixed contract up until the start of this month. No contract now, just a rolling one

newacc2015

tommy100 wrote: »

Thanks again for all your comments. Just wondering how you all got your tenancy law knowledge.
Trying to keep my situation as civil and legal as possible, the prtb are a disgrace in how they treat LLs. I find that nobody is on the LL side.

I have been researching for a while on net about when a landlord moves in, does the tenant become a licensee there and then???is this a grey area or not??. I cant find any legal text in relation to this, except that if your living with OO, then your a licensee. 4ensic15, you have questioned this also.

Movin on, my solicitor has told me he sees no reason why i cannot move into the apartment. I have given the tenant notice to leave over 2 months ago, and have notified them a few times in the last few weeks to move out this weekend. So i am moving in tomorrow and i expect the tenant to move out. The tenant has no intention of movin out tho id say. Is their anyone on here, that can give me the gardai view on this situation, if it ends up getting messy. If tenant refuses to leave, can gardai evict tenant. Can i actually move their stuff outside the door and take the keys off them?? Is this legal???

Ireland doesnt really have a strong definition of what a tenancy or residence is. For example in California, if you received a letter at an address within the last 30 days. You are a resident. If you are a couple and split up, if you refuse to move out. Then your ex has to go to the local court to get you evicted. But thats the thing. An eviction is quick and easy unlike the PRTB.

The PRTB has changed the definition of what a tenancy is between rulings, so there isnt even consistency from them on it.

It is a civil issue. The Gardai wont get involved. I wouldnt move their stuff out. I think you are bordering on an illegal eviction possibly. I imagine the tenant will leave pretty quickly.

If I were you. I would have called a solicitor in the big five eg McCann Fitzgerald or Arthur Cox. They wont be cheap. But there is a handful of people in those firms dealing with these issues everyday.

quadrifoglio verde

If they're a licensee they've about as much rights as pigs going to slaughter
Actually pigs going to slaughter probably have more rights.

Move in, give her notice to leave as a licensee and if not turf her stuff out and change the locks

Or let her stay there for the next 12 months not paying rent, while you're stuck paying rent somewhere else and fighting with the prtb and then the courts to get her out

TheChizler

Be very careful OP, at least give a day extra between the eviction date and when you move in if that's what you've decided to do. Just so there's no ambiguity of when the eviction date passed.

I think you're taking a risk here. It might be fine or the PRTB might decide you acted illegally and fine you four figures. At least communicate with them before you make the move, show you're engaging, ask for their opinion.

Medications aren't too slow and you could show you are reasonable by agreeing that they could stay on as a licencee if you move in after the eviction date. If the PRTB agree that they are no longer a tenant then it would be a lot safer to get rid of them for not paying rent, than if you were to just throw them out the day you move in.

Mrs OBumble

tommy100 wrote: »

Is their anyone on here, that can give me the gardai view on this situation, if it ends up getting messy. If tenant refuses to leave, can gardai evict tenant. Can i actually move their stuff outside the door and take the keys off them?? Is this legal???

Only the guards can tell you their view - but typically they don't get involved in civil disputes. If you call them saying there's an intruder in your house, and then turn up to find that the intruder has been living there for months /years, I'd guess they won't be amused, and it's likely your phone number would go on their "troublesome-caller" list (or whatever they call it - I'm sure they have good/bad lists), which could affect the response if you need them for a real crime.

And I wouldn't advise just putting the tenant on the street: you never know what s/he or friends might do next if you piss them off that much - some very small acts on their part could do a LOT of damage to your property.

I know you want him/her out - but they do have to find somewhere else to go, and that's not as easy as it once was.

Also, if you put him / her on the street and that's followed by crime against them, it's you who will be painted in a bad light all over the media.

endacl

What's the situation if a landlord has legally terminated a tenancy, dissolving the landlord/tenant relationship, moves into the property, doesn't seek rent, making the ex-tenant essentially a non-paying guest? If they de-register with PRTB, and exit the landlord business, what remit would the PRTB have to do anything at all?

Lantus

Some good comments. Op has clarified he is OK to move into property immediately which he should do asap. Whose name are utilities in? Get them transferred to you asap if not already.

Depending on your style you could hold parties, play music, remove TV from lounge. Remove plates and cutelry etc. Basically cause disruption to the non rent paying leech so they tire and leave. I'd make sure you have a good lock on your bedroom door as they may retaliate.

Or subject to further clarification just give reasonable notice that they have x days to find somewhere new and after that date you are having all new licks fitted.

If you are legally entitled to move in then you are the rightful owner living in their property and therefore the other party is just a licencee and has zero rights. Any previous contract she had expired and it was only a room rent anyway.

You know the tenant and are best suited to how they will react. So play it nicely or not so nice but rember the relationship is one of parent and child and never be treated otherwise. Don't be submissive or back down. If you want to have a run and flop out all sweaty or change channel do it. Your house your rules, at all times.

I would also print off a bug sheet of house rules and pin to back of front door and her door like no guests, no music, and you have x days before locks are changed. Throw out any guests on the spot. Plan for these eventualities before and what you will do.

4ensic15

newacc2015 wrote: »

If I were you. I would have called a solicitor in the big five eg McCann Fitzgerald or Arthur Cox. They wont be cheap. But there is a handful of people in those firms dealing with these issues everyday.

They won't have a handful of people dealing with these issues every day! They are unlikely to have even one. This kind of work doesn't pay. Some of the big five wouldn't even take the o/p as a client for any type of work at all, as they do no private client work. The cost of going to the big 5 would be more than the fine for an illegal eviction if it ever came to it.
Most of the legal profession are woefully ignorant of the RTA. A barrister was asked by a judge in court the other day if a landlord couldn't bring an action for ejectment in the District Court. The barrister had to tell him that an action for ejectment had been abolished in 2005 in respect of tenancies comprehended by the RTA.
Eversheds who have the contract with the PRTB might have some expertise and the barrsiters they use and one or two others who appear in the courts in PRTB cases (a small handful) as well as those who are adjudicators or sit on the board of the PRTB.
The o/p should move in, and establish himself, get name on all utility bills etc, have his car parked overnight there etc and then change the locks. When the former tenant comes back he can pass out his bags to the former tenant.

quadrifoglio verde

4ensic15 wrote: »

They won't have a handful of people dealing with these issues every day! They are unlikely to have even one. This kind of work doesn't pay. Some of the big five wouldn't even take the o/p as a client for any type of work at all, as they do no private client work. The cost of going to the big 5 would be more than the fine for an illegal eviction if it ever came to it.
Most of the legal profession are woefully ignorant of the RTA. A barrister was asked by a judge in court the other day if a landlord couldn't bring an action for ejectment in the District Court. The barrister had to tell him that an action for ejectment had been abolished in 2005 in respect of tenancies comprehended by the RTA.
Eversheds who have the contract with the PRTB might have some expertise and the barrsiters they use and one or two others who appear in the courts in PRTB cases (a small handful) as well as those who are adjudicators or sit on the board of the PRTB.
The o/p should move in, and establish himself, get name on all utility bills etc, have his car parked overnight there etc and then change the locks. When the former tenant comes back he can pass out his bags to the former tenant.

The cost of doing a legal eviction including loss of rent, is probably more or close to equal to an illegal eviction if it does go against you with a good bit less stress

Broken system is broken

4ensic15

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

The cost of doing a legal eviction including loss of rent, is probably more or close to equal to an illegal eviction if it does go against you with a good bit less stress

Broken system is broken

The max in an illegal eviction is 20k. Rarely does it reach that level. Most cases are 3k. The stress of a legal eviction is dreadful. Landlords don't know when it will end or if the tenant will go.

Lantus

Why consult an expensive solicitor when asking the prtb is free?

Anyway, the confusion is predominantly the word tenant. This is a legal term which describes a person who rents an entire property from the owner or landlord for an agreed time period. A licencee rents a room or portion of property and they are not covered by the prtb or tenancies act. Read leases vs licences on the prtb website and sharing accommodation with your landlord on citizens advice.com if not already done so.

Fiona

I don't see what the problem is, you have terminated the tenancy within the guidelines of the law as you want to move back into your own home which you are legally entitled to do.

I would advise the PRTB of the current situation and of your proposed intentions.

Then I would wait a week after the eviction date specified in your termination notice and I would move back into the property.

I would deregister from the PRTB, I would contact the Revenue to advise them that you are back in your family home and are no longer self assessed for taxation purposes.

I would then take over all the bills in your own name and then just change the locks and remove the other persons belongings or else you could leave them there and call the Garda and tell them there is an intruder in your house.

You have fulfilled your legal obligations tough if they want to stay its your home and you gave them the correct notice to vacate as set out by the PRTB.

4ensic15

Fiona wrote: »

I don't see what the problem is, you have terminated the tenancy within the guidelines of the law as you want to move back into your own home which you are legally entitled to do.

The law is not about guidelines. The law is the law. There is only one method of termination allowed.

Fiona wrote: »

I would advise the PRTB of the current situation and of your proposed intentions.

The PRTB is not an advice service and the staff of the PRTB can't and won't authorise any action.

Fiona wrote: »

Then I would wait a week after the eviction date specified in your termination notice and I would move back into the property.

If a termiantion notice is not complied with a landlord has to initiate a dispute with the PRTB. Self help is not allowed.

Fiona wrote: »

I would deregister from the PRTB, I would contact the Revenue to advise them that you are back in your family home and are no longer self assessed for taxation purposes.

Fiona wrote: »

I would then take over all the bills in your own name and then just change the locks and remove the other persons belongings or else you could leave them there and call the Garda and tell them there is an intruder in your house.

The Guards will not get involved in a civil matter.

Fiona wrote: »

You have fulfilled your legal obligations tough if they want to stay its your home and you gave them the correct notice to vacate as set out by the PRTB.

It is arguable that the o/p has not fulfilled his legal obligations. It all depends on what view is taken of the original agreement. If he created a registrable tenancy he can't just change the locks. If it was never a tenancy he could.

slowjoe17

OP, did you resolve the situation here?

the_syco

slowjoe17 wrote: »

OP, did you resolve the situation here?

Their new thread; licensèe/Tenant belongings furnishings removal

Fiona

4ensic15 wrote: »

The law is not about guidelines. The law is the law. There is only one method of termination allowed.

If he serves the notice in the correct manner than what is the problem, just because a person doesn't want to move out doesn't mean you can hold a person ransom for wanting to move back into their own home.

I rented out my apt to somebody for a number of years, I served the notice on them that I wanted to move back and then they handed over the keys on the agreed date but if they didn't they would have been turfed out plain and simple my house I gave you adequate notice time to vacate.

4ensic15

Fiona wrote: »

If he serves the notice in the correct manner than what is the problem, just because a person doesn't want to move out doesn't mean you can hold a person ransom for wanting to move back into their own home.

I rented out my apt to somebody for a number of years, I served the notice on them that I wanted to move back and then they handed over the keys on the agreed date but if they didn't they would have been turfed out plain and simple my house I gave you adequate notice time to vacate.

If the person doesn't vacate, there is an overholding dispute. Change the locks and the tenant will go to the PRTB and claim an illegal eviction. Giving notice does not mean rights to change locks accrue when the notice expires.

Greenmachine

OP are you planning on moving into the property for a.your exclusive use or b. owner/occupier rent a room type situation.
If a. you have a stronger case for getting the tenant out, as you have a legally recognised cause on which to effect, a terminate of any lease fixed term or not provided adequate notice is served. In the case of b. you are in more uncertain territory from what I can tell as you are trying to implement a substantially materially change to the terms to the agreement in place.

Greenmachine

Greenmachine wrote: »

OP are you planning on moving into the property for a.your exclusive use or b. owner/occupier rent a room type situation.
If a. you have a stronger case for getting the tenant out, as you have a legally recognised cause on which to effect, a terminate of any lease fixed term or not provided adequate notice is served. In the case of b. you are in more uncertain territory from what I can tell as you are trying to implement a substantially materially change to the terms to the agreement in place.

I don't think it makes any difference. If he rents out a room it's not something that will be highlighted as there is no requirement to register or make it known to anybody.

That's said if that's the plan I'd give it a few weeks till the previous tenant has properly moved on as I would be telling them that the plan is to move in with exclusive use in order to make getting them gone easier.

athtrasna

The OP is already in by the sound of their other thread

The_Conductor

Lantus wrote: »

Why consult an expensive solicitor when asking the prtb is free?

Anyway, the confusion is predominantly the word tenant. This is a legal term which describes a person who rents an entire property from the owner or landlord for an agreed time period. A licencee rents a room or portion of property and they are not covered by the prtb or tenancies act. Read leases vs licences on the prtb website and sharing accommodation with your landlord on citizens advice.com if not already done so.

The PRTB do not offer advice- thats why you have to go to a solicitor.

Greenmachine

Everleigh Hot Somehow wrote: »

I don't think it makes any difference. If he rents out a room it's not something that will be highlighted as there is no requirement to register or make it known to anybody.

That's said if that's the plan I'd give it a few weeks till the previous tenant has properly moved on as I would be telling them that the plan is to move in with exclusive use in order to make getting them gone easier.

What exactly is their not requirement to register. If I was in the landlords shoes I would do the same if I had provided the required notice under part 4 based on the tenants length of occupation or if they had been otherwise difficult, but, I would also be prepared for the tenant to dig their heels in.
I wouldn't effect a claim to that effect if i plan to still house share.

Greenmachine

Greenmachine wrote: »

What exactly is their not requirement to register. .

If the op moves out the current person living there and then proceeds to move in another person who will be a lodger there is no requirement for the op to register the fact he has a lodger with anybody.

As far as the outside world is concerned there is no difference between the op moving in alone or the op moving in a renting to a lodger, only the lodger and the op need know about it. Unless the previous tenant is stalking the ops house (hence why I said he should probably wait till that person has definitely moved on) then there is nothing to flag the fact he is renting a room.

athtrasna

The op is moving /has moved in, they are the landlord.

slowjoe17

Greenmachine wrote: »

What exactly is their not requirement to register. If I was in the landlords shoes I would do the same if I had provided the required notice under part 4 based on the tenants length of occupation or if they had been otherwise difficult, but, I would also be prepared for the tenant to dig their heels in.
I wouldn't effect a claim to that effect if i plan to still house share.

PRTB is the Private Residential _Tenancies_ Board. OP is the owner and plans to move in. If he rents out a room now, the counterparty is a licensee, not a tenant. If so, there isn't a tenancy, and therefore there is no obligation to register a tenancy.

The element under discussion is whether he can convert a tenant that is over-holding into a licensee by moving in. If the conversion is legal, the counterparty can be ejected legally.

Muddying the water is that there may not have been a tenancy in the first place.

Greenmachine

slowjoe17 wrote: »

PRTB is the Private Residential _Tenancies_ Board. OP is the owner and plans to move in. If he rents out a room now, the counterparty is a licensee, not a tenant. If so, there isn't a tenancy, and therefore there is no obligation to register a tenancy.

The element under discussion is whether he can convert a tenant that is over-holding into a licensee by moving in. If the conversion is legal, the counterparty can be ejected legally.

Muddying the water is that there may not have been a tenancy in the first place.

You might be right none of us are the the one at logger heads with the landlord. I don't know if I missed it but I as now guessing that one of issues is that the tenant didn't affect notice that he intended to enact part 4 tenancy after a fixed term lease if a lease existed. I out at this point, the tenant of the OP by the sound of things is hasn't cooperated with due process either. Sound like this one is in a murky area.

TheChizler

Part IV is automatic, and even with it a tenant can be compelled to leave if a landlord needs the property. What confuses this is the landlord doesn't seem to need the entire property as he didn't take vacant possession, he just took an empty room.

Greenmachine

TheChizler wrote: »

Part IV is automatic, and even with it a tenant can be compelled to leave if a landlord needs the property. What confuses this is the landlord doesn't seem to need the entire property as he didn't take vacant possession, he just took an empty room.

That's my understanding too. I was pretty exhausted last night, and neglected to go through the the entire thread. Some of my previous post have been worded a little badly I think from mistyping. I am renting on part 4 myself. I think the only way that notify the landlord of your intention to stay has an affect is if he is at a financial loss, e.g. if he engages with a letting agent, takes time off from work to show prospective tenants the place etc. My impression is that none of this has happened. In a 1 bed somehow I don't think my landlord is going to do the same as the OP unless he is hoping for 3 in a bed, in which case he would be out of luck.

Butters1979

I know there's a lot more going on, but surely if the tenant stopped paying rent the first thing to do was to proceed with eviction for non-payment of rent.

Anyway, this whole thing seems very messy. I seriously doubt legally you could change a person from tenant to lodger just by moving into the other room, as this would be a forced change outside the control of the tenant. Although I must admit I have no idea what the law actually is for this situation. Has anyone got an answer. If the OP has broken the law they have essentially given legitimacy to what was initially a frivolous PRTB complaint and illegal withholding of rent.