Luas strike general thread (mandatory: read warning in post #1)

end of the road

PeadarCo wrote: »

There are plenty of unemployed people who would gladly take the jobs on offer. As for only having a job for 5 years, well welcome to the real world. At the end of the day if it deliver the best value for the taxpayer its what should be done.

so, just to be clear? if it delivers value for the tax payer, it would be fine to scrap tupe and have people leaving, re-applying, or others being employed (meaning having to go through the process) every 5 years, with a possible risk of disruption? rather then a simple transfer of everything to the new operator?

PeadarCo

end of the road wrote: »

There are plenty of unemployed people who would gladly take the jobs on offer. As for only having a job for 5 years, well welcome to the real world. At the end of the day if it deliver the best value for the taxpayer its what should be done.

so, just to be clear? if it delivers value for the tax payer, it would be fine to scrap tupe and have people leaving, re-applying, or others being employed (meaning having to go through the process) every 5 years, with a possible risk of disruption? rather then a simple transfer of everything to the new operator?

If another operator feels it can get workers to do the same quality job for lower cost with different employees I'd have no issue with changes in employees every couple of years. It the natural way of the world. That's how pretty much every organisation outside the public sector operates. Its all about tax payer value. That means not paying anybody whether it be drivers or suppliers of whats needed to run the LUAS any more than is needed.

Now LUAS drivers are perfectly entitled to go on strike and look for better wages but surely anybody who's looking at taking on the tender at renewal time would seriously consider taking on some new drivers.Remember for most drivers it'd take time to retrain in jobs outside the LUAS and get the salary they're currently getting for driving the LUAS. The drivers are very well paid for their limited/non transferable skill base.

The big advantage of the tender system is that it counteracts the natural monopoly has and gives the government a chance to obtain terms most favourable to the taxpayer not the management/drivers/suppliers of LUAS.

All public services should be run in the customers interests not the workers. Thats the reason why RyanAir carries nearly as many passengers in a month as AerLingus does in a year. They focused on the people that matter.

end of the road

PeadarCo wrote: »

If another operator feels it can get workers to do the same quality job for lower cost with different employees I'd have no issue with changes in employees every couple of years. It the natural way of the world. That's how pretty much every organisation outside the public sector operates. Its all about tax payer value. That means not paying anybody whether it be drivers or suppliers of whats needed to run the LUAS any more than is needed.

Now LUAS drivers are perfectly entitled to go on strike and look for better wages but surely anybody who's looking at taking on the tender at renewal time would seriously consider taking on some new drivers.Remember for most drivers it'd take time to retrain in jobs outside the LUAS and get the salary they're currently getting for driving the LUAS. The drivers are very well paid for their limited/non transferable skill base.

The big advantage of the tender system is that it counteracts the natural monopoly has and gives the government a chance to obtain terms most favourable to the taxpayer not the management/drivers/suppliers of LUAS.

All public services should be run in the customers interests not the workers. Thats the reason why RyanAir carries nearly as many passengers in a month as AerLingus does in a year. They focused on the people that matter.

so, again to confirm. you would have no issue if your idea went wrong and we had potential disruption because lets say, potential operators felt it wasn't worth training staff until they get the contract? "quality job for lower cost" "terms favourable to the tax payer" "its the natural way of the world" "tax payer value" . none of that means anything, as i believe your way is risky compared to tupe.
luas has to run continuously between operators. it doesn't suddenly take a break at the end of each contract, so staff will be needed all the time.

PeadarCo

end of the road wrote:

so, again to confirm. you would have no issue if your idea went wrong and we had potential disruption because lets say, potential operators felt it wasn't worth training staff until they get the contract? "quality job for lower cost" "terms favourable to the tax payer" "its the natural way of the world" "tax payer value" . none of that means anything, as i believe your way is risky compared to tupe. luas has to run continuously between operators. it doesn't suddenly take a break at the end of each contract, so staff will be needed all the time.

end of the road wrote:

so, again to confirm. you would have no issue if your idea went wrong and we had potential disruption because lets say, potential operators felt it wasn't worth training staff until they get the contract? "quality job for lower cost" "terms favourable to the tax payer" "its the natural way of the world" "tax payer value" . none of that means anything, as i believe your way is risky compared to tupe. luas has to run continuously between operators. it doesn't suddenly take a break at the end of each contract, so staff will be needed all the time.

There'd be no need for the company to let everyone go. I'd imagine alot of drivers would renew there terms unless the new proivder offered a severe reduction in pay and conditions.

The skill of driving the Luas is not exactly transferable within Ireland given that there's only one operator. The drivers need the company just as much as any provider needs them. There aren't many jobs paying 42k with the relatively low level of training required. Most Luas drivers won't be walk to walk out and get another job at that money.

I appreciate its change and people and unions naturally oppose it. All I'd ask for is that all public service contracts be put out to competitive tender. Employee wages naturally would be factored in by whose evers tendering. The process isn't exactly rocket science.

PeadarCo

end of the road wrote:

so, again to confirm. you would have no issue if your idea went wrong and we had potential disruption because lets say, potential operators felt it wasn't worth training staff until they get the contract? "quality job for lower cost" "terms favourable to the tax payer" "its the natural way of the world" "tax payer value" . none of that means anything, as i believe your way is risky compared to tupe. luas has to run continuously between operators. it doesn't suddenly take a break at the end of each contract, so staff will be needed all the time.

The actions of the Luas workers harm genuinely vulnerable workers. Their greed would make any company/organization think twice before dealing with a union. Or at the very least provide a very big excuse.

end of the road

PeadarCo wrote: »

There'd be no need for the company to let everyone go. I'd imagine alot of drivers would renew there terms unless the new proivder offered a severe reduction in pay and conditions.
The skill of driving the Luas is not exactly transferable within Ireland given that there's only one operator. The drivers need the company just as much as any provider needs them. There aren't many jobs paying 42k with the relatively low level of training required. Most Luas drivers won't be walk to walk out and get another job at that money.

so effectively the tupe system is fine then. after all staff can decide not to tupe and change jobs if they wish. all tupe does is insure those who want to transfer over are transferred, that the company cannot refuse to take them. seems right to me.

PeadarCo wrote: »

I appreciate its change and people and unions naturally oppose it. All I'd ask for is that all public service contracts be put out to competitive tender. Employee wages naturally would be factored in by whose evers tendering. The process isn't exactly rocket science.

no it isn't rocket science, but long term i don't see any benefits.

PeadarCo

end of the road wrote:

its not no, but i see no benefit long term in doing it.. i believe it to be much easier to force improvements in what we have got.

When it comes to dealing with unions the Irish government is a disaster no matter who is in power. Ryanair visa a vi Aer Lingus being the best example.

The only thing the current system does is that it enables unions/workers to blackmail the public at minimal consequence to the people striking. For most people outside government monopolies go on strike your company could go bust or at the very least have to downsize. That could cost a person their job. Transparent public tendering brings some reality to the situation as well as reassuring the public that they're getting value for money

QueenOfWexico

36,000 Minimum on Year 1 with no leaving cert and a clean driving licence?? Sorry but is this for real?

After finishing school, paying thousands of euro for a 4 year teaching course, I'll earn around 27k for my first year's service.. don't even get me started on the nurses.

Are they being treated unfairly or is there some really stressful aspect to the role?? Someone please enlighten me if there's something I'm missing here

Stonedpilot

Seen this letter was sent to Transdev management, doing the rounds on social media today. I agree with the letter entirely

Hi I noticed your company has trouble at the moment as employees who drive the Luas want a large pay increase with some requesting a 52% pay increase. This has come to be a major inconvenience to the company as these drivers are currently striking and costing the company millions as they seek to hold your company to ransom to receive their €60,000 plus requested salaries. Well I have a solution to this problem, I for one would work for the current starting salary of €37,000 or less and gladly agree to this payment. I know I might have to do five weeks training but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. Indeed I could really help out your company as I know many many highly intelligent capable unemployed people willing to work for €37,000 a year and we GARANTEE we will not go on strike and hold the company to ransom in search of €60,000 salaries. Think of it this way, you get loyal employees willing to except contract agreements and be happy with the generous salary of between €30,000 to €40,000 whom will never betray you as we are content having a good paying job and know what it is like not to have one therfore we would make humble, grateful employees who let's be honest would be better than the current ungrateful, greedy, and selfish employees you have. I would love an opportunity to work with Transdev. I include my contact details and look forward to your response.Finally to say, I'd be very happy with the €37,000 per annum salary!. Yours faithfully, unemployed Adam.

PeadarCo

end of the road wrote: »

so effectively the tupe system is fine then. after all staff can decide not to tupe and change jobs if they wish. all tupe does is insure those who want to transfer over are transferred, that the company cannot refuse to take them. seems right to me.
.

The thing is if the company in charge losses the Luas contract the staff either transfer abroad, go with the new service provider or find a job that doesn't involve driving a tram. Again how many drivers will be able to walk into a job paying 42k.

Driving the Luas is a very specific skillset in Ireland. In another thread the staff turnover was quoted as 2%. That doesn't suggest a group of workers in high demand. So the option for most workers would be to join the new service provider or go unemployed.

The turnover rate also suggests staff are being treated very well.

Infini

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Seen this letter was sent to Transdev management, doing the rounds on social media today. I agree with the letter entirely

Hi I noticed your company has trouble at the moment as employees who drive the Luas want a large pay increase with some requesting a 52% pay increase. This has come to be a major inconvenience to the company as these drivers are currently striking and costing the company millions as they seek to hold your company to ransom to receive their €60,000 plus requested salaries. Well I have a solution to this problem, I for one would work for the current starting salary of €37,000 or less and gladly agree to this payment. I know I might have to do five weeks training but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. Indeed I could really help out your company as I know many many highly intelligent capable unemployed people willing to work for €37,000 a year and we GARANTEE we will not go on strike and hold the company to ransom in search of €60,000 salaries. Think of it this way, you get loyal employees willing to except contract agreements and be happy with the generous salary of between €30,000 to €40,000 whom will never betray you as we are content having a good paying job and know what it is like not to have one therfore we would make humble, grateful employees who let's be honest would be better than the current ungrateful, greedy, and selfish employees you have. I would love an opportunity to work with Transdev. I include my contact details and look forward to your response.Finally to say, I'd be very happy with the €37,000 per annum salary!. Yours faithfully, unemployed Adam.

Considering
1) hes basically leaving himself open in a sense to being taken advantage of down the line and
2) its scab labour and thats the kind of stuff that turns things nasty and vicious and is a clear attempt to exploit the situation
I would take a bit of a dim view of it.

fullstop

Infini2 wrote: »

Considering
1) hes basically leaving himself open in a sense to being taken advantage of down the line and
2) its scab labour and thats the kind of stuff that turns things nasty and vicious and is a clear attempt to exploit the situation
I would take a bit of a dim view of it.

"Scab labour"? :rolleyes:

KD345

Can anyone provide some background to this dispute. I have tried following the various news articles but I can't help thinking I'm missing something. I don't feel the drivers suddenly decided to ask for a 50% wage increase, yet this is the line which is being thrown around. When you read articles like the one above, which quotes various wages for transport operators, I don't think it's painting a true picture. For example, the wage figure they have for Dublin Bus is different to what is currently advertised for new bus drivers on the Dublin Bus website. They say the first year wage is €28-32k but that seems to be for a 4 day week, and according to the Dublin Bus website a driver working 5 days has the potential to earn up to €40k with shift rates etc.

How did it come to this situation where both parties seem to be miles apart on reaching any agreement. Did something change when Transdev won the contract last year?

Like most people, when I hear of a tram driver wanting a 50% increase I instantly think it's crazy, but part of me thinks it can't be as dramatic as that. If anyone here can offer an impartial review of things it would be great!

cdebru

n97 mini wrote: »

Saw this on twitter. Interesting read.

I love these wage charts because they are such a moveable feast, want to undermine a luas pay claim then Dublin bus drivers wage are 28-32k, but want to complain about fare increases then Dublin bus wages are north of 53k on "average" .
Similarly for Irish rail, no so long ago Irish rail drivers were earning over 70k apparently now they are on a maximum of 55k.
Lies, damn lies and statistics.

tabbey

KD345, 50% pay demand is crazy. It is outrageous. The drivers are being led into a cul-de-sac, by psychopathic troublemakers.

Luas started in 2004, during the boom. If applicants thought the pay & benefits package was attractive then, it must have been.

Since then, we have had the worst recession for eighty years, most public service workers have had significant pay cuts. Some private sector employees have had severe pay cuts. It seems that Luas staff still have their boom level salaries, but now want more.

They are either greedy f***ers, or fools who want to lose their jobs.

There are thousands of good people who would love to have these jobs. For their sake, and that of frugal living citizens around the country, The pay claim must be resisted by management, government and WRC.

It would be better to liquidate the present operation, and set up a replacement service, than give in to this blackmail.

Peppa Pig

Ah c'mon now. As well as a large payrise they also want

- 10% bonus
- Free GP
- Higher sick pay (they already get full pay for seven weeks)
- Improved maternity benefit
- Death in benefit of five times salary (currently three)
- 10% pension contribution after 10 years (currently 5%)
- 27 days holidays (currently 24)
- All over time at double time (currently first 4 hours during the week at time and a half)

and a max drive time of 3.25 hours to include prep time (currently 3.75 hrs excl prep time)

Here's the wee lambs explaining why they need all this

They have the neck to say they are low paid :rolleyes:
The driver says they are assaulted every day (yet he was only spat at once) but he doesn't mind this providing they get paid for it.

cdebru

PeadarCo wrote: »

Heres the think I don't have an issue with unions in general and consider them to be a very valuable ally for genuinely vulnerable workers. LUAS workers are incredibly well paid for what they do.

Its the attitude espoused by you that a union/strike can never be wrong endangers the rights livelyhood of vulnerable workers. They've provided companies a very effective argument to not recognise them.

Also anybody who thinks you can't get rid of unions hasn't made attention to developments in the private sector over the last 20/30 years.

In your opinion they are incredibly well paid, they have however come to a different conclusion, and since afaik you don't drive a luas tram, I'm more inclined to accept their opinion than yours.

People don't forgo a 6.5% bonus and 4 days pay on a whim, people don't vote to strike just for the crack, the media is doing what the media does, it takes some facts, ignores others and paints them in a particular light, can anyone for example explain, how luas drivers want parity with train drivers which equates to a 50% plus pay rise, but the media can produce a chart in which if tram drivers got what they wanted, they would be earning nearly 10k more than a train driver ?
When did parity become 10k more? I thought parity meant equal ?
The media is as usual playing us for fools.

I never said a company can't be union free, but getting rid of established unions in established companies is more difficult, and you certainly can't ban unions, do you seriously think if transdev decided to not recognise siptu tomorrow morning it would magically fix everything and siptu would pack up and leave ?

uck51js9zml2yt

Infini2 wrote: »

Considering
1) hes basically leaving himself open in a sense to being taken advantage of down the line and
2) its scab labour and thats the kind of stuff that turns things nasty and vicious and is a clear attempt to exploit the situation
I would take a bit of a dim view of it.

Scab labour ? Are you serious?
I'd bite transdevs arm off for a 37k salary.

Where do I apply?


As for the intimidation they feel they receive... They are in enclosed cabins...how protected can they get?

Peppa Pig

cdebru wrote: »

People don't forgo a 6.5% bonus and 4 days pay on a whim,

Do you think it's possible that part of the settlement will be the restoration of the 6.5% bonus for this year?
Of course it will.

Bowlardo

Luas drivers are an absolute disgrace. If they thought they were getting abuse before imagine what going to happen after this and rightly so

cdebru

Jake Purring Stone wrote: »

Scab labour ? Are you serious?
I'd bite transdevs arm off for a 37k salary.

Where do I apply?


As for the intimidation they feel they receive... They are in enclosed cabins...how protected can they get?

Why haven't you applied before ?

PeadarCo

cdebru wrote:

People don't forgo a 6.5% bonus and 4 days pay on a whim, people don't vote to strike just for the crack, the media is doing what the media does, it takes some facts, ignores others and paints them in a particular light, can anyone for example explain, how luas drivers want parity with train drivers which equates to a 50% plus pay rise, but the media can produce a chart in which if tram drivers got what they wanted, they would be earning nearly 10k more than a train driver ? When did parity become 10k more? I thought parity meant equal ? The media is as usual playing us for fools.

Most people will forgo a bonus like that to get a 50% increase in pay and extras.

Why should Luas drivers get paid the same as train drivers?

The job of the government is to get value for taxpayers. If its possible to get people to do the same job for less arguably the talks should be about wage cuts not rises. When people talk about cutting waste they've talking about things like the salaries and jobs of public servants including Luas drivers

cdebru

Bowlardo wrote: »

Luas drivers are an absolute disgrace. If they thought they were getting abuse before imagine what going to happen after this and rightly so

Ah the keyboard warrior, where would the internet be without them.

cdebru

PeadarCo wrote: »

Most people will forgo a bonus like that to get a 50% increase in pay and extras.

Why should Luas drivers get paid the same as train drivers?

The job of the government is to get value for taxpayers. If its possible to get people to do the same job for less arguably the talks should be about wage cuts not rises. When people talk about cutting waste they've talking about things like the salaries and jobs of public servants including Luas drivers

No guarantee they will get anything, or that they will get enough to make up what they have lost this year.

I don't think they should have parity with heavy rail drivers but if you don't ask etc etc.

Haha yeah pay cuts all round, let's start at the bottom, oh wait its a fixed price contract, cutting luas drivers wages would save a big fat zero.

PeadarCo

cdebru wrote:

Haha yeah pay cuts all round, let's start at the bottom, oh wait its a fixed price contract, cutting luas drivers wages would save a big fat zero.

Agreed in the grand scheme of things. But if the idea of marginal gains was applied to the public sector as a whole you'd end up with savings.

That said I'm not for pay cuts for the sake of them. There's plenty of people ie gardai and nurse's that start on Substantially less than a luas worker and have far more critical to the state.

PeadarCo

cdebru wrote:

I don't think they should have parity with heavy rail drivers but if you don't ask etc etc.

Luas drivers are perfectly entitled to go on strike and unions are free to argue for the crazy wages. Just don't look for sympathy from the general public.

cdebru

PeadarCo wrote: »

Agreed in the grand scheme of things. But if the idea of marginal gains was applied to the public sector as a whole you'd end up with savings.

That said I'm not for pay cuts for the sake of them. There's plenty of people ie gardai and nurse's that start on Substantially less than a luas worker and have far more critical to the state.

PeadarCo wrote: »

Luas drivers are perfectly entitled to go on strike and unions are free to argue for the crazy wages. Just don't look for sympathy from the general public.

The fact that others are worse off doesn't mean you cut others till you bring them down to the very bottom, I agree nurses and gardai are underpaid but that doesn't make others overpaid it just highlights the problem when workers can't strike.

I don't believe they are looking for sympathy not that it would matter one jot anyway.

Infini

PeadarCo wrote: »

The job of the government is to get value for taxpayers. If its possible to get people to do the same job for less arguably the talks should be about wage cuts not rises. When people talk about cutting waste they've talking about things like the salaries and jobs of public servants including Luas drivers

I'm sorry but the job of government it actually to run the country right and not for their own self interests which pretty much the entire establishment has been guilty of doing for the last few DECADES. Theres people also plenty of examples of people appointed to the various jobs in the health, transport and other departments that SHOULD NOT BE THERE. They got in over people who actually could do the damn job right because they knew someone in politics so I wouldnt go there.

Lets also be equally clear here what your advocating is scab labour and race to the bottom. The EXACT kind of things that should be fought expecially since people with opinions like that are usually only interested in their own self-interests. If you want it another way: HATERS GONNA HATE.

The travelling public is inconvenienced? Sure it sucks and its a pain but its not the end of the world. Its given notice well in advance for people to make alternative plans if it comes to it its not like wildcat strikes where the workers go striking all of a sudden because they feel like it that day.

cdebru wrote: »

The fact that others are worse off doesn't mean you cut others till you bring them down to the very bottom, I agree nurses and gardai are underpaid but that doesn't make others overpaid it just highlights the problem when workers can't strike.

I don't believe they are looking for sympathy not that it would matter one jot anyway.

I'd agree with this. In the last 20 years or so people have become very self centered and the likes of social media (only the lowest form of communication) makes the trolls and ragers worse. End of the day the nurses and guards are in an even crappier position but all the supposed sympathy doesn't help them in the long run. Sad truth is the only way to getting things sorted is to be serious and strike until an acceptable deal is made.

I doubt they really want 50% more wages flat out theres more than likely a more reasonable amount being sought. Luas is light rail so its possible what they're looking for is conditions similar to the 3 state transport companies and pay somewhere in between the bus and rail. That newspaper quote looking for 60k + is hyperbole and dramaticising only the other week one of the papers was saying IR drivers were on 60k which is a complete load of bull, they probably pulled it from someone who was doing a ton of overtime that week.

PeadarCo

Infini2 wrote:

Lets also be equally clear here what your advocating is scab labour and race to the bottom. The EXACT kind of things that should be fought expecially since people with opinions like that are usually only interested in their own self-interests. If you want it another way: HATERS GONNA HATE.

All I'm asking that the taxpayer payer get value for money and staff justify their wages. A very simple concept and the bedrock of any well organisation.

That fact that you consider the idea of taxpayers getting value for money as "scab labour" says more about yourself than anything else.

PeadarCo

cdebru wrote:

The fact that others are worse off doesn't mean you cut others till you bring them down to the very bottom, I agree nurses and gardai are underpaid but that doesn't make others overpaid it just highlights the problem when workers can't strike.

A question for you why should the government or anybody else pay above the living wage if they don't need to, to attract staff of sufficient quality to do a job? As we've found out over the last couple of years the government doesn't have a bottomless pit of money. There are plenty of people who need help a lot more than luas drivers.

end of the road

tabbey wrote: »

There are thousands of good people who would love to have these jobs.

so what if they're are? thats not anyone elses problem. always thousands who would supposibly love the job but when opportunities existed how many applied?

tabbey wrote: »

For their sake, and that of frugal living citizens around the country, The pay claim must be resisted by management, government and WRC.

others being unemployed is not a reason to resist something. this is a dispute between a company and its staff, the unemployed are irrelevant to it.

tabbey wrote: »

It would be better to liquidate the present operation, and set up a replacement service, than give in to this blackmail.

and how long would that take? people complaining about a couple of days striking yet would rather more disruption. makes no sense to me.

Infini

PeadarCo wrote: »

All I'm asking that the taxpayer payer get value for money and staff justify their wages. A very simple concept and the bedrock of any well organisation.

That fact that you consider the idea of taxpayers getting value for money as "scab labour" says more about yourself than anything else.

"Value for taxpayer" is more and more a copout excuse to try and pay less without any real reaso n. Theres room for improvement in any job but it has to be done reasonably.

As for your little comment on scab labour its exactly what it is. Advocating bringing in people on lower wages to do someone elses job is exploitation and nothing else. So dont try using that reasoning.

end of the road

Bowlardo wrote: »

Luas drivers are an absolute disgrace. If they thought they were getting abuse before imagine what going to happen after this and rightly so

no, not rightly so at all. i would imagine most people will continue to behave themselves as they always have regardless of their opinion on luas staff. if anybody does abuse luas staff, they should be removed from a tram, and if needs be banned from using the service.

trellheim

Sure it sucks and its a pain but its not the end of the world. Its given notice well in advance for people to make alternative plans

fk sake theres some entitled knobs on here. Do you not see the people on the low wage who go in and out from Tallaght or wherever to a low paid job in the city centre on the LUAS - there is little alternative cos DB dont run many buses where the LUAS goes any more. How do you think that girl feels about these dipsticks wanting 50% more when she's on her last late warning cos the child still needs to go to the creche and she needs to get to the job ?

cdebru

PeadarCo wrote: »

A question for you why should the government or anybody else pay above the living wage if they don't need to, to attract staff of sufficient quality to do a job? As we've found out over the last couple of years the government doesn't have a bottomless pit of money. There are plenty of people who need help a lot more than luas drivers.

Who says you could get sufficient quality staff at a lower wage ?

Infini

trellheim wrote: »

Do you not see the people on the low wage who go in and out from Tallaght or wherever to a low paid job in the city centre on the LUAS - there is little alternative cos DB dont run many buses where the LUAS goes any more. How do you think that girl feels about these dipsticks wanting 50% more when she's on her last late warning cos the child still needs to go to the creche and she needs to get to the job ?

Besides the fact that would be her problem if she doesnt make alternative arrangements when theres warning of it happening it also speaks poorly of her employer as well if they cant even make leeway for circumstances beyond her control. Regardless poor argument.

Peppa Pig

Infini2 wrote: »

that would be her problem if she doesnt make alternative arrangements when theres warning of it happening

Care to name a few alternatives for a low paid worker?

If everyone could make alternative arrangements that don't cost time or money then there would be no need for the luas.

So it's the publics fault they are delayed/out of pocket/losing hours waiting because notice was given. No blame apportioned to the guys who actually withdrew the service in the first place.

Interesting point of view.

suicide_circus

I love the notion that those who take issue with the Luas drivers' exorbitant claims are by extension advocating a "race to the bottom". A blatant and paper thin strawman argument which no one is buying lads.

I support any worker who is being maltreated, abused, kicked around, underappreciated or has any legitimate grievance or grounds for complaint. The Luas drivers are suffering none of these. They are being paid a decent living wage above the national industrial average and are actually doing quite well considering the level of training they did and stress they're under. They have been receiving increments and bonuses despite the recession and despite company losses. They have not been asked to change work practice's or increase productivity and the company has stuck by their commitments and even offered a 3% pay increase.

Their claim for a +50% pay rise has no foundation in reality and smacks of little more than a cash grab. Since they offer no incentive to the company by way of increased productivity we can only assume that they expect the general public to foot the bill by way of fare increases.

I believe the drives have been badly advised and seriously let down by SIPTU who seem to have got this one very very wrong.

PeadarCo

cdebru wrote:

Who says you could get sufficient quality staff at a lower wage ?

Judging from the papers all you need is a clean drivers license. Not exactly a demanding minimum requirement for the Luas. The people who run the Luas obviously feel any other skill is easily trainable

So ye I'd be very confident there'd be people out there who could do the job for less including many of the people unemployed. It'd be a particularly suitable job for the longterm unemployed given the lack of upfront skills needed.

Infini

Peppa Pig wrote: »

Care to name a few alternatives for a low paid worker?

If everyone could make alternative arrangements that don't cost time or money then there would be no need for the luas.

So it's the publics fault they are delayed/out of pocket/losing hours waiting because notice was given. No blame apportioned to the guys who actually withdrew the service in the first place.

Interesting point of view.

The bus or getting a bike are options. Theres also asking for a lift from a friend if possible.

The public is being given notice that stike action is occuring. The workers are well within their rights to strike which is usually the last option when all other avenues are exhausted.

You can either be mad and rant about it till you feel better or not or simply do what everyone else HAS to do: deal with the situation and make alternative arrangements as necessary.

Peppa Pig

Infini2 wrote: »

The bus or getting a bike are options. Theres also asking for a lift from a friend if possible.

A bus would be grand providing they go at the frequency needed, to the creche and work- you know they don't, that why people use the Luas.

Getting a lift from a friend - which one - the one with time to drive into the city morning and afternoon or the one going to work themselves?

And a bike - dropping a child off to creche on a bike? Not really an option is it?, never mind the expense of having to buy a bike for a few days.

But like you say, the Luas staff must be thinking "I'm all right Jack" looking for my 50% rise and 10% bonus and 27 days holidays etc etc. It's up to the public to ensure they are not inconvenienced. We don't give a toss.

But if I don't give a toss about a ridiculous pay claim I get accused of supporting a race to the bottom.

Sweet Jesus....

end of the road

Peppa Pig wrote: »

And a bike - dropping a child off to creche on a bike? Not really an option is it?, never mind the expense of having to buy a bike for a few days.

why isn't it an option. people out the country years ago had to do exactly that, take a bike or walk to school. it was that or nothing. granted i'm not suggesting people should take a bike, but it is doable. you would get to keep that bike forever, you could go cycling down the country during the holidays and so fourth. strike or no strike it would be a worth while investment.

howiya

end of the road wrote: »

why isn't it an option. people out the country years ago had to do exactly that, take a bike or walk to school. it was that or nothing. granted i'm not suggesting people should take a bike, but it is doable. you would get to keep that bike forever, you could go cycling down the country during the holidays and so fourth. strike or no strike it would be a worth while investment.

Ah yes, the girl who probably can't afford a taxi to work should go out and buy a bike

syklops

end of the road wrote: »

why isn't it an option. people out the country years ago had to do exactly that, take a bike or walk to school. it was that or nothing. granted i'm not suggesting people should take a bike, but it is doable. you would get to keep that bike forever, you could go cycling down the country during the holidays and so fourth. strike or no strike it would be a worth while investment.

You're right. Lets give up on public transport altogether. Its too much hassle. The money saved on no longer building and running trams and buses could be saved and given to every citizen to go buy bikes and cars. Although, instead of a 50% percent increase, the Luas drivers would get a 100% decrease, but Im sure they'd be happy with that right?

trellheim

Besides the fact that would be her problem if she doesnt make alternative arrangements when theres warning of it happening it also speaks poorly of her employer as well if they cant even make leeway for circumstances beyond her control. Regardless poor argument.

The real world isnt knocking on your door at all, is it ? Great being a keyboard warrior while people are actually trying to make a life

n97 mini

Peppa Pig wrote: »

Care to name a few alternatives for a low paid worker?

I have seen it suggested here before that people just switch to taxis when there are public transport strikes.

In other words, let them eat cake.

monument

As with all warning, this applies to all posters:

trellheim wrote: »

The real world isnt knocking on your door at all, is it ? Great being a keyboard warrior while people are actually trying to make a life

Play the post and not the poster.

-- modrarator

myshirt

I am seriously onside for the 'Put the Brick on the Accelerator' option.

We're all but there on self driving cars, who have to make more decisions than a tram would have to. That'd soften their cough.

Brendan Bendar

This dispute has taken a turn for the worst, in fact it reminds one of the bad old days in Aer Lingus.

Seems like there is an upsurge in 'toilet breaks' which has disrupted the service even further.

Looks like the parties are miles apart in outlook,and this one will take a lot of ' banging heads' together to get sorted.

Seems there is a bit of a 'solo run' by some on the Union side out there?

n97 mini

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Seems like there is an upsurge in 'toilet breaks' which has disrupted the service even further.

I read that. More toilet breaks in one day that the previous month, and SIPTU deny any knowledge.